Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[the sceptic]

Wiggins gained like 2 minutes on Tony Martin from Copenhagen to London. But i assume that just means that Martin is lazy and couldnt be bothered to try and win the olympics.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Or injured...

 

[cineteq]

Michael Barry:
"The evolution must persist. The sport cannot continue to risk crushing our children’s dreams and damaging lives."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/16/s...-sport-must-continue.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

Barry should call out his former team if he want to walk the talk.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

he's a better itt rider obviously and always has been

so wrong. so very, very, very wrong. as posted within these very forums. LA vs Big Mig level of wrong.

 

[thehog]

Michael Barry:
"The evolution must persist. The sport cannot continue to risk crushing our children’s dreams and damaging lives."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/16/s...-sport-must-continue.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

Barry should call out his former team if he want to walk the talk.

Isn’t this wonderful?

All these guys writing for the NY-Times on the evils of drugs. Anti-doping truly is back in fashion. I look forward to all of them setting up the “Coalition of the willing” – “The union of former teammates of Lance Armstrong who also doped but denied it and even called other teammates who doped liars when they confessed to later confess themselves when it was safe to do so”.

Cyclical yes. But looks like these guys are making a living out of it on the back of others. They don’t really deserve that.

 

[Benotti69]

Isn’t this wonderful?

All these guys writing for the NY-Times on the evils of drugs. Anti-doping truly is back in fashion. I look forward to all of them setting up the “Coalition of the willing” – “The union of former teammates of Lance Armstrong who also doped but denied it and even called other teammates who doped liars when they confessed to later confess themselves when it was safe to do so”.

Cyclical yes. But looks like these guys are making a living out of it on the back of others. They don’t really deserve that.

I am not surprised. Why would a rider like Barry say different when his lat DS is pretending he never knew anything and it was a shock and surprise to him?

Hang the Donkey Masters like Brailsford/Bruyneel/Riis before we hang the donkeys.

When the head honchos are feigning surprise about something that was common knowledge we cannot expect cycling to be clean or clean up in the future!

Hey Sky fans, if the doping was oh so long ago and Brailsford didn't really know anything about it why the need to set up a team that was going to be transparent and clean if the sport was cleaned up in 2006?

 

[Darryl Webster]

Hey Sky fans, if the doping was oh so long ago and Brailsford didn't really know anything about it why the need to set up a team that was going to be transparent and clean if the sport was cleaned up in 2006?

Exactly!!. Brailford,s a devious ******* and its becoming increasingly obvious.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Wiggins gained like 2 minutes on Tony Martin from Copenhagen to London. But i assume that just means that Martin is lazy and couldnt be bothered to try and win the olympics.

Maybe Martin quit the bags...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Maybe Martin quit the bags...

Nope .

 

[The Hitch]

Maybe Martin quit the bags...

Martin was injured as I recall and Cancellara was recovering from one and preparing for olympics. Ill give Wiggins that much though one would probably still expect a 90% Cancellara not to lose 50 seconds or whatever it was to Wiggins (after all Cancellara was on similar form in 09 Annency and he beat Wiggins for 40, despite the fact that wiggins claims he is no longer a tt specialist).

These rider versus rider comparisons if there are injuries involved can be pretty complicated though. The point about Wiggins tts that should be remembered is that he went as fast as Armstrong in his prime.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

so wrong. so very, very, very wrong. as posted within these very forums. LA vs Big Mig level of wrong.

I see you are good at using arguments

 

[JimmyFingers]

Martin was injured as I recall and Cancellara was recovering from one and preparing for olympics. Ill give Wiggins that much though one would probably still expect a 90% Cancellara not to lose 50 seconds or whatever it was to Wiggins (after all Cancellara was on similar form in 09 Annency and he beat Wiggins for 40, despite the fact that wiggins claims he is no longer a tt specialist).

These rider versus rider comparisons if there are injuries involved can be pretty complicated though. The point about Wiggins tts that should be remembered is that he went as fast as Armstrong in his prime.

Are we talking about the London TT or the TdF? The London one Cancellara went down hard in the road race and ******ed his shoulder. After it he collapsed in agony. Martin fractured his wrist on the Tour didn't he? wasn't on best form but then he hadn't been all season.

Martin was carrying that injury in the TdF and the longer TTs came later in the Tour, after Cancellara had been leading for a long time, so potentially tired and not at his peak. He retired shortly afterwards, although that was to be with his newborn opf course.

What I'm driving at, using the clinic's own logic, is that it's dangerous, or even impossible, to compare performances of individual riders to demonstrate improvement. You can say Wiggins gained 2 minutes on Martin between the worlds and the games, but you can also say Martin lost two. If we take the extreme line and say all three are doping, and have been for several years, then we know that the levels of doping may fluctuate throughout the season, and from season to season. If that is your premise then no comparisons are accurate without knowing precisely knowing the programs each rider was on.

That's is probably the most straight forward scenario. Others include one clean, two juiced, one juiced, 2 clean. Then consider they have riddewn some seasons clean, and some seasons juiced. The variables are endless: everything I have read here says that doping regimes aren't unform from rider to rider and from doctor to doctor, from timing, to peaking, and to the PEDs involved. This is a castle built on sand, using this evidence as indicative of doping.

Martin is a monster, a ITT machine but I've also seen him climb like a mountain goat (although not be able to sprint at the end), and he can lead out. Cancellara is one of the best time trialests, but he's also a bit of a puncheur and can get into breaks. Wiggins was an indifferent road rider despite being a brilliant pursuiter until 2009, then showed he could climb and TT too, and with massive support from his team (and I mean massive) he won the TdF.

Questions marks over all, and more so, when they started, when they were looking to peak in the season, whether they took breaks etc. To compare them and look for answers is speculation. To compare results from season to season is the same, because you have no idea what thew other riders were doing that were racing them. Beyond being clean or doped there are other factors: training, injury/health, climate, the parcours, mental state, management. It creates huge variables that are impossible to collate and compare accurately given the sparcity of facts we have. I enjoy debate when it is acknowledged as debate but too often in here speculation is presented as facts. That is so dangerous in my opinion

 

[Dalakhani]

I started the first Wiggins doping thread in the Clinic. I do not need convincing. But thanks anyway. I was poking fun at the logic used by the guy defending Wiggins.

And so was I.

 

[The Hitch]

Are we talking about the London TT or the TdF? The London one Cancellara went down hard in the road race and ******ed his shoulder. After it he collapsed in agony. Martin fractured his wrist on the Tour didn't he? wasn't on best form but then he hadn't been all season.

Im clearly talking about the Tour de France tt. The olympics one Cancellara was obviously totally ****ed for and i think would have won comfortably (and yes i do think cancellara takes drugs).

What I'm driving at, using the clinic's own logic, is that it's dangerous, or even impossible, to compare performances of individual riders to demonstrate improvement.

If that is your premise then no comparisons are accurate without knowing precisely knowing the programs each rider was on.

I aknowledged in my own post, the one you are quoting, that i wont put too much stock in comparisons, so i dont quite get why you are throwing it back at me as if it is some rebuttal.

This is a castle built on sand, using this evidence as indicative of doping.

too often in here speculation is presented as fact

As above, not only did i not claim wiggins beating an injured Cancellara was evidence, I actually claimed the exact oposite.

 

[the sceptic]

Tony MArtin should just lose 20 kg so he can win the tour next year

 

[The Hitch]

so wrong. so very, very, very wrong. as posted within these very forums.

I think you misunderstood Ryo. He was saying that Wiggins was always a better tter than JVDB and Nibali.

And while Wiggins was not the world beater back then that he is now, he was still a darn good tter and neither Nibali nor JVDB can claim that.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I think you misunderstood Ryo. He was saying that Wiggins was always a better tter than JVDB and Nibali.

And while Wiggins was not the world beater back then that he is now, he was still a darn good tter and neither Nibali nor JVDB can claim that.

I think you missed a post I made in another thread. Lemme go find it...

Don´t get it "Simeoni" as turning point.

I mean did you all just start following cycling in 1999? At least 2000 everybody should have known Armstrong isn´t just a doper, but a heavy junkie. He beat all guys from the Festina year and the "Epo-Era" by at least 6 minutes. A guy who finished with the groupetto pre 1999, he was overtaken in ITT´s. He lost 6 mins in a single ITT. It was too obvious from the start of his winning streak at the TdF...

Now, with hindsight, this seems obvious, right? Noone says, "tactics", focusing on the WCs, or any other excuse. Just: he was autobus, then he was winning.

I know I sound like a broken record, but how in the hell is that any different to Wiggins 2012 and Wiggins clean (pre 2009)?

2012: Final GC:

1 Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Sky Procycling 87:34:47
2 Christopher Froome (GBr) Sky Procycling 0:03:21
3 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas-Cannondale 0:06:19

2008 Giro 39.4km TT:

7. [ITA] NIBALI Vincenzo LIQ 54"
157. [GBR] WIGGINS Bradley THR 08'24"

Nibali is 8' down, Wiggins is down 1:16. It is a TT the day after a rest day.

How? He was WC and Olympic gold medallist at IP that year. So he is in peak condition.

 

[ferryman]

I think you missed a post I made in another thread. Lemme go find it...



Now, with hindsight, this seems obvious, right? Noone says, "tactics", focusing on the WCs, or any other excuse. Just: he was autobus, then he was winning.

I know I sound like a broken record, but how in the hell is that any different to Wiggins 2012 and Wiggins clean (pre 2009)?

2012: Final GC:


2008 Giro 39.4km TT:


Nibali is 8' down, Wiggins is down 1:16. It is a TT the day after a rest day.

How? He was WC and Olympic gold medallist at IP that year. So he is in peak condition.

Broken record or not I am hearing you. And with you. 2008 was Wiggins's 1000 day moment. He turned.

 

[The Hitch]

I think you missed a post I made in another thread. Lemme go find it...



Now, with hindsight, this seems obvious, right? Noone says, "tactics", focusing on the WCs, or any other excuse. Just: he was autobus, then he was winning.

I know I sound like a broken record, but how in the hell is that any different to Wiggins 2012 and Wiggins clean (pre 2009)?

2012: Final GC:


2008 Giro 39.4km TT:


Nibali is 8' down, Wiggins is down 1:16. It is a TT the day after a rest day.

How? He was WC and Olympic gold medallist at IP that year. So he is in peak condition.

Didnt wiggins come 5th in the first 07 long Tour tt though? And as i recall that was pretty hilly.

That shows that wiggins when he was clean and put his head to it, was able to put in a respectfull showing in the tts if he put his head to it (and that tt + the prologue where he came 4th were the aims for the season).

Of course to go from 5th to then smash everyone for 2 minutes is still an extremely suspicious improvement, but i dont think Wiggins was quite on it when he lost 8 minutes to Nibali in a 08 Giro tt.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Of course to go from 5th to then smash everyone for 2 minutes is still an extremely suspicious improvement, but i dont think Wiggins was quite on it when he lost 8 minutes to Nibali in a 08 Giro tt.

Noone gives Lance this excuse when Big Mig blows right by him. Noone. They just say, "Look - Lance was a B grader then he doped".

I do not understand why Wiggins gets this pass.. oh he wasn't quite on it. He was focusing on the track, etc, etc.

35,000km is what elite track riders do on the road in a year. Same as a pro roadie.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Didnt wiggins come 5th in the first 07 long Tour tt though? And as i recall that was pretty hilly.

Yes, he did. In fact, that is the TT your sig mentions, where he says,

Hopefully in 2 years time I might win the Time Trial and be a credible Time Trial winner because I haven't beaten someone by 2 minutes.

Coz Vino put 2 minutes into him then got done for EPO.

Then in 2012, Wiggins returns the favour, putting 2:25 into 5th place. But wants us all to believe that's credible. BUT he didn't win just the TT. He dominated the pro peloton from March to August.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Im clearly talking about the Tour de France tt. The olympics one Cancellara was obviously totally ****ed for and i think would have won comfortably (and yes i do think cancellara takes drugs).

I aknowledged in my own post, the one you are quoting, that i wont put too much stock in comparisons, so i dont quite get why you are throwing it back at me as if it is some rebuttal.

As above, not only did i not claim wiggins beating an injured Cancellara was evidence, I actually claimed the exact oposite.

Sorry if it came across as a direct interpretation of your viewpoint, it was meant as more scattergun attack on comments made on this thread and others in the clinic debating relative performances of riders and their palmeras.

I think there can be a tendency (not per se by yourself) to see performance of riders as set in stone throughout their career, which creates a platform to compare performances over the years and establish discrepancies that indicate drug use. the problem with using that as a template is the logic follows that, say is all 3 were riding clean then it would be always the same 3 riders in the top 3, in the same order, with the same time gaps. That clearly is erroneous, and I have tried to highlight the sheer number of variables that will affect riders beyond simply the fact they are clean or doped.

More likely that over a course of career a group of elite riders will continue to do well in ITTs, but that results will vary from race to race, from season to season, as form and other factors come into play (lets suspend disbelief for a moment and assume they are all clean). Form (yes there is such a thing), focus, preparation, nutrition, mental strength, local knowledge, crowd noise, equipment, health/injury, the parcours, weather conditions: all influence performance in tangible/intangible ways. Saying in in 2007 he lost to a rider by 40s and now in 2012 he beating the same rider by 2minutes isn't credible as a logical argument without being backed up by a host (and I mean host) of empirical date (training programs, nutrition etc).

Massive fluctuations in form, the donkey-to-racehorse-to-donkey kind, I can happily accept as being extremely suspicious, but based on his palmares I don't think that of Wiggins.

Again that is not directed at you Hitch, more a wider point to much I have read here

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Massive fluctuations in form, the donkey-to-racehorse-to-donkey kind, I can happily accept as being extremely suspicious, but based on his palmares I don't think that of Wiggins.

No. No donkey-to-racehorse here. Move along.

 

[The Hitch]

Yes, he did. In fact, that is the TT your sig mentions, where he says,


.

Exactly. And that is why Wiggins gets a "pass" for his 08 tt

I do not understand why Wiggins gets this pass.. oh he wasn't quite on it. He was focusing on the track, etc, etc.

 

[Dead Star]

No. No donkey-to-racehorse here. Move along.

Excellent photo. This is all explainable apparently...(!)