Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Dr. Maserati]

Oh yes, why are Sky winning and better than everyone else? Well, they do happen to have more money than most other teams. And, even Vaughters says they're particularly adept at recruiting the riders they need to fit into their team structure.

From his Twitter feed tonight:

Key is Sky buys guys to be workers that are outright talents. I can think of 8-9 they have that have higher earning than my #1

dont get me wrong, a precious few other teams have similar budgets, but are as good at recruiting.

I respect their model a lot. Even though I still hate the fact we lost Wiggo.

their final climb tactics are very intelligent and neuter explosive climbers. But you need 3-4 €600,000+ domestiques to make work.

No doubt I'll get abuse from the blinkered Sky haters who will always bleat on about them doping, just because they're winning. Like others have said, some things look suspicious, but each time someone brings up some "evidence" that they're doping (usually based on performance observations), it gets countered, which then releases the forum venom-spitters.

You're very late to the party - the 'mo money' argument falls on the simple fact that they have turned some ordinary riders in to GT contenders and their doms in to dropping most other team leaders.

How much do you think they paid Froome in 2010?

Edit - and while it was cute that you are worried that you will get 'abuse' it might have been better if you didn't try and 'abuse' people yourself.

Perhaps I was guilty of separating the actual doping, where I think Rabo seem to have given Armstrong/Bruyneel a good run for their money, from Lance's more general sociopathy, which of course, was without peer.

But to be honest, I wouldn't give a damn about his foundation even if he was clean as a whistle - i certainly don't give a monkey's about BWF, and my jury's till just about out on him.

I know it's boring, but i care about the sport, and about anti-doping. C'est ca.

Then you are still way off - Rabo at best were doing in 2003 what USPS had refined by then, and a Ferrari program trumps any other quack.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Probably because he understands the truth, and is more open-minded than the blinkered rabid Sky haters that prevail around here. According to them, no one is allowed to improve after moving to a top-line, well-funded professional team. Maybe we should just feed everyone's figures into a spreadsheet, and the riders can sit around pontificating like everyone else.

Sky riders win because:

* Sky can afford the buy the absolute best riders
* Sky have years of empirical track training techniques behind them - where techniques are used to gain fractions of a second, which mean the difference between gold medal and no medal. These techniques are used in the road Procycling team. Yeah, it's very boring, seeing riders staring at computers and listening to data being fed to them over the radio, but that's how the races are set up. It's much more fun to watch Tommy Voeckler gurning his way up hills.

LMFAO @ this crap. Same recycled crap as the US Postal fanboys. Exactly.

 

[BYOP88]

Probably because he understands the truth, and is more open-minded than the blinkered rabid Sky haters that prevail around here. According to them, no one is allowed to improve after moving to a top-line, well-funded professional team. Maybe we should just feed everyone's figures into a spreadsheet, and the riders can sit around pontificating like everyone else.

Sky riders win because:

* Sky can afford the buy the absolute best riders
* Sky have years of empirical track training techniques behind them - where techniques are used to gain fractions of a second, which mean the difference between gold medal and no medal. These techniques are used in the road Procycling team. Yeah, it's very boring, seeing riders staring at computers and listening to data being fed to them over the radio, but that's how the races are set up. It's much more fun to watch Tommy Voeckler gurning his way up hills.

And then drop off back to their old level or below, the minute they leave Sky.

 

[martinvickers]

You're very late to the party - the 'mo money' argument falls on the simple fact that they have turned some ordinary riders in to GT contenders and their doms in to dropping most other team leaders.

How much do you think they paid Froome in 2010?

Edit - and while it was cute that you are worried that you will get 'abuse' it might have been better if you didn't try and 'abuse' people yourself.

Then you are still way off - Rabo at best were doing in 2003 what USPS had refined by then, and a Ferrari program trumps any other quack.

I have an old version of cycling manager, 2009 or 10 i believe. You hire doctors in it. Ferrari is listed in the 'legendary' category. Always makes me shake my head, that.

Well, we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree for a while till the whole Rabo story comes out. Doesn't really matter morally - both a cheating pack of sh1ts.

 

[sittingbison]

Hog, do you think we have seen the full *** yet or is there more to come?

It's a good question....Now you have to 'appear' clean....Basically it's full *** disguised as 'medio retardo'....So, yes, you'll see full *** but under disguise...

In the words of the great Keyser Soze:

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist

 

[thehog]

Thank you for reiterating the same tired stupid argument that US Postal groupies were regurgitating in the early 2000s. You're as wrong as they were. At least Postal's domestiques (Heras, Rubiera) had a modicum of palmares before they joined the team. Froome was best known for climbing sideways.

Katusha have Russian money, Eki and JRod.

I mean why don't they do what Sky do? Just hire loads of guys, stick them on the front and ride 550w-a-block? JRod can win the Tour and every other race he enters.

He has a great finish.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Katusha have Russian money, Eki and JRod.

I mean why don't they do what Sky do? Just hire loads of guys, stick them on the front and ride 550w-a-block? JRod can win the Tour and every other race he enters.

He has a great finish.

I'm getting more and more certain that it's a case of "allowable retardation".

Old Eastern Bloc had their time, as have others, on to the Anglos...

 

[thehog]

I'm getting more and more certain that it's a case of "allowable retardation".

Old Eastern Bloc had their time, as have others, on to the Anglos...

Of course. The missing ingredient. You need *** on the inside.

Enablement.

And someone patent the term 'allowable retardation'.

 

[doolols]

You're very late to the party - the 'mo money' argument falls on the simple fact that they have turned some ordinary riders in to GT contenders and their doms in to dropping most other team leaders.

Nah, not late to the party. I've been saying the same, on and off, for a year or more.

Edit - and while it was cute that you are worried that you will get 'abuse' it might have been better if you didn't try and 'abuse' people yourself.

You'll notice I didn't abuse any particular person on here. Unlike some others who very pointedly do, when they find someone who doesn't agree with their twisted point of view.

Katusha have Russian money, Eki and JRod.

I mean why don't they do what Sky do? Just hire loads of guys, stick them on the front and ride 550w-a-block? JRod can win the Tour and every other race he enters.

They probably will do, when they get around to thinking like Sky do, and work on building a team to achieve a specific goal.

 

[BroDeal]

I'm not aware. What's the cause?

It's sort of like Hair Club for Men but for bone-idle wankers.

"Hi, I'm Brad. I used to be a bone-idle wanker and a drunk to boot. After joining the Bradley Wiggins Club for Bone-Idle Wankers I now have the energy to play sports, dress in a style that is forty years out of date, and carry on affairs with beautiful women. I owe it all the to club. I am not only a client of the Bradley Wiggins Club for Bone-Idle Wankers, I'm the president."

 

[sittingbison]

Armstrong takes another hit. He was hoping to hold on to the title for most sophisticated doping program in sport but it looks like there is new title holder that makes him look like a piker.

He's in danger of losing it to Rabo retrospectively anyway. LA was cheating scum. but he was far from alone.

Nah Rabo just doped and lied. Thats standard formula....

...I think Rabo seem to have given Armstrong/Bruyneel a good run for their money....

soooooo.....let me get this straight:
1) Lance/Hogs USPS/Disco systematic team doping program designed and orchestrated by Dr Ferrari, subsequently described by Tygart as the greatest sporting doping scandal and fraud every perpetrated.

2) Rabobanks systematic team doping program was designed and implemented by Dr Geert Leinders. Subsequently caught up in fraud trials in Holland/Belgium. And named by Chicken and others.

3) Rabobank trumps USPS/Disco as "the most sophisticated doping program in sport"

4) SKY employ Dr Geert Leinders, and subsequently improve from a bunch of laughingstock hacks to dominating the 2011 Veulta, dominating the early 2012 season, winning the TdF, Olympic Gold and World Championship, and now crushing the fields in two races simultaneously.

nothing to see here. move along

 

[thehog]

They probably will do, when they get around to thinking like Sky do, and work on building a team to achieve a specific goal.

I agree. They will employ a systematic doping plan.

Welcome to the new arms race.

It has begun.

 

[doolols]

SKY employ Dr Geert Leinders, and subsequently improve from a bunch of laughingstock hacks to dominating the 2011 Veulta, dominating the early 2012 season, winning the TdF, Olympic Gold and World Championship, and now crushing the fields in two races simultaneously.

The bolded is a little harsh, I feel

Anyone have any proof of doping within Sky (as opposed to the "they must be doping" philosophy)? Anyone? No? Didn't think so.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Nah, not late to the party. I've been saying the same, on and off, for a year or more.

How can you say the same thing as a year ago?
The party said ZTP on the door, they had to turf a lot of people out. but it was a great party while it lasted.

You'll notice I didn't abuse any particular person on here. Unlike some others who very pointedly do, when they find someone who doesn't agree with their twisted point of view.

No, you just abused everyone.
Why don't you name the people who abuse - let the mods sort it.

And what exactly constitutes a 'twisted point of view'?

They probably will do, when they get around to thinking like Sky do, and work on building a team to achieve a specific goal.

Skys specific goal appears to be win everything. What other goals are left?

 

[The Hitch]

Stupid liquigas. If only they had been paying agnoli and co 600 000 each those same riders would have been able to match sky in the mountains.

 

[the sceptic]

I agree. They will employ a systematic doping plan.

Welcome to the new arms race.

It has begun.

Wont be any arms race until the cat is out of the bag. So far it looks like no other team has a clue what Sky are up to.

 

[Cyivel]

It's a good question.

If this was 1997 or 2002 you could go full *** and no one would say much.

Now you have to 'appear' clean.

So going full *** one has to show some 'restraint'. Hard to do in the heat of the battle.

Thus the battle plan is good. If you smash the entire field into the ground for the first 90% of the stage so they can't attack. Then you go full *** in the last 1-2km. That way you don't look overly ***. Just a little bit ***.

Basically it's full *** disguised as 'medio retardo'.

The greatest magic of this tactic is no one notices that the dom is spending more time on the front at maximum wattage than anyone in the entire field. They all comment on the winner saying he's under 6.0. The dom is punching 5.8-6.0 for 50km! Then drops off. And he's doing this day after day, after day.

Insane.

So, yes, you'll see full *** but under disguise.

The next question is... what's the point?

Thanks, interesting, very interesting.

I do wonder if Froome will go rogue and do something ridiculous on a climb in the Tour as he doesn't seem as under control as Wiggins, Wiggins would sit behind the train all day everyday pumping out the wattage, Froome doesn't seem to have the same mentality, needs to show he can beat anyone, Sky need to calm him down for their own good.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The bolded is a little harsh, I feel

Anyone have any proof of doping within Sky (as opposed to the "they must be doping" philosophy)? Anyone? No? Didn't think so.

Please tell what constitutes proof - you do realize this is an internet forum? You can take off the wig and gown, m'lord.

 

[Escarabajo]

Probably because he understands the truth, and is more open-minded than the blinkered rabid Sky haters that prevail around here. According to them, no one is allowed to improve after moving to a top-line, well-funded professional team. Maybe we should just feed everyone's figures into a spreadsheet, and the riders can sit around pontificating like everyone else.

Sky riders win because:

* Sky can afford the buy the absolute best riders
* Sky have years of empirical track training techniques behind them - where techniques are used to gain fractions of a second, which mean the difference between gold medal and no medal. These techniques are used in the road Procycling team. Yeah, it's very boring, seeing riders staring at computers and listening to data being fed to them over the radio, but that's how the races are set up. It's much more fun to watch Tommy Voeckler gurning his way up hills.

Am I hearing again the same excuses as for the US Postal?

 

[Galic Ho]

I can understand Benotti69, sniper, hrotha and other guys, who apparently are strongly against doping first of all and only then can support some riders (probably, sorry, I don't know for sure). But I see there many forumities who are simply insulted by the fact that Sky boys DARED to beat their favorites. And Sky train is only an explanation to justify this discontent. Grievance is a key word for me here. It is very odd.

But my question is directed on everyone: is it possible to be much stronger than all the rest technically and physically without doping??? I don't consider Sky much stronger than rest of the field, but still... They just have the best domestiques and very likely best captains or best performers, if you like.

What do you think?

It's always about the numbers. Historical data versus empirical studies and statistical bell curves. You have a natural limit. Where that falls relative to a given population can be measured. A clean rider cannot go beyond their limit. Doping shifts the bell curve. A rider who was near the mean can suddenly move 1 or 2 SD's from the mean. They are no longer near the middle, but shifted. The more riders who dope the more the stats change. Thus the relative measures change.

We've got all of that. It's called history. Now what do you think the statistical odds of one team managing to turn Porte, Wiggins and Froome all into potential GT winners, at a minimum podium placers, given that historically they were nowhere near the narrow end of the bell curve. Froome in particular was to the left of the mean in the pro peloton. At the far left. The statistical odds of all three shifting their position is I dare say 1 in less than several billion. The odds of Sky just randomly happening onto this by chance and clean pursuits? Impossible. Numbers don't lie. Add in the domestiques who are better than they have ever been and better than other teams A squads (note they are split between two races) and that probability goes into the 1 to tens of billions! It just does not happen clean. Ever. Impossible. You'd have to literally buy every big name and stick them on a team and only then would it be slightly achievable clean. Note Sky's best buy was EBH. The rest are just meh riders in a very talented and deep pool of human and genetic excellence. Yeah, beacon of clean cycling is Sky 2013!

If EBH and Lofqvist were winning, yeah I'd buy that. It's within the realm of possible. But dominating? Like this? Not a chance. Lofqvist had to leave the team! Worse, the bell curve for the peloton does not appear to have shifted at all. It's just team Sky relative to the rest. Santambrogio is also a big tell. Crap at BMC, joins a Conti team and is gunning his old team leader Evans. Doping to no restraint. Talansky? Yeah JV, that boy is clean! Look at where David Millar was comparative to his team mate. 4 minutes back in the chrono, his bread and butter!

The tone here is right. Sky can win a lot this year. Tiernan Locke for MSR. EBH for Roubaix. Thomas for one of the Ardennes Classics. Maybe even Froome or Porte for one. The way Porte is going now, he will smash Cadel Evans this year. If he is Sky's boy for the Vuelta GC, put him down as a potential WC winner. Cancellara, Gilbert, Boonen, Cavendish, Rodriguez, Sagan and Martin better pack their dope bags this classics campaign. They are going to need it and then some.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

It's sort of like Hair Club for Men but for bone-idle wankers.

"Hi, I'm Brad. I used to be a bone-idle wanker and a drunk to boot. After joining the Bradley Wiggins Club for Bone-Idle Wankers I now have the energy to play sports, dress in a style that is forty years out of date, and carry on affairs with beautiful women. I owe it all the to club. I am not only a client of the Bradley Wiggins Club for Bone-Idle Wankers, I'm the president."

Nice! That was funny...

 

[The Hitch]

Please tell what constitutes proof - you do realize this is an internet forum? You can take off the wig and gown, m'lord.

I'm expecting the answer to be along these lines.

In answere to you're question I say that he HAS TO FAIL A TEST, just once. The we will have evidence of doping. You can catch Stalone standing at an airport holding 100 doeses of roids but can you say he doped?

No.

You have to test him, they could be for his mum.

He has to fail a test, just like Jan and Rasmousenn did.

 

[Escarabajo]

Stupid liquigas. If only they had been paying agnoli and co 600 000 each those same riders would have been able to match sky in the mountains.

LOL. This thread is comedy gold!

 

[MatParker117]

And then drop off back to their old level or below, the minute they leave Sky.

If your training with the best coaches/sports scientists, working with the best support staff, have cheap access to the most successful Olympic cycling program and facilities in the last decade and on top of that your DS's are fantastic it would take a miracle for a rider not to show at least some improvement. If you leave that regime your going to show some drop off from the level you were at under that regime.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'm expecting the answer to be along these lines.

The Sky fans do need a WonderLance (wonderwiggo, fabulousfroome, partyporte) types to at least attempt rival the awsomeness of Wonderlance.