Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[blackcat]

Re:

I'm liking the Dawg now.

He's becoming a bit of a patron; and there's a touch of the Indurains about him. Keeps it polite, diplomatic....but that belies a ruthless edge. DB is in the way of a 4th Tour - he must be taken down early (now).

Initially I hated Sky because of Froome's rise - but now the play between them is intriguing; he seems more like the outsider who has played his hand to perfection.

In all of this, there's nothing on Froome! It's brilliant, and one must say, chapeu.

you reckon Wiggins wont leak like a sieve against him. 2013 Ventoux? A rider using a motor. He better hope Wigans has no suspicion Froome used it in Wigans 2012 year.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

I tend to agree it's Froome; we know he's not too keen on Brailsford in the first place, and it could be his (slim) chance of getting out of this debacle if it turns out it's him continuing his call for cleaner cycling (...) or at least that's what I think he thinks or Michelle thinks or whadevadefuzz...

keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

An expedient sacrifice of Brailsford, you can bet that the leaks on Froome will start immediately. If Brailsford and Wigans have their assets and payout secure, will they not start whispering campaigns against Froome. You know Lance would do that. So, why are Brailsford and Wigans above being Froome's greatest enemies. This is the calculation Michelle and Dawg need to make. And it is like Nash' Game Theory, not easily formulate, prisoner dilemma. Would Brailsford mitigate damage to Wigans. And mitigate damage Wigans may do if he goes nuclear. What happens if both get scapegoated and go nuclear and attempt to bring Froome too. Would Wigans be less dangerous if Brailsford takes the fall too. Froome must be pretty nervous.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Sky

the tingling . ... on the nips.

#crawfish.

 

[Sorped]

Re: Re:

I tend to agree it's Froome; we know he's not too keen on Brailsford in the first place, and it could be his (slim) chance of getting out of this debacle if it turns out it's him continuing his call for cleaner cycling (...) or at least that's what I think he thinks or Michelle thinks or whadevadefuzz...

keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

An expedient sacrifice of Brailsford, you can bet that the leaks on Froome will start immediately. If Brailsford and Wigans have their assets and payout secure, will they not start whispering campaigns against Froome. You know Lance would do that. So, why are Brailsford and Wigans above being Froome's greatest enemies. This is the calculation Michelle and Dawg need to make. And it is like Nash' Game Theory, not easily formulate, prisoner dilemma. Would Brailsford mitigate damage to Wigans. And mitigate damage Wigans may do if he goes nuclear. What happens if both get scapegoated and go nuclear and attempt to bring Froome too. Would Wigans be less dangerous if Brailsford takes the fall too. Froome must be pretty nervous.

Whichever way things are tangled up, Freeman is a goner and I think Brailsford will be sacrificed too. His incessant attempts to convince us of that dog he doesn't own, it will be enough for someone at some point. I mean DB can only get more ridiculous from here.

 

[Electress]

Whilst I believe Froome would happily feed Brailsford to the snakes, I think he is sneaky and more likely to stir discontent amongst younger and more insecure riders who will do the dirty work for him. But then, I despise Froomie and so am not the best judge.

Brailsford will play hardball to negotiate a return for his departure but ultimately he's got a lot still to lose and probably will come back in another role if things don't get worse, so I think he'll keep Schtum. Wiggo would defo be an issue for Froome as there's already no love lost, but so is Freeman, also Sutton, also Cope. Moreover, there's clearly a mole / source at the heart of the team. Got to wonder what more revelations there are to come.

Nothing will convince me Hart didn't choose his words very carefully. He'd be a candidate for me.

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Re: Re:

Perhaps Sky can merge with Vaughters' team

This is a great Idea. Maybe Bobby J. and Lance A. can be the DS and Assistant DS.

On a more pointed part. Where is Greg, Betsy, and the rest of the gang stand on all this. USA cycling fans would like to know. So far all I hear are Parakeets.

Betsy and the Greg have been busy spreading lies about Lance using a motor. The real question is where is Race Radio and his imaginary tail winds? You know, the ones RR made up because admitting that Sky is doping would make Lance just one dot in a long and continuing line of drug users.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Perhaps Sky can merge with Vaughters' team

This is a great Idea. Maybe Bobby J. and Lance A. can be the DS and Assistant DS.

On a more pointed part. Where is Greg, Betsy, and the rest of the gang stand on all this. USA cycling fans would like to know. So far all I hear are Parakeets.

Betsy and the Greg have been busy spreading lies about Lance using a motor. The real question is where is Race Radio and his imaginary tail winds? You know, the ones RR made up because admitting that Sky is doping would make Lance just one dot in a long and continuing line of drug users.

There were tailwinds, Leinders is not Ferrari, there's no hospital room, comparing frrome's time up Ventoux to Mayo's ITT and so on. It was Grade A trolling, made worse by lobbying mods endlessly to ban members whom disagreed with the magical mystery tail wind theorem. And who could forget lunch with Richie Porte looking him in the eyes and declaring he wasn't a doper.

Looking back, seeing the way Cookson and Sky have conducted themselves Lance is looking more and more civil.

 

[The Hegelian]

Re: Re:

I'm liking the Dawg now.

He's becoming a bit of a patron; and there's a touch of the Indurains about him. Keeps it polite, diplomatic....but that belies a ruthless edge. DB is in the way of a 4th Tour - he must be taken down early (now).

Initially I hated Sky because of Froome's rise - but now the play between them is intriguing; he seems more like the outsider who has played his hand to perfection.

In all of this, there's nothing on Froome! It's brilliant, and one must say, chapeu.

you reckon Wiggins wont leak like a sieve against him. 2013 Ventoux? A rider using a motor. He better hope Wigans has no suspicion Froome used it in Wigans 2012 year.

Well yes, if Wiggins goes out Landis style - and starts speaking about epo etc - then the whole Sky well and truly falls in and we get another four asterixed TDF's.....with Nibali of **Astana** standing firm as the one clean win of the era - there would be a certain perverse beauty in that I suppose. Vino for clean cycling.

But I forsee a political impulse to save good old Wiggo - he is after all a sir, a national hero and super popular. But they need a famous head to cut off, and jettison away - the poisoned source, after which, the brand can re-emerge in a new form.

That head has to be Brailsford. Just like Hird at EFC. There needs to be a head on stake; and we will all feel sorry for him when he ends up where he ends up.

 

[yaco]

The tweets from Sky Riders have substantiated Benson's article. Only one or two tweets from Sky riders at PN.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

flash memory: How did they do that?
:Question:

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I'm liking the Dawg now.

He's becoming a bit of a patron; and there's a touch of the Indurains about him. Keeps it polite, diplomatic....but that belies a ruthless edge. DB is in the way of a 4th Tour - he must be taken down early (now).

Initially I hated Sky because of Froome's rise - but now the play between them is intriguing; he seems more like the outsider who has played his hand to perfection.

In all of this, there's nothing on Froome! It's brilliant, and one must say, chapeu.

you reckon Wiggins wont leak like a sieve against him. 2013 Ventoux? A rider using a motor. He better hope Wigans has no suspicion Froome used it in Wigans 2012 year.

Well yes, if Wiggins goes out Landis style - and starts speaking about epo etc - then the whole Sky well and truly falls in and we get another four asterixed TDF's.....with Nibali of **Astana** standing firm as the one clean win of the era - there would be a certain perverse beauty in that I suppose. Vino for clean cycling.

But I forsee a political impulse to save good old Wiggo - he is after all a sir, a national hero and super popular. But they need a famous head to cut off, and jettison away - the poisoned source, after which, the brand can re-emerge in a new form.

That head has to be Brailsford. Just like Hird at EFC. There needs to be a head on stake; and we will all feel sorry for him when he ends up where he ends up.

then someone will get Nibali for using a motor at the Giro last year. I dont think merely 800ml refill of packed cells in the rest day can describe his turnaround.***

***this is the reason the sport has lost legitimacy, he may not have used a motor, but the sport is so bereft in trust and truth, we immediately think #conspiracy as default.

So, can you really blame Greg and Andreu for believing a motor story spun to them? I don't think they are lying, I think they are dead wrong, but I don't think they are lying. They are just factually incorrect, I think they have a deepseated view that what they are saying is correct. It aint, but they are entitled to the opinion. I dont think it stands the test of scrutiny.

so what about my Nibali theory? Well, I already put the caveat out there, I am convinced in nothing. Nothing would surptise me. Well... if he did not have a rest day refill, now that WOULD indeed surprise me.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Well yes, if Wiggins goes out Landis style - and starts speaking about epo etc - then the whole Sky well and truly falls in and we get another four asterixed TDF's.....with Nibali of **Astana** standing firm as the one clean win of the era - there would be a certain perverse beauty in that I suppose. Vino for clean cycling.

But I forsee a political impulse to save good old Wiggo - he is after all a sir, a national hero and super popular. But they need a famous head to cut off, and jettison away - the poisoned source, after which, the brand can re-emerge in a new form.

That head has to be Brailsford. Just like Hird at EFC. There needs to be a head on stake; and we will all feel sorry for him when he ends up where he ends up.

ptII

maybe the journos and the cycling team are bit players, as I said, tiddleywinks.

Rupert and James Murdoch are operating on a much different scale. Who knows what they decide. But one thing will be certain, #TeamSKY and Sky Cycling, will not come between Newscorp/Foxentertainment/NewsInternational getting their hands on outright control of Sky Broadcasting the company. Only the regulators can prevent Rupert. Rupert deals with Merkel and May and EU regulators, this cycling thin is sandpit stuff. Murdoch can afford to pay off Wiggins, Froome, Brailsford, give them enough money for them to STFU, and Froome to move to the Emirati team.

We saw Team Coast die about this time in 2002ish, then re-form in the new iteration of Bianchi, without Tricki Beltran and a few others, think Steinhauser stayed on with Jan.

I would love to be a fly-on-the-wall and eavesdrop what is going on in the emails and phones between the big boys.

 

[Digger]

Re: Re:

Perhaps Sky can merge with Vaughters' team

This is a great Idea. Maybe Bobby J. and Lance A. can be the DS and Assistant DS.

On a more pointed part. Where is Greg, Betsy, and the rest of the gang stand on all this. USA cycling fans would like to know. So far all I hear are Parakeets.

Betsy and the Greg have been busy spreading lies about Lance using a motor. The real question is where is Race Radio and his imaginary tail winds? You know, the ones RR made up because admitting that Sky is doping would make Lance just one dot in a long and continuing line of drug users.

There were tailwinds, Leinders is not Ferrari, there's no hospital room, comparing frrome's time up Ventoux to Mayo's ITT and so on. It was Grade A trolling, made worse by lobbying mods endlessly to ban members whom disagreed with the magical mystery tail wind theorem. And who could forget lunch with Richie Porte looking him in the eyes and declaring he wasn't a doper.

Looking back, seeing the way Cookson and Sky have conducted themselves Lance is looking more and more civil.

Many won't remember this but in the 2015 tour, forget what stage, Thomas rode tempo all the last climb in the rain - Quintana was even struggling to hold his wheel. Rasmussen pointed out how nuts it was. initially so did RR - 20minutes later he went back on this...clearly he got a few responses from sky fans, made an excuse for Thomas being so strong and reneged. It was pitiful.
But look he's spoken to multiple riders about this - and met porte for lunch...the behaviour of some people who weren't willing to go after sky, because they didn't want to upset their followers, who were also riders, was so transparent.

 

[B_Ugli]

Re: Re:

Well yes, if Wiggins goes out Landis style - and starts speaking about epo etc - then the whole Sky well and truly falls in and we get another four asterixed TDF's.....with Nibali of **Astana** standing firm as the one clean win of the era - there would be a certain perverse beauty in that I suppose. Vino for clean cycling.

But I forsee a political impulse to save good old Wiggo - he is after all a sir, a national hero and super popular. But they need a famous head to cut off, and jettison away - the poisoned source, after which, the brand can re-emerge in a new form.

That head has to be Brailsford. Just like Hird at EFC. There needs to be a head on stake; and we will all feel sorry for him when he ends up where he ends up.

ptII

maybe the journos and the cycling team are bit players, as I said, tiddleywinks.

Rupert and James Murdoch are operating on a much different scale. Who knows what they decide. But one thing will be certain, #TeamSKY and Sky Cycling, will not come between Newscorp/Foxentertainment/NewsInternational getting their hands on outright control of Sky Broadcasting the company. Only the regulators can prevent Rupert. Rupert deals with Merkel and May and EU regulators, this cycling thin is sandpit stuff. Murdoch can afford to pay off Wiggins, Froome, Brailsford, give them enough money for them to STFU, and Froome to move to the Emirati team.

We saw Team Coast die about this time in 2002ish, then re-form in the new iteration of Bianchi, without Tricki Beltran and a few others, think Steinhauser stayed on with Jan.

I would love to be a fly-on-the-wall and eavesdrop what is going on in the emails and phones between the big boys.

And this is it none of us know what deals/phone calls are being made between the main protagonists in this. Let's not forget that all these guys were 'mates'.

A lot of this riders stuff yesterday I would say is manourvering - by the end of the week Freeman will have squeeled to a lesser or greater degree so they are all jockeying for position for the fallout.

Let's not forget that Brailsford was ready to drop Froome before the 2011 Vuelta and he had continuing broken promises from DB thereafter while he prioritised his darling Wiggins.

This issue of timeline in the ordering drugs seems to have been massively overlooked by all journos via a vis Froome

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

And this is it none of us know what deals/phone calls are being made between the main protagonists in this. Let's not forget that all these guys were 'mates'.

A lot of this riders stuff yesterday I would say is manourvering - by the end of the week Freeman will have squeeled to a lesser or greater degree so they are all jockeying for position for the fallout.

Let's not forget that Brailsford was ready to drop Froome before the 2011 Vuelta and he had continuing broken promises from DB thereafter while he prioritised his darling Wiggins.

This issue of timeline in the ordering drugs seems to have been massively overlooked by all journos via a vis Froome

and my caveat, let me be explicit, Murdoch may not have one finger in the pie. He may be completely irrelevant. There should be the chinese walls. He has zero to do with British Olympic sport, British Cycling, and Team Sky or Sky Cycling. On paper, it may look mutually exclusive, this involves him naught.

but this is not my intuition.

when the players start to turn on each other in prisoner's dilemma, the schadenfreude could not be more... more freudian. I think I am allowed to say that.

#sigmund
#schadenfreude
#Prisoner's_dilemma

Murdoch and Sino walls, is like, well, it is like Wendi ding ding ding Deng bingo! and Tony Blair. #Rupert

 

[mrhender]

Re:

I'm liking the Dawg now.

He's becoming a bit of a patron; and there's a touch of the Indurains about him. Keeps it polite, diplomatic....but that belies a ruthless edge. DB is in the way of a 4th Tour - he must be taken down early (now).

Initially I hated Sky because of Froome's rise - but now the play between them is intriguing; he seems more like the outsider who has played his hand to perfection.

In all of this, there's nothing on Froome! It's brilliant, and one must say, chapeu.

In my view the non-sopport is logical, I dont think Froome was privy to the same SKY marginal gains as say Wiggins.
He went and found a better deal in Monaco, good for him in retrospect.
Because now indeed he can put arms lenght to the mess, and get back at them double up for keeping him out of the marginal gains regime.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Froome (with Walsh) has been desperately trying to put distance between himself and Wiggins / Brailsford for some time. Looked impossible on the face of it since the MO is virtually identical but maybe it is working

 

[B_Ugli]

Re: Re:

I'm liking the Dawg now.

He's becoming a bit of a patron; and there's a touch of the Indurains about him. Keeps it polite, diplomatic....but that belies a ruthless edge. DB is in the way of a 4th Tour - he must be taken down early (now).

Initially I hated Sky because of Froome's rise - but now the play between them is intriguing; he seems more like the outsider who has played his hand to perfection.

In all of this, there's nothing on Froome! It's brilliant, and one must say, chapeu.

In my view the non-sopport is logical, I dont think Froome was privy to the same SKY marginal gains as say Wiggins.
He went and found a better deal in Monaco, good for him in retrospect.
Because now indeed he can put arms lenght to the mess, and get back at them double up for keeping him out of the marginal gains regime.

I still think that all this talk of the class of 2016 (including Froome) being home and dry is premature (and exactly the spin Alistair Campbell wants the public buying into).

Until the timeframe is established for Freemans ordering of triamcinolone no one is 'in the clear'. If he was ordering it in 2016 and large amounts between May and July in particular then Froome et all are still in for a penny in for a pound.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

I'm liking the Dawg now.

He's becoming a bit of a patron; and there's a touch of the Indurains about him. Keeps it polite, diplomatic....but that belies a ruthless edge. DB is in the way of a 4th Tour - he must be taken down early (now).

Initially I hated Sky because of Froome's rise - but now the play between them is intriguing; he seems more like the outsider who has played his hand to perfection.

In all of this, there's nothing on Froome! It's brilliant, and one must say, chapeu.

Its weird how easily people romanticize scumbags and idiots.

Same happened with lance. Plenty of people who knew he doped held him up as this intelligent machiavelian genius. He was none of the sort. Nor is Froome. Take a brief look through either of their stories they were just stupid bullies who got lucky.

The guy has never taken a long term perspective at anything.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I'm liking the Dawg now.

He's becoming a bit of a patron; and there's a touch of the Indurains about him. Keeps it polite, diplomatic....but that belies a ruthless edge. DB is in the way of a 4th Tour - he must be taken down early (now).

Initially I hated Sky because of Froome's rise - but now the play between them is intriguing; he seems more like the outsider who has played his hand to perfection.

In all of this, there's nothing on Froome! It's brilliant, and one must say, chapeu.

Its weird how easily people romanticize scumbags and idiots.

Same happened with lance. Plenty of people who knew he doped held him up as this intelligent machiavelian genius. He was none of the sort. Nor is Froome. Take a brief look through either of their stories they were just stupid bullies who got lucky.

The guy has never taken a long term perspective at anything.

Hitch, I never liked Lance. so I was never part of the apologia on his behaviour. But paradoxically, I have come around to him. I now have a kind of understanding...

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

I'm liking the Dawg now.

He's becoming a bit of a patron; and there's a touch of the Indurains about him. Keeps it polite, diplomatic....but that belies a ruthless edge. DB is in the way of a 4th Tour - he must be taken down early (now).

Initially I hated Sky because of Froome's rise - but now the play between them is intriguing; he seems more like the outsider who has played his hand to perfection.

In all of this, there's nothing on Froome! It's brilliant, and one must say, chapeu.

Back in the day, Bernard Hinault turned to the Renault bosses - the big bosses, the car-maker bosses - and gave them an ultimatum: Cyrille Guimard or him, one of them had to go. Renault, they made their choice and Hinault went.

Compare that to what Froome is doing: briefing hacks behind the scenes.

And why? Because he's a petulant little *** and still carries a grudge over 2012 and the promises made and broken. Chapeau? No.

 

[vedrafjord]

Re: Re:

Let's not forget that Brailsford was ready to drop Froome before the 2011 Vuelta and he had continuing broken promises from DB thereafter while he prioritised his darling Wiggins.

This issue of timeline in the ordering drugs seems to have been massively overlooked by all journos via a vis Froome

Froome (with Walsh) has been desperately trying to put distance between himself and Wiggins / Brailsford for some time. Looked impossible on the face of it since the MO is virtually identical but maybe it is working

I've been wondering about that - what was Sky's 'high octane' programme and who was on it and when? Corticos, testosterone patches, yes, but what about transfusions and if so, who did them? Legal or illegal metabolism modulators? US Postal only ever had Lance plus 2 or 3 super doms on the full high octane GT programme. It's unlikely that Froome's initial transformation was approved by Brailsford - it could have been through that Monaco doctor, or through South African contacts, or both. If Froome has continued to manage his doping himself, Brailsford may not have much leverage on him.

Also when they had, say Mick Rogers on the team, an old school doper if ever there was one, did he look after his own doping or was he on some kind of standard team super-dom programme? Boassen-Hagen? He was good in 2011 and then fell away. Did the non-Anglos not have access to the good stuff? And remember this hillarious quote from Brailsford after the 2015 Tour, during which Roche cracked on the final climb during the TTT: "Instead of Nicholas Roche coming in just as a climber, which he can do, we asked him specifically not to lose too much weight, to keep his power" - a tone-deaf comment bearing in mind the huge weight loss without loss of power that Wiggins and Froome managed. To me it was basically an admission that Roche wasn't in the inner circle.

Right now we're only scratching the surface.

 

[B_Ugli]

Re: Sky

Interesting comments from Dr Michael Ashenden back in 2012

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/oct/20/doping-team-sky-cyclin

Very surprised no one has contacted him for a comment on all this.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...

I've been wondering about that - what was Sky's 'high octane' programme and who was on it and when? Corticos, testosterone patches, yes, but what about transfusions and if so, who did them?

You can't be seriously questioning the use of blood transfusions by Team Sky riders?
I think every single one of them.
Motors and AICAR is a different story.

Legal or illegal metabolism modulators?

why make this an 'either or'?

US Postal only ever had Lance plus 2 or 3 super doms on the full high octane GT programme.

Where do you have that from?
And what do you mean by "full high octane"? Is that a step further than simple "high octane"?
Because there's no doubt in my mind that the majority of USPS and SKY riders have been using, or are using, high octane dope.
For Froome specifically I've heard two rumors about what may have facilitated his transformation: 1. AICAR.
2. Motors. Meanwhile I don't think anybody would suggest Froome wasn't already on a 'regular' high octane program pre-2011-Vuelta.

It's unlikely that Froome's initial transformation was approved by Brailsford - it could have been through that Monaco doctor, or through South African contacts, or both.

I think we don't really know.
I think TheHog pointed out that Froome had been training specifically with Brailsford in the lead up to the Tour de Pologne and/or Vuelta 2011, which could point towards Brailsford being in the know about, or maybe even coordinating, Froome's transformation.

If Froome has continued to manage his doping himself, Brailsford may not have much leverage on him.

Also when they had, say Mick Rogers on the team, an old school doper if ever there was one, did he look after his own doping or was he on some kind of standard team super-dom programme? Boassen-Hagen? He was good in 2011 and then fell away. Did the non-Anglos not have access to the good stuff? And remember this hillarious quote from Brailsford after the 2015 Tour, during which Roche cracked on the final climb during the TTT: "Instead of Nicholas Roche coming in just as a climber, which he can do, we asked him specifically not to lose too much weight, to keep his power" - a tone-deaf comment bearing in mind the huge weight loss without loss of power that Wiggins and Froome managed. To me it was basically an admission that Roche wasn't in the inner circle.

interesting point re Roche.

Right now we're only scratching the surface

That's for sure.
And I think for USPS we've also just scratched the surface, except for Landis and Hamilton maybe.

 

[Wiggo's Package]

Re: Sky

Interesting comments from Dr Michael Ashenden back in 2012

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/oct/20/doping-team-sky-cyclin

Very surprised no one has contacted him for a comment on all this.

Even more pertinent from Ashenden, from his 2012 "Omerta 101" CN article:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/opinion-michael-ashenden-on-omerta-101/

"Despite the self-serving data bending and associated propaganda to the contrary, I am led to believe that there are pockets of organised, highly sophisticated dopers even within ‘new age’ cycling teams. Personally, I don’t accept that the ‘dark era’ has ended, it has just morphed into a new guise."