Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Dear Wiggo]

Given the mitochondria are female-gene (?) based, it's the Mum who gives the rider his (or her) initial mitochondrial characteristics.

It would certainly help if your Dad was gifted, but there's more to it than that.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

nvm, you really aren't getting it

HE is not alone Del.

 

[pmcg76]

nvm, you really aren't getting it

I don't think you seem to get things either.

You are saying that having a cycling family member is somehow beneficial to becoming a pro.

I am calling BS on that statement, citing an example of a pro rider who came through as a pro at the exact same time as Roche/Martin and indeed Froom but had no family cycling history or culture.

I also cited Robbie Hunter as an example of a rider who came from South Africa but made it as a pro in his first season winning a Vuelta stage. If you have the talent it will show regardless of where you come from.

 

[del1962]

are you serious? You have 1 example of a cyclist who came from a cycling family. And 1 example of a cyclist who didnt.

And you conclude from this grand sample of 2, that all cyclists who come from a cycling family must show talent from the start and all those who don't must be late peakers?

Mollema started cycling as late as Froome if not later. Yet he showed talent almost from the start. How do you explain that?

Are you realistically saying that someone who grew up in Kenya had same opportunites from an early age as someone who grew up in Holland

 

[The Hitch]

nvm, you really aren't getting it

He replied directly to your comment which was

Well Froome's talent has shown it just took longer than soemone who grew up with an uncle who was a grand tour winner

This is pretty simple stuff here.

You said that Froome shows it takes longer for people without a cycling family to peak, than those without (and btw, you offered no explanation why this would be the case)

Here is the comment again

Well Froome's talent has shown it just took longer than soemone who grew up with an uncle who was a grand tour winner

And he DIRECTLY addressed your point

Using your argument, shouldn't Nico Roche have shown more potential as a first year pro than Martin considering his Dad was a GT winner as opposed to having an uncle as a GT winner!!!


Ironically the guy I am talking about is of the Roche/Martin age group so really he should have had no right to make it as a pro compared to those guys as he obviously didn't have their background.

So what isnt he getting. Is there something you imagnied you wrote that wasn't actually posted?

 

[BYOP88]

are you serious? You have 1 example of a cyclist who came from a cycling family. And 1 example of a cyclist who didnt.

And you conclude from this grand sample of 2, that all cyclists who come from a cycling family must show talent from the start and all those who don't must be late peakers?

Mollema started cycling as late as Froome if not later. Yet he showed talent almost from the start. How do you explain that?

You guys haven't been listening to the facts that have been presented by the Froome fan club, I shall break it down into simple terms. Mollema/Martin/Roche etc all grew up in Europe. In Europe they have bikes, roads, mountains etc, so it's easy for those guys to show their 'talent' right from the start. Froome comes from Africa, there they don't have bikes, roads, mountains etc so it takes alot lot lot longer for Froome and other Africans to show their 'talent'. Ok everyone up to date at the right speed and on the correct page?

 

[pmcg76]

You guys haven't been listening to the facts that have been presented by the Froome fan club, I shall break it down into simple terms. Mollema/Martin/Roche etc all grew up in Europe. In Europe they have bikes, roads, mountains etc, so it's easy for those guys to show their 'talent' right from the start. Froome comes from Africa, there they don't have bikes, roads, mountains etc so it takes alot lot lot longer for Froome and other Africans to show their 'talent'. Ok everyone up to date at the right speed and on the correct page?

And Robbie Hunter or Leonardo Sierra or Raul Alcala????

 

[del1962]

You guys haven't been listening to the facts that have been presented by the Froome fan club, I shall break it down into simple terms. Mollema/Martin/Roche etc all grew up in Europe. In Europe they have bikes, roads, mountains etc, so it's easy for those guys to show their 'talent' right from the start. Froome comes from Africa, there they don't have bikes, roads, mountains etc so it takes alot lot lot longer for Froome and other Africans to show their 'talent'. Ok everyone up to date at the right speed and on the correct page?

I know you are being faesetious, but growing up in Kenya will give you less opportunities than Europe for pro cycling, this should be self evident to anyone with functioning brain cells

 

[BYOP88]

And Robbie Hunter or Leonardo Sierra or Raul Alcala????

Check their passports, they're not Africans really, they just wanted to hide their talents from the rest of the peloton and cycling fans. That's why Hunter won a Vuelta stage in his first year, the Europeans all thought 'ah African rider, he wont win, lets chill out for a bit'.

 

[maltiv]

To me, it speaks volumes how many "wait, who?!" moments that these people had in the 2011 Vuelta during Chris Froome's rise to prominence. Go back and check the Vuelta race threads, they're all still there. It was almost universal - raised eyebrows all-round as he beats Cancellara in the ITT. He wasn't even bad - people remember Kenny Van Hummel's Tour debut, for sure. Froome was merely anonymous, the kind of rider that our assembly of cycling fanatics might have looked blankly at each other about his capabilities when handed a Vuelta '11 startsheet. They'd probably all know that he was the Kenyan guy who'd taken British nationality, and remember that he'd ridden for Barloworld before joining Sky. But other than that, little else. Look how hard mastersracer had to dig to find a glimmer of a good performance in his Tour debut.

He lead Sky in Romandie and Tour de Suisse that year, and rode reasonably well too. So I think most people would have noticed him...I expected him to be a strong mountain domestique, at least. Obviously not to the extent he was...

I remember after a few days in the vuelta, before the first MTF, the Norwegian commentator named Mads Kaggestad (former pro) said that Froome could be top 10 in the GC. I remember thinking he was being utterly ridiculous, but he ended up being more than right. He didn't seem surprised at all when Froome was ripping up the mountains. Perhaps he had inside information though, I don't know.

 

[BYOP88]

I know you are being faesetious, but growing up in Kenya will give you less opportunities than Europe for pro cycling, this should be self evident to anyone with functioning brain cells

Yes it's got to be tough being a (rich) white kid in Kenya.

 

[del1962]

Yes it's got to be tough being a (rich) white kid in Kenya.

even if your rich and white, you are still not going to get much competetive road cycling to test yourself in kenya

 

[pmcg76]

I know you are being faesetious, but growing up in Kenya will give you less opportunities than Europe for pro cycling, this should be self evident to anyone with functioning brain cells

Froome and his family moved to South Africa when he was 14 and he was already cycling by then. How many eventual pro's take up the sport later than that? Lots.

According to Robbie Hunter, the cycling scene in South Africa is pretty big, they had an international race in the 90's called the Rapport Tour and lots of amateur/leisure cyclists. Sounds like there was a bigger scene in South Africa than where I come from.

Again, Robbie Hunter who is of course South African won a Vuelta stage in his first year as a pro. Care to address this??

 

[del1962]

And Robbie Hunter or Leonardo Sierra or Raul Alcala????

robbie hunter, sprinter, not the same as a GC contender, my impression with sprinters is that you hit top form younger

 

[Dear Wiggo]

even if your rich and white, you are still not going to get much competetive road cycling to test yourself in kenya

And yet rather than race and test themselves, Sky can go to Tenerife and train for weeks at a time, harder than they race, then come out and smash all and sundry.

 

[pmcg76]

robbie hunter, sprinter, not the same as a GC contender, my impression with sprinters is that you hit top form younger

So, cyclists from Africa are disadvantaged compared to Europeans but not if they are sprinters, got it

Mate, you are seriously talking out of your *** now. You need to stop.

 

[BYOP88]

even if your rich and white, you are still not going to get much competetive road cycling to test yourself in kenya

When you first start cycling, isn't it you versus yourself? I mean the first time you ride a 50km course your time could be good it could be bad. The next time you ride that course you try and beat your last time and so on and so on. So even if you raced others and the other kids were rubbish at cycling and you dropped them quickly, you still want to get to the top of the mountain/end of the race quicker than you did last time.

 

[Ripper]

Interesting that Evans' 2011 performances were on a par with Wiggo's last year in terms of results.

He won TA and Romandie, along with bagging 2nd spot in the Dauphine before winning the Tour.

Wiggo won PN, Romandie and the Dauphine before his Tour victory.

Both won the Tour, with Evans having to beat Berto and Andy S to achieve this, which some might consider a better performance than Wiggo's.

Keeping it honest, bert had just done the Giro and Andy must always be second on the road (it's his destiny!)

Sky is team 95%, which equals a win

 

[Ripper]

Keeping it honest, bert had just done the Giro and Andy must always be second on the road (it's his destiny!)

Sky is team 95%, which equals a win

By the by ... Evans is not targeting Wiggo, but pointing out the whole team. A slight difference ...

 

[The Hitch]

So, cyclists from Africa are disadvantaged compared to Europeans but not if they are sprinters, got it

.

Also if their star sign is a leo or if the 3rd letter of their middle name is a z.

On the other hand, if their eye colour is green they get disadvantaged even more and wont peak till they are 35.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Keeping it honest, bert had just done the Giro and Andy must always be second on the road (it's his destiny!)

Fair points! Not sure Andy will be coming second in anything much now, though.

 

[ferryman]

Are you realistically saying that someone who grew up in Kenya had same opportunites from an early age as someone who grew up in Holland

Remind me, was this your theory that you are defending or have you just jumped on the latest defence of Froome by Master racer and you feel duty bound to keep up the good work by baiting it in his absence? The argument is over, accept it, it has been ripped apart by some of the most respected guys (and girl, sorry LS) on here. Move on to your next excuse/explanation of the rise of Froome and Sky from the Pheonix that was 2010.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

By the by ... Evans is not targeting Wiggo, but pointing out the whole team. A slight difference ...

Also a fair point, but bringing about recognition of team doping at Sky may be a phyrric victory for him, as Wiggo is part of Sky, and thus making a "charge" stick to Sky still leaves Evans with a lot of explaining to do.

In the crazy world of pro cycling, it may be counted as a "good thing" / moral victory to be competitive as a lone-doper against a team of dopers. Who knows how those boys think!

 

[mastersracer]

Remind me, was this your theory that you are defending or have you just jumped on the latest defence of Froome by Master racer and you feel duty bound to keep up the good work by baiting it in his absence? The argument is over, accept it, it has been ripped apart by some of the most respected guys (and girl, sorry LS) on here. Move on to your next excuse/explanation of the rise of Froome and Sky from the Pheonix that was 2010.

How is it over? LS brought up the question of progression, not potential. Progression and potental are two separate issues. Indeed, I believe LS acknowledges that Froome showed potential in 2008 and may also agree that Froome's 2007 win of stage 5 at Giro delle Regioni (over riders that would go on to do well in GTs) was also indicative of potential.

There are plausible accounts on both sides of this discussion regarding Froome's progression. Apparently, many here believe his progression cannot be explained except by doping. This would be in some tension with the notion that he had potential, but that's beside the point.

Alternatively, one could document Julich's comments about Froome - about the fact that Julich first thought their testing equipment was out of calibration because Froome's #s were so high, of how Julich realized Froome didn't know how to train, in fact overtrained, and also didn't know how to prepare for a race or even race with much tactical sense. Again, this is entirely consistent with his lack of background, his developing outside the typical system a top young junior would in Europe, his racing for a small team with limited budget and capacity to develop riders, etc. I think it is an entirely plausible scenario.

The real problem is this: there are no laws of rider development. There are simply trends. The variance depends on the variance of the developmental paths riders take. Since the sport was so long entrenched in Europe, these paths were quite narrow until recently. It is absurd to apply the progression schedule of a European pro to Froome - in any case, trends always have outliers.

 

[Clausfarre]

A slightly altered Terminator quote about Skynet seems very fitting here:

Robert: "Team Sky? The virus has infected Team Sky?"

John Connor: "Team Sky IS the virus! It's the reason everything is falling apart!"

I just hope we aren't seeing a renewed ped arms race. Sigh.