Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Benotti69]

He's pointing the finger at everyone there isn't he?

Yep, 'even new age teams'.

 

[maxmartin]

Is something wrong with MR? He is also out of WC, seems lots of SKY TOF guys have fatigue problem right now. Interesting timing

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...-in-Australian-squad-for-Elite-road-race.aspx

 

[thehog]

Is something wrong with MR? He is also out of WC, seems lots of SKY TOF guys have fatigue problem right now. Interesting timing

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...-in-Australian-squad-for-Elite-road-race.aspx

Yes the Sky guys are like women in a covent when their menstrual cycles align.

The Sky guys spend so much time together their form coincides. When they're hot, they're all hot. When they're fatigued, they're all fatigued.

Is little Richie Porte fatigued as well?

 

[Cycle Chic]

Yes the Sky guys are like women in a covent when their menstrual cycles align.

The Sky guys spend so much time together their form coincides. When they're hot, they're all hot. When they're fatigued, they're all fatigued.

Is little Richie Porte fatigued as well?

thats funny...and little Richie Porte is a bute !

 

[the big ring]

Is something wrong with MR? He is also out of WC, seems lots of SKY TOF guys have fatigue problem right now. Interesting timing

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...-in-Australian-squad-for-Elite-road-race.aspx

Tonsilitis.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Admittedly this graphic is from the 2011 and not 2012. And it has been posted several times but apparently overlooked by certain new posters who cannot be bothered reading threads before leaping in boots and all.

http://inrng.com/2012/08/team-sky-budget-accounts/

So the declared 2011 budget is £16 680 000, or approx €20 800 000. Which is of course, far more than appears there.

Furthermore, this notes that the 'average number of employees' is 3, as most people are employed as self-employed contractors, a bit like a taxi firm, enabling them to save on tax.

They note that Sky isn't the biggest budget team (BMC supposedly is), but also that their wageroll alone is larger than some teams' entire operational budget. Also, what of the many millions of grants British Cycling gets? After all, there is a pretty obvious overlap between Team Sky and British Cycling; research and work put in in the name of British Cycling can easily be put to use in the name of Team Sky (eg money for development used towards BC guys riding for Team Sky, eg Swift, Thomas or Kennaugh).

Sky is, in truth, most definitely a big budget team and always has been, and don't let the slightly misleading publicised figures tell you otherwise.

 

[BroDeal]

Is something wrong with MR? He is also out of WC, seems lots of SKY TOF guys have fatigue problem right now. Interesting timing

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...-in-Australian-squad-for-Elite-road-race.aspx

I think it is funny that Rogers, former multi ITT world champion , says he is producing 7% more power than ever before yet he is not good enough to be selected to represent his own country at the world's individual time trial.

Whatever happened to that world beating time trialist?

 

[the big ring]

I think it is funny that Rogers, former multi ITT world champion , says he is producing 7% more power than ever before yet he is not good enough to be selected to represent his own country at the world's individual time trial.

Whatever happened to that world beating time trialist?

Man spin overdrive much?

He has tonsilitis and pulled out.

 

[ToreBear]

Saw the talk a few pages back. I just wanted to point out that the "glow time" for cannabis is very long. It could be as much as a month. I think the rule of thumb is 3 weeks IIRC. I haven't concerned my self with that for a decade.

Of course Wiggins could get Leinders to test him, and then only compete when the test finally shows negative. But Wiggins being a pothead is something I feel should be irrelevant in a doping context.

As for it's use as a ped, I think anyone in any sport would reap great benefits if their competitors used cannabis.

There is absolutely no percievable benefit to any sport I can imagine from cannabis, rather the opposite.

I think there is talk of removing it from the WADA list in the next revision. Using resources on athletes dumb enough to use it which could be used better on catching PED users does not make any sence.

As for it's use for medical purposes, that is highly questionable. For pain I would personally prefer an asprin or something.

 

[BroDeal]

Man spin overdrive much?

He has tonsilitis and pulled out.

Rogers was not selected for the ITT before he punked out.

He should be at the height of his time trialing ability. But, nope, not even good enough to make the team. Durbridge and Meyer are sent instead.

Where are all those marginal gains? Wiggins can suddenly win long time trials, something he has never been able to do in the past. Rogers has gone backwards.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Saw the talk a few pages back. I just wanted to point out that the "glow time" for cannabis is very long. It could be as much as a month. I think the rule of thumb is 3 weeks IIRC. I haven't concerned my self with that for a decade.

Of course Wiggins could get Leinders to test him, and then only compete when the test finally shows negative. But Wiggins being a pothead is something I feel should be irrelevant in a doping context.

As for it's use as a ped, I think anyone in any sport would reap great benefits if their competitors used cannabis.

There is absolutely no percievable benefit to any sport I can imagine from cannabis, rather the opposite.

I think there is talk of removing it from the WADA list in the next revision. Using resources on athletes dumb enough to use it which could be used better on catching PED users does not make any sence.

As for it's use for medical purposes, that is highly questionable. For pain I would personally prefer an asprin or something.

How Long Can Marijuana Be Detected?

Some THC metabolites have an elimination half-life of 20 hours. However, some are stored in body fat and have a elimination half-life of 10 to 13 days. Most researchers agree that urine tests for marijuana can detect the presence of the drug in the body for up to 13 days.
However, there is anecdotal evidence that the length of time that marijuana remains in the body is affected by how often the person smokes, how much he smokes and how long he has been smoking. Regular smokers have reported positive drug test results after 45 days since last use and heavy smokers have reported positive tests 90 days after quitting.
http://alcoholism.about.com/od/pot/a/marijuana_test.htm

There is plenty of evidence for medical use and a zillion other positive uses :http://www.electricemperor.com/enter/index.html
There is simply no logic to it being on any PED list or even being illegal.

 

[Telmisartan new]

How Long Can Marijuana Be Detected?

Some THC metabolites have an elimination half-life of 20 hours. However, some are stored in body fat and have a elimination half-life of 10 to 13 days. Most researchers agree that urine tests for marijuana can detect the presence of the drug in the body for up to 13 days.
However, there is anecdotal evidence that the length of time that marijuana remains in the body is affected by how often the person smokes, how much he smokes and how long he has been smoking. Regular smokers have reported positive drug test results after 45 days since last use and heavy smokers have reported positive tests 90 days after quitting.
http://alcoholism.about.com/od/pot/a/marijuana_test.htm

Interesting post.I had a friend who regularly smoked and worked for a leading British employer about 20 years ago when they brought in compulsory drug testing from the U.S.He had been tipped off it was coming in and stayed off the smoke for six weeks.He was the first person in the entire country sacked for a positive.He couldn't believe it,still can't although he got a better job shortly after that.

Its feasible Wiggins avoided too much racing after having a smoke or maybe his interviews since the gold medal point to something as well, comments like "dont know how i can top the last few weeks" or "didnt enjoy the tour" suggest he's mentally burned out also.Still,plenty of time to "re-fuel" for another GT challenge next year if the desire is still there.Gather the boys together and off to the Canaries we go!

 

[ToreBear]

How Long Can Marijuana Be Detected?

Some THC metabolites have an elimination half-life of 20 hours. However, some are stored in body fat and have a elimination half-life of 10 to 13 days. Most researchers agree that urine tests for marijuana can detect the presence of the drug in the body for up to 13 days.
However, there is anecdotal evidence that the length of time that marijuana remains in the body is affected by how often the person smokes, how much he smokes and how long he has been smoking. Regular smokers have reported positive drug test results after 45 days since last use and heavy smokers have reported positive tests 90 days after quitting.
http://alcoholism.about.com/od/pot/a/marijuana_test.htm

There is plenty of evidence for medical use and a zillion other positive uses :http://www.electricemperor.com/enter/index.html
There is simply no logic to it being on any PED list or even being illegal.

Yep, it's as I thought.

On the medical use, the evidence for cannabis is very "popular" but the studies are low standard or inconclusive from what I have seen.

It should definetly not be on a PED list.
Weather it should be legal or not is another discussion. My take is that it's healthier to be a cannabis addict than an alchoholic, and alchohol is legal in most countries.

 

[sittingbison]

...They note that Sky isn't the biggest budget team (BMC supposedly is), but also that their wageroll alone is larger than some teams' entire operational budget...Sky is, in truth, most definitely a big budget team and always has been, and don't let the slightly misleading publicised figures tell you otherwise.

I agree, the point of the graphic is to show those posters claiming ad hoc Sky is the biggest, bestest, most well funded team, who are the only ones doing research etc bla bla are not giving other teams enough credit. This has been discussed at length about 3000 posts ago.

Its the same old argument - we train harder, we eat better blah blah blah disregarding that ALL teams are trying to train harder and eat better, or even worse making insinuations that they actually DON'T do these things.

Sure TeamSKY have one of the biggest if not biggest budgets, but Astana, BMC, Katusha etc are in the same ball park, and they are also all trying to win. Do you think for one second say Evans is not doing everything possible, and the team not supplying, to maximise his performance? Of course not.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Do you think for one second say Evans is not doing everything possible, and the team not supplying, to maximise his performance? Of course not.

Interesting you say that given some of the comment on this thread. Having the money is of course one thing. What you do with that money is something else. Rabobank seem pretty well funded but always flatter to deceive. Is it just their riders or is it to do with their setup as well. Probably somewhere in-between.

 

[sittingbison]

Interesting you say that given some of the comment on this thread....

not interesting at all, because that thread pretty much sums it up. As one reasoned voice said, some riders like to be mollycoddled, some don't. I said Evans (for example) would be doing everything possible to maximise his performance and his team would be supplying that.

The real issue still remains it is disingenuous to claim one rider (eg Lance) or one team (eg USPS or Sky) are dominant because of *INSERT FALLACY*, when of course every other rider and team is also looking for that edge. TRAIN HARDER, EAT BETTER, FLUFFY PILLOWS, WARM CLOTHES. Give me a break.

However, I also said elsewhere that the 1%ers as they are known in Aussie Rules footy have been around for decades. But guess what. EVERY TEAM DOES THEM.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

not interesting at all, because that thread pretty much sums it up. As one reasoned voice said, some riders like to be mollycoddled, some don't. I said Evans (for example) would be doing everything possible to maximise his performance and his team would be supplying that.

The real issue still remains it is disingenuous to claim one rider (eg Lance) or one team (eg USPS or Sky) are dominant because of *INSERT FALLACY*, when of course every other rider and team is also looking for that edge. TRAIN HARDER, EAT BETTER, FLUFFY PILLOWS, WARM CLOTHES. Give me a break.

However, I also said elsewhere that the 1%ers as they are known in Aussie Rules footy have been around for decades. But guess what. EVERY TEAM DOES THEM.

So someone like Andy Schleck may decide that he wants to train at his own pace. You don't think that he might perhaps benefit from being told what to do?

BMC have a good budget but their results have been mediocre at best. They spent huge sums on riders and for what. Thor has been ill, Gilbert under performed, Cadel has been ill. If that was Sky people would be going on about doping fatigue or bad blood bags. Perhaps there is something wrong at BMC that is causing this.

Just because riders don't want to be told what to do does not mean they will not benefit from it. You mention AFL. Are you telling me that there has not been improvements in performance since the 70s in players?

 

[Galic Ho]

LOL: All that schoolboy rant over the simple pointing out that there is a significant difference between race speeds and TTT speeds.?

So now the fact that folks follow pro racing, rather than the Clinic sages is seen as a stigma?
Whatever, Hopeless.

No. Just you. Hopeless? What, not Galic Hopeless like last time?

So how does it taste? Does Sky pay you in green or white stuff? Just wondering. hope your getting paid in cash dude. You really do deserve a paycheck. You really don't like getting called out for running off on some warped tangent with race logic.

Use your brain. All the hardcore fanboys post predominantly post in the Pro threads and when anything that upsets their rosy ideals gets mentioned in the Clinic they get all upset and have a cry. You should know, you do this a lot. I could name names, but it's obvious. The guys who have avatar pics of Vino are the best for a laugh. They'd kiss his back side if given the chance.

The real joke is those who think Armstrong is dirty, but cannot extend their logic to include Sky. I'll say this much. Sky ever need groupies to relieve themselves...these people should give them a call. They'd be more than willing.

Want to post idiotic garbage about team Sky not being able to win a TTT if they chose to, you'll be corrected. Want to post nonsense about FOUR men, yes just FOUR men, thinking they could pull an entire peloton in a GOLD MEDAL OLYMPIC RACE for 200km and never ask for help...yeah deny the psychology and evidence all you want, they almost pulled it off. Cut the distance as I said, to 20% the speed goes up (that's a given and you are *** if you cannot make the distinction), add in another two world class riders and exchange the two weaker members for Porte and Rogers and they'd do it quite comfortably. Everyone knows this. Quit playing the idiot card and acting like an uptight pommie fanboy. You guys give Polish a run for his money. At least he was occasionally funny.

Oh and the comeuppance...it's on the way. Sky are going to have their own Postal moment. I just wonder who will be the one with the shotgun.

Gary Ablett snr + cocaine + young girl dead in a hotel.

True. But he was no longer playing at that time. The drama off the field in Aussie footie codes makes for better entertainment than the games themselves. Some classic stuff involved. Most of it nasty.

 

[Galic Ho]

I was trying to make sense of all your posts and I think this answers it.

You're right - I avoided "the public's" part in anti-doping, because its irrelevant. This is not a democracy, there is no shared view (as this forum shows).
That the masses confuse recreational drugs and PEDs is PR, not anti-doping.

You actually proved the point about Australians being outraged or whatever about a guy with a drug problem while completely missing the PED abuse in sport.

That was my intention.

The public's role in anti-doping isn't to administer it. It is to make the sport money. What society or the fans of a particular sport find acceptable in the realm of drugs differ. And yes, the sport is dependent on the fans. Hence why the AFL acts the way it does. They run a massive boys club with social drug issues and lots of unsavoury attitudes as well. Control the flow of information and you alter the public perception of the sport and ensure more $$$ flow. Don't and you get negative press in the media, even from favourable journalists and potentially see a cash flow decrease. The AFL run their business well. I don't like it, or why they do it, but they do make a lot of money. Sadly this makes the UCI look good.

The PED abuse. Most won't see it. They can't see it. The anti-doping policy of all the football codes in lax. The teams do the testing, rarely test and the type of testing is aimed at recreational drugs. EPO test? Testosterone test? Clenbuterol and other masking agents/weight loss drugs? I doubt they even test for them. My bet would be your basic steroid test is as far as they go.

Hence why I said, the dual approach of WADA on both PEDs and recreational drugs is needed and why management in the UCI isn't up to scratch with other sports. But this is old news. If most sports tested it's stars like cycling is, well cycling would look a hell of a lot better.

 

[Galic Ho]

Yes the Sky guys are like women in a covent when their menstrual cycles align.

The Sky guys spend so much time together their form coincides. When they're hot, they're all hot. When they're fatigued, they're all fatigued.

Is little Richie Porte fatigued as well?

Richie is actually the most talented naturally. No surprise from me he's still going. Bjarne taught him well. Watching Contador was good for him no?

Rogers has forever played the "I am sick" card. It's getting old. Same garbage with Froome and his blood illness. Who buys this crap? If you're that sick, your fitness drops and it takes a very long time to regain. Rogers could play that card at HTC, because he was in and out of form...maybe he was just normal when he was crap? Now?

No now, you align everything? Sleeping times, menstrual cycles (blood doping people) bowel movements and when and what you eat. The whole marginal gains thing. Adds a psychological bonding than enables all recipients to push those 420W+ outputs over multiple cols and mountains for 60 minutes unaided and alone and then to drop off and come back past other GC riders as a domestique.

Seriously, if Sky are clean, they should be bottling this stuff up and selling it to the public. Plenty of people on this forum would part with their hard earned cash to get even a % better on this marginal gains stuff. Heck, most fitness nuts in the global community would lap it up. So when is the book coming out with a fitness program?

 

[Galic Ho]

How Long Can Marijuana Be Detected?

Some THC metabolites have an elimination half-life of 20 hours. However, some are stored in body fat and have a elimination half-life of 10 to 13 days. Most researchers agree that urine tests for marijuana can detect the presence of the drug in the body for up to 13 days.
However, there is anecdotal evidence that the length of time that marijuana remains in the body is affected by how often the person smokes, how much he smokes and how long he has been smoking. Regular smokers have reported positive drug test results after 45 days since last use and heavy smokers have reported positive tests 90 days after quitting.
http://alcoholism.about.com/od/pot/a/marijuana_test.htm

There is plenty of evidence for medical use and a zillion other positive uses :http://www.electricemperor.com/enter/index.html
There is simply no logic to it being on any PED list or even being illegal.

Depends on what you test. And for various reasons as was stated after your post. Trace elements remain in hair follicles. So if your hair is grown longer rather than shorter, and you were smoking months back, they can feasibly catch you for pot.

Last time I heard about any cyclists getting hair taken was LA on his comeback around the time he was dodging USADA in the shower with Bruyneel. Some time around early 2009. Only time I've heard of hair being taken in cycling. Mostly urine, sometimes blood. FWIW, I don't care if any of them are smoking pot. A lot worse things are going on drug wise in cycling.

 

[sittingbison]

So someone like Andy Schleck may decide that he wants to train at his own pace. You don't think that he might perhaps benefit from being told what to do?...Just because riders don't want to be told what to do does not mean they will not benefit from it. You mention AFL. Are you telling me that there has not been improvements in performance since the 70s in players?

The presumption being that Sky ARE telling all their riders what to do, etc. and are doing things different to all other teams bla bla bla. Sorry, doesn't compute. Conveniently forgotten is the fact that there has been a cabal of dramatically improved performers, the rest are exactly the same as they have always been, and no better than the rest of the field. Wiggo, Froome, Rogers and Porte.

As to BMC, Thor has been out all year, Evans struggled with health all year. Gilbert struggled with form all year. That dos not agree with a bad blood bag (or heaven forbid a team wide lurgy like Sky endured before hiring Leinders). What would be suspicious is over performing, then blowing up dramatically after the dodgy blood bag. Then maybe over performing again.

As to AFL, the game has dramatically changed since the 70s, hell it has dramatically changed since 2010. The body shape of the players has very quickly evolved since the 70s from heavy thighed mud sloggers to super strong upper bodies in the 90s to lean and lithe speedsters now. The game is terrifically fast and fluent now. The skills are incredible. However, the 1%ers still apply, the small things that can make a difference. And yes, everyone does them. There are a horde of back room boffins counting every possible stat, and if a player slackens intensity they are out.

 

[sittingbison]

...Seriously, if Sky are clean, they should be bottling this stuff up and selling it to the public. Plenty of people on this forum would part with their hard earned cash to get even a % better on this marginal gains stuff. Heck, most fitness nuts in the global community would lap it up...

Voila!:

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

The presumption being that Sky ARE telling all their riders what to do, etc. and are doing things different to all other teams bla bla bla. Sorry, doesn't compute. Conveniently forgotten is the fact that there has been a cabal of dramatically improved performers, the rest are exactly the same as they have always been, and no better than the rest of the field. Wiggo, Froome, Rogers and Porte.

So explain how riders on BMC who were performing near miracles are suddenly completely of the radar. You claim jumps in performance are suspicious then surely such drops in performance raise eyebrows.

As to BMC, Thor has been out all year, Evans struggled with health all year. Gilbert struggled with form all year. That dos not agree with a bad blood bag (or heaven forbid a team wide lurgy like Sky endured before hiring Leinders). What would be suspicious is over performing, then blowing up dramatically after the dodgy blood bag. Then maybe over performing again.

So Cadel dragging the peloton around the Galibier in one Tour and then being dropped by is own domestique the next is not curious? Why the drop in form of all these guys? Why are they ill? After all they have the best training that money can buy according to you.

As to AFL, the game has dramatically changed since the 70s, hell it has dramatically changed since 2010. The body shape of the players has very quickly evolved since the 70s from heavy thighed mud sloggers to super strong upper bodies in the 90s to lean and lithe speedsters now. The game is terrifically fast and fluent now. The skills are incredible. However, the 1%ers still apply, the small things that can make a difference. And yes, everyone does them. There are a horde of back room boffins counting every possible stat, and if a player slackens intensity they are out.

So you yourself acknowledge that even from 2010 that there has been a huge change in performance. So I have no idea what you are arguing about? I bet partially the improvement has come from more money into the sport. And I bet there are some teams in the AFL that have huge funding but are still not performing to expected levels, right?

 

[sittingbison]

So explain how riders on BMC who were performing near miracles are suddenly completely of the radar. You claim jumps in performance are suspicious then surely such drops in performance raise eyebrows.


So Cadel dragging the peloton around the Galibier in one Tour and then being dropped by is own domestique the next is not curious? Why the drop in form of all these guys? Why are they ill? After all they have the best training that money can buy according to you.


So you yourself acknowledge that even from 2010 that there has been a huge change in performance. So I have no idea what you are arguing about? I bet partially the improvement has come from more money into the sport. And I bet there are some teams in the AFL that have huge funding but are still not performing to expected levels, right?

You still don't get it. BMCs top guns Thor and Evans have been ill pretty much the whole season. Evans struggled to even make the Tour, and basically bombed out half way. He is still out. Thor has missed the season. As to why they are ill long term? Who knows, but this is not commensurate with being at top of game then transfusing a bad blood bag. Perhaps it is a sign they are both suffering from advanced decrepitude? Could be anything, being ill in itself is not suspicious.

As to Evans being dropped by his own domestique - apart from not being physically at the top of his game, there is also the problem of him having to escape from the yellow jersey group being driven by Rogers and Porte. You know, the one Basso said was impossible to escape from when he was sitting on the back at 420W. The one Wiggo said was impossible to escape from because Rogers was doing 450W, and it would need an impossible 500W. The one Rogers was quite happy to be putting out 480W, 7% better than he had ever done.

And no, the AFL has changed, but it is due to changes of tactics. The style has changed, and the build has changed to match the style. And funding is essentially not in the equation. Its not like soccer.