Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[sniper]

...
Then again, one has to wonder why Sky and the ASO got together so the team could present its riders' blood values. It is almost as if everyone wanted to know that the plan was on track.

this.
funny also to hear the Sky spokesman denying that any donations had been made. he wasn't even being asked about donations.

Then there was McQuaid telling people he would not be able to attend Sky's victory party for the Tour win weeks before Wiggins won.

what a freudian slip that was.

And now we know why the Tour routes have been neutered the since 2009. The presentation undoubtedly came with estimates for media revenue growth the ASO could expect if road cycling increased viewership in the UK. The ASO has been planning on a British winner for years.

another excellent point.

 

[Joachim]

To the second point, you're welcome to hold on to "unproven", but you should include Hamilton's allegations of a close/improper relationship between Armstrong and Hein Verbruggen.

That is the relationship I'm talking about. It's an allegation, though unproven as yet, that I believe. But the theory your are putting forward with regards to ASO is of an entirely different order.

You're misrepresenting ASO's situation. Their event is running very low on credibility. They can hardly afford to have another dirty winner. What they need is to guarantee a "believeable" winner, and I think that's what they did with the british household name Wiggins. But yes there are stakes on eventual discovery also.

Eh? That is exactly what I am saying. The TdF is in a parlous state. ASO can barely afford another scandal. I think we agree on that. What they "need is to guarantee" no more scandals. They can't achieve that by scandal. That is a nonsensical notion.

And finally, the 2012 Tour was just not an open race. At the time or with hindsight, Sky had it locked down - it's not a controversial view to take. It's just a matter of how it was done.

I think Sky did everything they could to lock it down, and it is for that reason that I think this will be Wiggins sole GT win. I don't think he'll be prepared to put himself through the mill again.

 

[Joachim]

And now we know why the Tour routes have been neutered the since 2009. The presentation undoubtedly came with estimates for media revenue growth the ASO could expect if road cycling increased viewership in the UK. The ASO has been planning on a British winner for years.

....and yet, the Tour is shown on free-to-view terrestrial Tv by ITV4, a very minor channel. They bought the rights 10 years ago for £1m. Viewing has increased by a third, but a third of not very much is even less.

If there is the great big fix that some are suggesting, you would expect a strategic renegotiation after the win.

That renegotiation came in January 2012, 7 months prior to the tour even taking place, and the rights were granted until 2015.

By contrast, the UK football premiership rights cost £3 billion.

In the Uk, cycling is nothing.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Wiggo did 480 watts at the olympics according to some. Not sure what Lance did though.

Had a search, couldn't find the OQ.
General reports and consensus on here has the figure at 430-450 watts.
A lot of technical debate, on several threads.
Watts/kilo tend to vary between sceptic and non-sceptic 6.4-6.0.
Low end is "believable", top end ain't.

Source? And was that touched 480 or averaged 480 for the hour?

From another thread Lemond able to produce 450-460 watts for 1 hour-fresh.
Talks about the '90s dopers churning out +500 watts.

http://bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/lemond.html

 

[taiwan]

Eh? That is exactly what I am saying. The TdF is in a parlous state. ASO can barely afford another scandal. I think we agree on that. What they "need is to guarantee" no more scandals. They can't achieve that by scandal. That is a nonsensical notion.

Scandal is the reaction to what ASO do, not their action. Not doing anything scandalous is only one way to avoid scandal.

What you're saying is that ASO would have no part in any manipulation of the event for fear of further scandal. What I'm saying is that precisely because there have been so many scandals already, the ASO would not be inclined to leave anything to chance and would be backing the same outcome as the UCI and Team Sky.

"However when a blog on Skysports let slip that the British team of Bradley Wiggins and Mark Cavendish had made a presentation to ASO ahead of this year’s Tour de France, it raised eyebrows – especially when the blog mentioned that part of the presentation was to ensure they ‘won't get any nasty surprises’."

 

[Froome19]

http://www.cyclingpowerlab.com/ProRaceAnalysis.aspx

Go to 2012 Olympics.

But seeing as according to that Martin did 10 less on his way to winning the World Champs when he was fit and undoubtedly in better shape I do not how accurate that is.

 

[BroDeal]

One of the more amazing things about this thing is the sheer chutzpah it took for Brailsford to sell the people this clean cycling scam. From 2009, before the team was even formed, he was telling the ASO he planned to win the TdF. At that time anyone with the barest knowledge of cycling knew that blood vector doping had been endemic for almost two decades and there had not been a clean Tour winner for nearly twenty years. There is no possible way that Brailsford thought his team could win the Tour with a clean winner. Nobody in Brailsford's position can be that naive. I do not see how the conclusion can be escaped that the plan from the beginning was to dope their way to a win. To run a huge PR campaign proclaiming the team's cleanliness is the type of chutzpah it took for Armstrong to give his "believe in miracles" speech in 2005. Well, chutzpah or cynicism.

 

[MatParker117]

Had a search, couldn't find the OQ.
General reports and consensus on here has the figure at 430-450 watts.
A lot of technical debate, on several threads.
Watts/kilo tend to vary between sceptic and non-sceptic 6.4-6.0.
Low end is "believable", top end ain't.




From another thread Lemond able to produce 450-460 watts for 1 hour-fresh.
Talks about the '90s dopers churning out +500 watts.

http://bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/lemond.html

Shane Sutton stated on a Sky documentary that during Paris-Nice this year that Wiggins averaged 440 watts for about 30 minutes.

 

[Joachim]

What you're saying is that ASO would have no part in any manipulation of the event for fear of further scandal. What I'm saying is that precisely because there have been so many scandals already, the ASO would not be inclined to leave anything to chance and would be backing the same outcome as the UCI and Team Sky.

No that is not what I am saying. I think the ASO may have provided a parcours suited to Wiggins. That is manipulating the event.

It is another thing entirely to say that they are somehow giving Sky impunity to dope to the max, in collusion with the UCI as is being suggested here.

What on earth makes people think the ASO and the UCI have a close, trusting relationship?

 

[BroDeal]

Scandal is the reaction to what ASO do, not their action. Not doing anything scandalous is only one way to avoid scandal.

What you're saying is that ASO would have no part in any manipulation of the event for fear of further scandal. What I'm saying is that precisely because there have been so many scandals already, the ASO would not be inclined to leave anything to chance and would be backing the same outcome as the UCI and Team Sky.

The ASO started down that path when it kicked Clerc out and put Prudhomme in. L'Equipe was ordered not to do any more doping investigations. It was only to be reactive to doping stories. The ASO made nice with the ASO, meaning the AFLD would not do the sort of testing that led to a quarter of the stage winners in 2008 testing positive. The ASO met with Armstrong and paved the way for his return, so the precedent of turning a blind eye to a specific doper had already been set.

 

[sniper]

...
What on earth makes people think the ASO have a close, trusting relationship?

read up a bit on the hate-love history between ASO and UCI/Armstrong and you'll be able to understand better what is meant with "avoiding nasty surprises".
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/clerc-calls-on-aso-to-assume-greater-responsibility

 

[King Of The Wolds]

One of the more amazing things about this thing is the sheer chutzpah it took for Brailsford to sell the people this clean cycling scam. From 2009, before the team was even formed, he was telling the ASO he planned to win the TdF. At that time anyone with the barest knowledge of cycling knew that blood vector doping had been endemic for almost two decades and their had not been a clean Tour winner for nearly twenty years. There is no possible way that Brailsford thought his team could win the Tour with a clean winner. Nobody in Brailsford's position can be that naive. I do not see how the conclusion can be escaped that the plan from the beginning was to dope their way to a win. To run a huge PR campaign proclaiming the team's cleanliness is the type of chutzpah it took for Armstrong to give his "believe in miracles" speech in 2005. Well, chutzpah or cynicism.

Why is Brailsford different to any other Team Principal who believes that they can win the Tour clean?

 

[sniper]

Clerc with some true words:

CLERC: “Armstrong is dead, may he rest in peace. But today, the system that enabled this needs to be dismantled. If it’s not taken apart, if we don’t identify what didn’t work, then cycling won’t get out of this. The system in which these practices thrived is still the same. The men are the same: from the rule makers to the financiers of the UCI, the team managers…”

Paradoxically, however, throughout the scandal-ridden 14 years that have followed the Festina affair, the Tour has continued to be a huge economic success. Against that backdrop, Clerc was pessimistic about the chances to finding real desire for change.

“You can’t deny the success of the Tour: the television audiences are good, the newspapers are full of coverage in July, the local councils battle to host stages,” Clerc said. “Since 1998 and the Festina affair, the Tour has survived a number of earthquakes. Armstrong’s fall is the latest episode of the great soap opera of the Tour de France, which is going to celebrate its 100th edition! So I fear that this revolution is never going to materialise.” http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/clerc-calls-on-aso-to-assume-greater-responsibility

Certainly puts mcquaid's words in a clear perspective:

PHAT: "Look at Wiggins this year. I think the sport is in a very good position. Cycling shouldn't be judged on the Lance Armstrong story. It should be judged on the Olympic Games. 1.5 million people for the road race, the Velodrome was the hottest in terms of atmosphere. The BMX was hugely successful, the mountain biking was hugely successful. The sport is in a great place and is growing.

"So I don't think this is going to have any huge negative effect on the sport. Things are going in the right direction."http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mcquaid-all-ive-done-since-i-became-president-is-fight-doping

 

[Joachim]

Thank you for posting that Clerc stuff. Good post.

 

[taiwan]

No that is not what I am saying. I think the ASO may have provided a parcours suited to Wiggins. That is manipulating the event.

It is another thing entirely to say that they are somehow giving Sky impunity to dope to the max, in collusion with the UCI as is being suggested -here.

What on earth makes people think the ASO have a close, trusting relationship?

Yes the ASO pretty much provided a course suited to Wiggins. You could take from that their interest in a Wiggins win.

Possibly I overstated the level of collusion Between the organiser and governing body, but then they apparently wanted the same thing, and neither is under any illusions. Not really in the ASO's power to give sky "impunity to dope to the max", and I was never talking about balls-out doping at this day in age. But at least, they had their favourite and did what they could to bring about the desired outcome, and with the moral perspective of an insider of cycling. Their choice: risk a Ricco type, or support an Armstrong type doper.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

Yes the ASO pretty much provided a course suited to Wiggins. You could take from that their interest in a Wiggins win.

1. 100km of TTing is a very small amount compared to many, fairly recent editions.

2. The route also looked like it favoured the previous year's winner, who produced an astonishing TT himself in the 2011 edition. In fact, when it was announced, it looked like it might be a parcours ideally suited to a 3 way battle royal between Wiggins, Evans and Contador.

 

[Joachim]

Their choice: risk a Ricco type, or support an Armstrong type doper.

That is what is known as a 'false dilemna'

Those weren't the only two choices available to them, although quite possibly the only two that you can think of

 

[sniper]

The ASO started down that path when it kicked Clerc out and put Prudhomme in.

You can rest assured that the Tour Directeur Christian Prudhomme, a big supporter of Wiggins who he sees as the best advertisement there is for clean cycling, will be hoping that the 2012 champion turns up in Corsica as something as other than a super-domestique. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...nally-realising-what-he-achieved-in-2012.html

who would have guessed

 

[sniper]

more Klartext from Prudhomme:

Christian Prudhomme, Tour director said: "This Tour marks the beginning of a new world; a world that speaks English and is becoming more and more prominent in cycling." http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/shortcuts/2012/jul/23/bradley-wiggins-what-the-french-really-think

Prudhomme and McQuaid: two hands on one belly.


Evans had this to say about the 2012 parcours:

"These climbs are a long way from the finish and with the defence that Sky do, there's not a lot we can do to combat that.
http://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/al-hinds/blog/126476/prudhomme-s-vision-blurred-by-sky

 

[sniper]

http://www.examiner.com/article/tour-boss-prudhomme-says-anlgophone-teams-are-changing-cycle-sport

Speaking to Sporza.be, Prudhomme said, "There is clearly a change in cycling. The Anglo-Saxon countries are taking the place of the traditional countries such as Belgium, Italy and Spain. It's amazing how teams like Sky prepare everything."

@Joachim/Kingoftheworlds:
ask yourself this: why are both McQuaid and Prudhomme talking about Sky/Wiggins with so much friggin confidence? Considering the Lance earthquake, surely we'd expect them to be a hell of a lot more prudent, right? So why aren't they? Smells fishy. period. They know there aint gonna be no postests.

Just close your eyes now and imagine what a Wiggins postest would mean for both ASO and UCI.

not gonna happen.

 

[The Hitch]

who would have guessed

Please remind me of this vomit enducing article in July just in case my mind and heart forget why its so important that Contador wins.

 

[Joachim]

http://www.examiner.com/article/tour-boss-prudhomme-says-anlgophone-teams-are-changing-cycle-sport



@Joachim/Kingoftheworlds:
ask yourself this: why are both McQuaid and Prudhomme talking about Sky/Wiggins with so much friggin confidence? Considering the Lance earthquake, surely we'd expect them to be a hell of a lot more prudent, right? So why aren't they? Smells fishy. period. They know there aint gonna be no postests.

Just close your eyes now and imagine what a Wiggins postest would mean for both ASO and UCI.

not gonna happen.

Lance never tested positive.

His cheating came out through other means, and started before his first win was cold.

What you suggest is betting the house, the car and the kids on one thing.

You might be right, but I dont think an organisation like ASO would like those odds. Remember, the Armstrong stuff came out. It's still coming.

 

[taiwan]

That is what is known as a 'false dilemna'

Those weren't the only two choices available to them, although quite possibly the only two that youm can think of

Do tell. AFAIK you can have someone who dopes and serves your purposes or someone who dopes and doesn't.

 

[sniper]

Lance never tested positive.

His cheating came out through other means, and started before his first win was cold.

What you suggest is betting the house, the car and the kids on one thing.

You might be right, but I dont think an organisation like ASO would like those odds. Remember, the Armstrong stuff came out. It's still coming.

Joachim, you're not getting it, though you're getting close:
indeed, Lance never tested positive, he singlehandedly made anti-doping testing look like a joke.
So tell me, with that knowledge, how the hell can prudhomme and pat be so darn confident about Sky being clean?

 

[Joachim]

Do tell. AFAIK you can have someone who dopes and serves your purposes or someone who dopes and doesn't.

You can also have someone who doesn't dope.