Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Dazed and Confused]

Simple. It's that easy.

All ProTour cyclists at a minimum were good at U23. There are 100's of French riders riding in their amatuter teams.

What's makes Froome II so special?

These breakthrough British riders appear to get "ill", disappear, then come back transformed into Indurian.

What's in the Ale over there in Blighty?

Froome is a late developer.
Suddenly the power flows to the legs at unseen rates.
Shreds fat and feels like a bird.
It really can happen to anybody.
Only Lucozade and large portions of cornflakes.

 

[Parker]

That was still years ago, and he went from being a solid rider accumulating fairly good results in 2.2 races and getting an occasional win from a breakaway, to a strong rider beating much stronger fields by being the class of the field.

What was the parcours of these 2.2 races? Surely that's important to know before judging. Or are all races exactly the same? He's a rider who excels on short climbs - unproven at the other stuff as far as I can see. Without that he's not likely to win.

As he moved up the ranks he got on to better teams and had more choice of races, thereby being able to pick ones that suit him. Put Rodriguez in a fairly flat 2.2 race (maybe with time trials) and he's not going to win either.

Your recent points on this thread seem to rely on all races being the same and all riders racing the same in those races.

 

[MatParker117]

On the calendar note British Cycling established an academy in Tuscany run by Max Sciandri and Rod Ellingworth and I assume the riders there (Cav, Thomas, Stannard, Swift, Kennaugh I could go on) competed on the Italian domestic calender.

 

[thehog]

Froome is a late developer.
Suddenly the power flows to the legs at unseen rates.
Shreds fat and feels like a bird.
It really can happen to anybody.
Only Lucozade and large portions of cornflakes.

Froome and Froome II (JTL) didn't know they were Tour potential until British Cycling told them.

Then they became good. Late bloomers.

Cancellera should learn from these two. He should try and lose weight to gain power.

 

[MatParker117]

Froome and Froome II (JTL) didn't know they were Tour potential until British Cycling told them.

Then they became good. Late bloomers.

Cancellera should learn from these two. He should try and lose weight to gain power.

Sky actually went after Cancellara before he signed with Leopard Trek.

 

[thehog]

Sky actually went after Cancellara before he signed with Leopard Trek.

Sky should have bought him, broke him apart, to create RoboFroome III.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Froome and Froome II (JTL) didn't know they were Tour potential until British Cycling told them.

Then they became good. Late bloomers.

Cancellera should learn from these two. He should try and lose weight to gain power.

Olympic TT.

Tony Martin laying dead against the fence simply not able to talk to anybody after the race. Silver by barely managing to beat Froome.

Froome coming in with little sweat, not needing water and ready to talk to the press while his eyes are on the clock checking lessor competitors..

Superior talent.

 

[Ferminal]

Which PEDs minimise perspiration?

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Which PEDs minimise perspiration?

None, the man was on a diet of water and bread. Pure talent.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Which PEDs minimise perspiration?

All of them if you're not going hard enough to break a sweat.

I have heard really low body fat people sweat less, but it was a sample size of 1, so unconfirmed.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Im amazed how stupid and reactionary your post is and posts(plural) recently, have become

"wah people say wiggins dopes like lance".

"Wah Wah people say wiggins is an arsehole"

Cry if you want but stop hijacking actual discussions that have nothing to do with these prior criticsism by constantly moaning about what people said 10 pages ago.

Since you missed it, I was actually explaining to you what Lance did that got him caught why it doesnt spell doom for every person who ever doped.

Since you seem incapable of understanding simple arguments like - "lance got caught because he made enemies of people that had the power to bring him down", maybe ill have a bit more luck by drawing you a picture.

2 criminals. Stiped white and blacked shirts, a bag over their shoulder and a mask over their head.

Criminal A - Shoots a person, tells 10 people about it and keeps the gun.

Criminal B - Shoots a person, tells his lawyer about it and throws the gun into the sea.

Do you understand why Criminal A was caught and what he could have done to avoid capture?

Or are you going to come back with some more moaning about how people dont like sky and say nasty things about them?

Edit: Ps, Criminal B is not Wiggins, just a hypothetical example of how people can get away with crimes if they put their head to it. Contrary to these imo stupid and childish ideas "you know youll eventually get caught" and "the lid will eventually come off".

At what point in my post did I simply insult you? Not once. Yet it's ok to call me 'stupid and reactionary' and 'incapable of understanding simple arguments' and proceed to patronise me? Oh yeah, stupid and childish too. Nice.

If you can't engage in debate without getting personally involved and resorting to petty insults I suggest you don't bother. Shame of it I've always respected you as a poster and my post wasn't meant to be that confrontational, just trying to interact with your assertion that Wiggins will never get caught because he's not like Lance, despite so many people saying he is. I'll avoid making the same mistake again

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Once again, Big Mig did dope to USPS levels.
He even failed a drugs test? Why hasnt his lid been blown? Why are the same people calling wiggins a clean tour winner saying Big Mig was the last clean tour winner before that?

Mig did fail a test for Salbutamol in early 1994 in France. Rumours abound that intergovernmental talks between Spain and France were necessary to make the problem "go away".

He couldn't test positive for EPO as he retired 4 years before the test was introduced.

Mig was a nice guy who didn't make enemies. His time will come, though.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Re JTL, would it be prudent to wait until he achieves Froome-like results before referring to him as Froome-II?

The history of all sports is littered with promising talents that fail to deliver.

 

[Galic Ho]

I don't know? Brailsford said “If you want spectacular, jumping all over the place, at crazy speeds, let them dope."

Not at all what you are implying.

Anquetil said something along those lines in the early days of drug testing, mid-sixties? Something like 'you want us to ride along at 15kph without drugs, or be entertained with us riding at 25kph with'

Its a story old as time

Same old story with you two. You really have no clue do you? So naive it is beyond a joke. That quote SundayRider gave is one of the most well known in modern cycling regarding doping. Ever heard of Hein Verbruggen? Oh I forgot, he doesn't originate from the UK. Nevermind.

PS: Stop wasting people's time with lies and false info. You had no clue, so why comment? Oh it's your heroes team...my bad. Christmas come early this year fellas?

 

[JimmyFingers]

That's because you are not separating the riders who have improved whilst under BC tutelage, from the sudden breakout performances from people not under that umbrella.

I am not suggesting an Eastern-Bloc-style statewide doping program; I am suggesting that it is not far-fetched to consider that, given that the British domestic calendar is pretty limited and Team Sky gives Britain a clear focus point to go to at the top level that has never been there before (previously British talents had to up and shop around on the continent, even as recently as Stannard, spending a year at Landbouwkrediet and a year at ISD before resurfacing at Sky), seeing such sudden and marked improvements from people who have not been through that development process but now see themselves becoming focal riders at Sky, is something that would - should - raise eyebrows. After all, these success stories of total out-of-nowhere-talents now find themselves in a position to benefit from all BC's hard work, a position that was never afforded previous generations of British talent.

Again - is it suspiciously convenient timing that these great riders have just happened to break out at the right time despite not really showing any previous signs that it was likely? Or is it just that talents of previous generations didn't get the nurturing, or without that clear and precise British goal to aspire to were more directionless as riders? After all, Jamie Burrow could, from his early results, feasibly have been better than Froome and Tiernan-Locke put together. Was it just that he was born at the wrong time and they were fortunate enough to be born at the right time?

You say that I'm saying a generation of talent is other than nurture and investment, but where is the nurture and investment in the case of guys like Froome and Tiernan-Locke? Yet they've made bigger strides, far more suddenly and far more intensely, than any of the guys that BC have been carefully developing. If we're going to credit BC for the upswing in British cycling talent, then how do we reconcile that with Froome and Tiernan-Locke, not within British Cycling, improving more, more quickly, and being better than, almost all of BC's pet projects who have received far more investment and nurture?

You seem to contradict yourself slightly with the two statements I've highlighted. Personally I would say it's far-fetched to say BC is undertaking Eastern-bloc style doping, meaning an entire generation of British cyclists and cycling staff have taken the moral decision to turn to dope to achieve results. You're are saying hundreds even thousands of people might be complicit in a grand deception. For me that is a bridge to far to even hint at without more concrete information to go on beyond 'convenience'. As I said, it's like saying British cyclists could never be good, so they must dope to achieve results.

Yet the example you cite are JTL and Froome, who aren't part of the 'academy' of BC, but whose talents have developed independently of BC and the suggested doping programme that is being run by them. Are you saying they are the exception that proves the rule?

Firstly I say, as others are saying, we have to wait and see how JTL will fair when he plays with the big boys. He did well at the worlds but he's comepletely unproven at GT level, so surely we have to reserve judgement on him as to whether he is 'improving more, more quickly, and being better than, almost all of BC's pet projects'. He has already had to field accusations of doping, and the suspicions aren't belied at all because the absence of a biological passport until now. That said, given who does the testing, the passport doesn't count for too much but now he is at pro-tour level he will get pro-tour testing. I think we should re-visit this conversation in about 12 months time.

As for Froome there's not a lot I'll say to defend him from accusations of doping quite frankly. I've said already if there's two members of Sky I'm suspicious of it's Rogers and Froome, but if he is doping I do think he's doing independently of Sky and BC. An opinion of course.

As for previous generations of riders, yes I am sure they suffered because of a lack of infrastructure to nurture them. By banning road racing in this country in the early half of the twentienth century they gave the continent a 50 year head start on us, and we've been playing catch up ever since. I would further qualify that by saying we've only been making a serious attempt at playing catch up in the last 10-15 years.

I think you to look at where road-racing is in the British psyche. I don't by and large we get it, it's seen as a continental eccentricism, these cobbled classics, hilly classics, monuments, Grand Tours. We don't understand how it fits together, we don't understand the history of the sport because it's not part of the sporting culture here. So historically very little was shown on TV, and reported in the papers. We got the Tour once a year on one of our 4 channels when I was growing up, and then we lost that, and even up until last year you only got ITV showing the Tour and on the back of that the Vuelta. And still that is on ITV4, so not a 'main' channel. And you'd still need Eurosport at least to watch early season classics and the shorter stage races. ITV will probably show the Giro this year as well but I doubt much else.

To be a road-racing fan in Britain until recently meant you were a bit odd, and you weren't cheering on British riders, you were cheering Italians and French and Belgians, so it took on this almost mythical, exotic appeal full of panache and style and daring-do. British riders were mostly lone guns, who had to decamp to the continent with their bike, away from their family and friends and try to make their way as a pro as best they could. Given the cultural and language difference, you should appreciate that was no easy thing.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Same old story with you two. You really have no clue do you? So naive it is beyond a joke. That quote SundayRider gave is one of the most well known in modern cycling regarding doping. Ever heard of Hein Verbruggen? Oh I forgot, he doesn't originate from the UK. Nevermind.

PS: Stop wasting people's time with lies and false info. You had no clue, so why comment? Oh it's your heroes team...my bad. Christmas come early this year fellas?

Put simply, you are the biggest waste of time on this forum. That is all.

 

[Galic Ho]

Froome is going to feel the same team support as Alberto in '09, and totally crush his own team (riding away from them in the TTT), only to have non on the team to fetch bottles for him, so Sky essentially is an 8 man team from the start, and Froome goes Gadret style!

I have a feeling they'll deal with him before the Tour this time. Either he gets popped or the Bilhazaria or whatever his blood illness is, takes a nasty turn for the worse. Can't have Wiggins feelings hurt. After all he and Davey boy go WWWWWAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY back.

The only way Froome gets a shot at the Tour is if Brailsford agrees to let Wiggins focus on the Tour knowing that Brad might not beat Contador. But why now? Why is Wiggins turning on Froome now, when in October he was cool with the Giro? Parcours hasn't changed. Oh wait...has Vino scared Wiggins away? Could Astana's team presentation in Astana and their declaration to get Nibali the Giro win have upset Brad that much? No, no and no the Sky fanboys will cry. Hard love children. The Nibali man, is a doper. A Ferrari client. Sound like the grapevine whispers made their way to lil old UK soil and have upset the Sky big clean riders.

I mean after all, tag teaming Contador is a much smarter idea than taking Nibali on all alone with Rogers and Froome to hold your hand isn't it? Thank you Sky for the gift that keeps on giving. Your incessant idiocy and brashness will be a great source of laughs for 2013. Thank you Sky for your clean riding and perseverance.

And for those worrying about what I've said. Alas and fret not. The world will not end next Thursday. These guys said so and we will get to see Sky go full *** and beyond in 2013!

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/2012.html

 

[del1962]

Olympic TT.

Tony Martin laying dead against the fence simply not able to talk to anybody after the race. Silver by barely managing to beat Froome.

Froome coming in with little sweat, not needing water and ready to talk to the press while his eyes are on the clock checking lessor competitors..

Superior talent.

To be fair, Martin was recovering from injuries that had effected his season, so to even come second given what had happened was an amazing acheivement (I am not suprised he was in such a condition at the end), if he and Cancellara had injury free run ups to the TT then Froome would not have had a medal and BMW may not have had Gold.

 

[Galic Ho]

Put simply, you are the biggest waste of time on this forum. That is all.

Oh but Jimmy, I was going to give you a Christmas Present! Why the long face little Jimmy? We both know a way to make Big Jimmy all happy! Do send me your address so I can forward you the phone numbers you so desperately are hoping for.

Oh and for real...get your facts right. If you actually followed cycling you and Pedro would both have known that. It's not like it was a very thorough and well placed quote in a book you may have read that talked about that guy who doped who Wiggins fawned about and was written by said dopers former friend and a guy who also won a gold medal just like your hero. You know, like Clinic 101 basic knowledge. Keep it real homes or I might send Ali G round to your place with his Gold coloured Savile trackies on.

I loved the rebuking of Libertine and The Hitch BTW. Classy dude, classy. I liked the part where you assumed The Hitch was offended and you jumped onto the wrong foot from the start. "I respected you." Yeah of course you did, until you heard something uncomfortable that doesn't sit well with your enlightened world view of Sky. Send me that address so your respect can get forwarded to the people that matter to you...don't keep me waiting as I am doing you a favour.

 

[Galic Ho]

Sky should have bought him, broke him apart, to create RoboFroome III.

Sky have the 6 Million Dollar Man patent. And it works. If Froome can almost win a GT, heck I'd wager with the right bottle of Sky wonder lotion almost anyone could. Just gotta be part Brit down the ancestry tree somewhere to do it.

Actually could you imagine the TTT at the Tour with Cancellara on their team? Wiggins, Froome, Porte, Stennard, Thomas and Kennaugh all pulled by super lightweight Fabian Cancellara. I'd pay to see that. Would be more ridiculous than the Gewiss and Mapei triple podiums from the mid 90s.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Put simply, you are the biggest waste of time on this forum. That is all.

My advice is put him on ignore list. Single worst poster on this forum. I may not agree with others on the forum but at least they can construct a sentence.

Funny how he disappeared from the forum when Wiggins was close to winning the Tour after writing pages about how he would never do it. Probably spent weeks crying under his Justin Bieber bed covers.

 

[The Hitch]

At what point in my post did I simply insult you? Not once. Yet it's ok to call me 'stupid and reactionary' and 'incapable of understanding simple arguments' and proceed to patronise me? Oh yeah, stupid and childish too. Nice.

If you can't engage in debate without getting personally involved and resorting to petty insults I suggest you don't bother. Shame of it I've always respected you as a poster and my post wasn't meant to be that confrontational, just trying to interact with your assertion that Wiggins will never get caught because he's not like Lance, despite so many people saying he is. I'll avoid making the same mistake again

No you didn't insult me and i apologise for.insulting you, but not for the first time you hijacked the discussion by moaning that people don't like wiggins.

I took the time to explain to you why not all.criminals get caught and explain the very obvious mistakes that lance made that led to his fall.

Your response was - i thought both wiggins and lance are arseholes, which ignores everything i posted. You then remake the - they all eventually get caught, argument, without even bothering to aknowledge any of the points i made challenging it.

So you shouldn't be surprised if people are frustrated when you respond to them.by ignoring everything they just said.

 

[JimmyFingers]

No you didn't insult me and i apologise for.insulting you, but not for the first time you hijacked the discussion by moaning that people don't like wiggins.

I took the time to explain to you why not all.criminals get caught and explain the very obvious mistakes that lance made that led to his fall.

Your response was - i thought both wiggins and lance are arseholes, which ignores everything i posted. You then remake the - they all eventually get caught, argument, without even bothering to aknowledge any of the points i made challenging it.

So you shouldn't be surprised if people are frustrated when you respond to them.by ignoring everything they just said.

Fair enough, I'll take that on the chin I probably did do that... a little.

I take your point that what Lance did was incredibly arrogant: he thought he was untouchable, and if anyone stood up to him he bullied them into silence. So not only did he cheat in an obvious way, leaving plenty of evidence around and lots of eye-witnesses, he also alienated and made enemies of so many around him. By commiting the act in such an overt way, and giving people the motivation to betray him he was effectively hoisted by his own petard.

The question remains whether he might have got away with it had he done it differently, if he, as you put it, used 2% more intelligence. You cite Indurain as someone who has managed to get away with it, which I will not necessarily dispute not knowing enough to comment.

The reason I took the tack I did is because I have heard time and time again how much Wiggins is like Lance, and Sky like USPS. Because of that I may have come across as being facetuious, and you didn't deserve that because you're not one of the people that say it. But I find it frustrating that so many people discuss a rider's character and use it is evidence of doping, when it's irrelevant.

 

[SundayRider]

The BBC is going to look pretty daft when Wiggins gets awarded SPOTY this coming weekend. Then has to strip him of the award in a few years...

 

[JimmyFingers]

The BBC is going to look pretty daft when Wiggins gets awarded SPOTY this coming weekend. Then has to strip him of the award in a few years...

It's fine, the BBC are good at that. Just look at the Jimmy Saville mess