Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Benotti69]

"Its all but impossible to prove that your clean but If you are then you have nothing to fear from accusations and certainly no reason to be angry that, understandably, peeps might be suspicious "

I totally disagree. I think if you work your hardest, win the biggest race in the world and people are whispering (pretty loudly) despite a lack of:

Positive tests or
Recorded conversations about doping or
Names found in files in labs or
witness statements by team mates/doctors etc or
anything of any substance at all...

You'd be pretty angry. I know I would. He rants- he's guilty. He keeps quiet- ah, a sign that he's guilty.

I'm not saying I know that he's clean. I'm just saying tha tthere is a large % of people on here who make up their minds and then interpret the evidence to fit their argument, no matter what it is.

Why not be transparent?

Why not explain the 2 doctors with suspicions about them?

why not show the public what you showed ASO?

They wont do that, that would be only possible if they won it clean.

 

[JimmyFingers]

You were doing so well too. Just can't help yourself can you.

I meant track cycling btw, which is why he was so happy to break the Omerta in the past

 

[Darryl Webster]

Bradley Wiggins winning a Lifetime Achievement Award at the 2012 GQ Men of the Year Awards last nigh with Liam Gallagher

 

[sartoris]

After watching his performance on Cuitu Negru, I knew Cataldo was on a swimming coach programme too.


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cataldo-leaving-omega-pharma-quickstep-for-sky

 

[JimmyFingers]

Bradley Wiggins winning a Lifetime Achievement Award at the 2012 GQ Men of the Year Awards last nigh with Liam Gallagher

See I would like to know why this is relevant here in the clinic. It seems much of the discussion is about character assassination rather than objective debate. Hence the lengthy debate over him smoking a cigarette, or the frequency of calling him names. Because you don't like him doesn't mean he's doping, something this place is quick to forget. I see you joined the 'well he's probably doping but at least he's exciting to watch' brigade re Contador, while bemoaning how boring Sky's was.

Pictures of him at an award ceremony doesn't make him a doper. It does however mean he has a very fine tailor.

 

[lemoogle]

If someone acts like a nice guy, then there's no real way to tell that they wouldn't dope or do bad stuff anyway, since plenty of good guys do.

But if someone just acts like a massive a****** then it's just a fact that they're not an angel off camera, ( and no I m not saying every ******* dopes , just that I don't really see how they'd feel bad about that specifically...)

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

But if someone just acts like a massive a****** then it's just a fact that they're not an angel off camera

What absolute garbage.

 

[JimmyFingers]

If someone acts like a nice guy, then there's no real way to tell that they wouldn't dope or do bad stuff anyway, since plenty of good guys do.

But if someone just acts like a massive a****** then it's just a fact that they're not an angel off camera, ( and no I m not saying every ******* dopes , just that I don't really see how they'd feel bad about that specifically...)

How old are you because this isn't reasoned argument, just emotive nonsense. Who are you to judge his character? Have you met him? Have you seen him interact with his friends and his family? You may not like what someone says in a press conference, or the way he rides, or the length of his sideburns, or the fact there's a picture of him with Liam Gallagher, but a) it doesn't make him a **** and b) it doesn't make him a doper

This would be called a smear campaign: character assassination to make people think he is capable of the immoral acts you think he is guilty of. As I have said debate must be more objective here or else you are just devaluing your core point.

 

[lemoogle]

How old are you because this isn't reasoned argument, just emotive nonsense. Who are you to judge his character? Have you met him? Have you seen him interact with his friends and his family? You may not like what someone says in a press conference, or the way he rides, or the length of his sideburns, or the fact there's a picture of him with Liam Gallagher, but a) it doesn't make him a **** and b) it doesn't make him a doper

This would be called a smear campaign: character assassination to make people think he is capable of the immoral acts you think he is guilty of. As I have said debate must be more objective here or else you are just devaluing your core point.

People judge people based on how they act on screen, it's not a new thing. I'm sure there are cases where guys that act like arrogant pr*** on tv are actually super nice guys, but I don't base my opinions on the 0.1%
I don't really see how age is relevant and I'm less "emotive" than you perhaps are when you treat anything british as morally infallible.

 

[Krebs cycle]

Regarding Wiggins character, I reckon he comes across as a bit of a tool in the media, but he also seems to come across as a bit of a pommie prankster/hooligan type with a sense of humour. One thing I do know however is that Kate Bates wrote an article praising Wiggins character, work ethic and professionalism behind the scenes and I know Kate Bates personally and I trust her opinion the matter.

http://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/kate-bates/blog/126450/why-wiggins-is-a-sporting-hero

The problem of course for so many people here is that they MUST compare to Lance Armstrong and anything that remotely resembles anything that Armstrong was known for, thus becomes circumstantial "evidence" of doping.

So lets play with that line of clinic crackpot logic.....

Armstrong had determination and focus, and Armstrong was a doper.
Therefore, any elite athlete who has determination and focus is a doper.
Therefore, any elite athlete who is clean must not display determination or focus, lest they be labelled a doper by the clinic.

yes yes I realize that we all have a right to be cynical of winning performances in pro cycling based on history. But I am not ignoring the evidence from the combination of blood profiles (which have changed since 2008) and the corresponding drop in times up major climbs. Pro cycling is NOT clean but something is happening for the better. Throwing baseless accusations around doesn't serve any purpose. There are some people who believe wiggins and froome are doping and truly want cycling to be a clean sport. But there are others that don't care about that, they're just crying foul because their hero who is most likely an italian or a spaniard, didn't win.

 

[Darryl Webster]

See I would like to know why this is relevant here in the clinic. It seems much of the discussion is about character assassination rather than objective debate. Hence the lengthy debate over him smoking a cigarette, or the frequency of calling him names. Because you don't like him doesn't mean he's doping, something this place is quick to forget. I see you joined the 'well he's probably doping but at least he's exciting to watch' brigade re Contador, while bemoaning how boring Sky's was.

Pictures of him at an award ceremony doesn't make him a doper. It does however mean he has a very fine tailor.

Oh get of your high horse Jimmy , the caption with the picture isn't mine it's caption that was released with the picture . I found it quite amusing and happen to quite like Liam Gallagher,s attitude and as it happens quite a bit of Wiggo,s though having met him did find him an arrogant git .I couldn't give a toss about him having smoke either.
My suspicions re Sky in the tdf extend beyond Wiggo and there's plenty of reasons for em..though you clearly think otherwise.
As for Contador , he may or may not be doping but he most certainly ain't doing his racing with ease, unlike Wiggo and the sky boys he actually looks like he,s giving his all and was very clearly cream crackered and quite emotional at the end of today's stage as well you might expect.
Your postings on the subject of sky lack any objectivity and ignore totally the rational behind the suspicion . You even use the utterly bogus " Brit culture " angle.
If you don't like what the clinic is about, speculation, some evidence based , some idle nonsense, then why bother posting here?. If the doubters are wrong then sky need worry not and I'm sure they don't need your partisan defending to feel any more secure.
If the doubters are right then it's likely be quite some time before we ever, if ever find out .
Put ya bloody union jack away and take a chill pil,

 

[the big ring]

I will happily admit that Sky could be doping and I'm not a Sky fanboy.

Its not a problem because I'm focusing on the main key indicator which is performance.
...
Your problem is that you are emotionally bonded to the belief that Wiggins is doping. To me he is a faceless man, he could be anyone or he could be no-one. I'm looking at this debate as if he is a random barcode number and nothing more.

I'm not arguing that Wiggins is clean. How many times do I have to repeat this? I am arguing that his performances over the past 7yrs are all explainable in terms of known human physiology and do not strongly indicate doping. .

Regarding Wiggins character,.

Strangely enough, I cannot find the post where (yet again) you were adamant you didn't support Wiggins (thank god you stopped playing the Aussie vs Brit card, that was getting old fast) and then went on to say you actually thought he was a bit of a d^%&#bag. There were a few edited posts around that part of the thread, so maybe you removed that bit, but I definitely read it.

After insisting you are a scientist looking at hard evidence only, doing research and careful analysis of said evidence, in posts like climber-gate and timetrial-gate, you volunteer, out of the blue, an opinion piece from another professional rider as evidence that Wiggins does not dope er.. I mean ... works hard.

Your cherry picking of Armstrong / Wiggins comparison is laughable. I'm not even going to dignify that with a response.

Suffice to say Wiggins' support of the 71 VO2 max Lance Armstrong doper is damning enough without having to do any comparisons between them at all.

I am once again calling you out. You are a fan, no question.

http://www.cyclesportmag.com/features/tim-kerrison-the-man-behind-bradley-wiggins’-tour/

Prior to joining Sky in early 2010, Kerrison worked for British Swimming from late 2004 to 2008, and, before that, with the Australian sprint swimming team, including Jodie Henry, a triple gold medallist at the Athens Olympics. Before that he worked with rowers; and he was previously a rower himself. He does point out that he “was one of those who didn’t achieve my goals as an athlete, for whatever reason.”

I've been working with world class lightweight rowers for several years and sometimes the men will lose up to 3kgs in one month leading into competition and not lose any power.

Do you know Tim Kerrison?

 

[JimmyFingers]

People judge people based on how they act on screen, it's not a new thing. I'm sure there are cases where guys that act like arrogant pr*** on tv are actually super nice guys, but I don't base my opinions on the 0.1%
I don't really see how age is relevant and I'm less "emotive" than you perhaps are when you treat anything british as morally infallible.

I think age is relevant because your points are simplistic at best, based on emotion rather than any objective analysis.

And show where I treat anything British as 'morally infalliable'. It seems the last recourse in this place is to have a dig at my nationality to dismiss my arguments. Lazy thinking

 

[JimmyFingers]

Oh get of your high horse Jimmy , the caption with the picture isn't mine it's caption that was released with the picture . I found it quite amusing and happen to quite like Liam Gallagher,s attitude and as it happens quite a bit of Wiggo,s though having met him did find him an arrogant git .I couldn't give a toss about him having smoke either.
My suspicions re Sky in the tdf extend beyond Wiggo and there's plenty of reasons for em..though you clearly think otherwise.
As for Contador , he may or may not be doping but he most certainly ain't doing his racing with ease, unlike Wiggo and the sky boys he actually looks like he,s giving his all and was very clearly cream crackered and quite emotional at the end of today's stage as well you might expect.
Your postings on the subject of sky lack any objectivity and ignore totally the rational behind the suspicion . You even use the utterly bogus " Brit culture " angle.
If you don't like what the clinic is about, speculation, some evidence based , some idle nonsense, then why bother posting here?. If the doubters are wrong then sky need worry not and I'm sure they don't need your partisan defending to feel any more secure.
If the doubters are right then it's likely be quite some time before we ever, if ever find out .
Put ya bloody union jack away and take a chill pil,

See again rather than addrssing the points I raise it seems to easiest way to duck them is play the 'he's a British fanboy' card. I am British but as I have said elsewhere I am not convinced of these athletes innocence, but I am less convinced by their guilt. The one thing that compells me to post here is to fight against hypocrisy and double-standards which is endemic on these boards. I also dislike how posters pick riders to accuse and pursue on personality, which your picture of BW demonstrates. To post it here is provocative, it adds fuel to the fire of people that want to tear him down both as an athlete and a person and has no relevance here at all, and I rightly called you on it.

And again you praise Contador while criticising Sky, which again reeks of double-standards. I think a lot of what I read about Sky here boils down to the fact people don't like the team, don't like the sponsor, the sponsor's owner, its top rider and its tactics so they look to tear the whole lot down.

 

[Benotti69]

See again rather than addrssing the points I raise it seems to easiest way to duck them is play the 'he's a British fanboy' card. I am British but as I have said elsewhere I am not convinced of these athletes innocence, but I am less convinced by their guilt. The one thing that compells me to post here is to fight against hypocrisy and double-standards which is endemic on these boards. I also dislike how posters pick riders to accuse and pursue on personality, which your picture of BW demonstrates. To post it here is provocative, it adds fuel to the fire of people that want to tear him down both as an athlete and a person and has no relevance here at all, and I rightly called you on it.

And again you praise Contador while criticising Sky, which again reeks of double-standards. I think a lot of what I read about Sky here boils down to the fact people don't like the team, don't like the sponsor, the sponsor's owner, its top rider and its tactics so they look to tear the whole lot down.

Most of us have been waiting to hear why Sky have hired 2 Doctors for this year with a dodgy history in the sport of cycling.

They have not release any information after Brailsford stated that they would investigate these allegations. I am calling him a liar He knew the story about Leinders and Bartcalucci before he hired them. It was a big news in cycling about Rabo and its doping and bartaclucci was originally charged but later dropped for his involvement in doping in Italy.

So dont come in here and accuse clinicians of not addressing points when the team that dominated the TdF wont address the number 1 issue of hiring doctors with doping pasts.

Till that has been addressed anyone who thinks Sky are clean lives on another planet entirely.

 

[pmcg76]

See again rather than addrssing the points I raise it seems to easiest way to duck them is play the 'he's a British fanboy' card. I am British but as I have said elsewhere I am not convinced of these athletes innocence, but I am less convinced by their guilt. The one thing that compells me to post here is to fight against hypocrisy and double-standards which is endemic on these boards. I also dislike how posters pick riders to accuse and pursue on personality, which your picture of BW demonstrates. To post it here is provocative, it adds fuel to the fire of people that want to tear him down both as an athlete and a person and has no relevance here at all, and I rightly called you on it.

And again you praise Contador while criticising Sky, which again reeks of double-standards. I think a lot of what I read about Sky here boils down to the fact people don't like the team, don't like the sponsor, the sponsor's owner, its top rider and its tactics so they look to tear the whole lot down.

No you are way of base on this, guys like Contador, Valverde and many others have had plenty of muck thrown their way on this forum for years and that was before either Contador or Valverde were suspended.

This year SKY became more dominant than the likes of Contador/Valverde etc so are now operating in the same ball-park. When you suddenly arrive at this level from nowhere, of course you will attract all the attention. All that is really happening is that SKY are now receiving the same level of abuse as others have received in the past as they are performing at the big boy level.

This is doubly compounded by the fact that SKY have actively promoted themselves as anti-doping and transparent but operate on the same level as guys like Contador/Valverde. Whilst those guys might deny doping, they or their teams are not exactly renowned for being staunchly anti-doping.

Nobody is letting Contador off the hook, considering a lot of people here believe ALL the top riders dope, they just have more time for Contador because of his style and the fact that he hasnt flip-flopped around like Wiggins on any anti-doping agenda.

Its simple really. If SKY want to talk the talk, they have to walk the walk.

 

[richtea]

as for contador , he may or may not be doping but he most certainly ain't doing his racing with ease, unlike wiggo and the sky boys he actually looks like he,s giving his all and was very clearly cream crackered and quite emotional at the end of today's stage as well you might expect.

lmfao.....

 

[Robert21]

Regarding Wiggins...The problem of course for so many people here is that they MUST compare to Lance Armstrong and anything that remotely resembles anything that Armstrong was known for, thus becomes circumstantial "evidence" of doping.

So lets play with that line of clinic crackpot logic.....

Armstrong had determination and focus, and Armstrong was a doper.
Therefore, any elite athlete who has determination and focus is a doper.
Therefore, any elite athlete who is clean must not display determination or focus, lest they be labelled a doper by the clinic.

What you say is a perversion of logic itself. The following would make much more sense:

Armstrong provided many explanations for his performances that did not stand up to scrutiny (lost weight, trained harder, higher cadence, innovative training programme and so on) and Armstrong was a doper.

Any elite athlete who provides explanations for their performances that do not stand up to scrutiny may be a doper.

Therefore, any elite athlete who is clean must not provides explanations for their performances that do not stand up to scrutiny, lest they be labelled a doper by the clinic.

Or:

Armstrong has close links with a doctor associated with doping and Armstrong was a doper.

Any elite athlete who has close links with a doctor associated with doping may be a doper.

Therefore, no elite athlete must have any close links with a doctor associated with doping, lest they be labelled a doper by the clinic.

Etc.

 

[luckyboy]

Most of us have been waiting to hear why Sky have hired 2 Doctors for this year with a dodgy history in the sport of cycling.

They have not release any information after Brailsford stated that they would investigate these allegations. I am calling him a liar He knew the story about Leinders and Bartcalucci before he hired them. It was a big news in cycling about Rabo and its doping and bartaclucci was originally charged but later dropped for his involvement in doping in Italy.

Again, compare this with JV who came in here to talk about one of his own doctors. Contrast between the two 'clean teams' is ridiculous.

 

[the big ring]

What you say is a perversion of logic itself. The following would make much more sense:

Or:

Etc.

Whatevs dude. I've got over 10yrs experience working at the AIS and NSWIS with elite athletes and coaches as a sport scientist -

I'm not even defending Sky. I couldn't care less about Sky or Wiggins.

I am defending basic common sense, truth and reason.

You'd think someone with a PhD would do better with logical assertions yeah? And not cherry pick something as ridiculous as he did and claim it as our "proof" of doping.

Alas, it's a common ploy.

 

[Markyboyzx6r]

As for Contador , he may or may not be doping but he most certainly ain't doing his racing with ease, unlike Wiggo and the sky boys he actually looks like he,s giving his all and was very clearly cream crackered and quite emotional at the end of today's stage as well you might expect.

Oh for pity's sake, Darryl...

 

[Mellow Velo]

Originally Posted by Darryl Webster View Post
As for Contador , he may or may not be doping but he most certainly ain't doing his racing with ease, unlike Wiggo and the sky boys he actually looks like he,s giving his all and was very clearly cream crackered and quite emotional at the end of today's stage as well you might expect.

Oh for pity's sake, Darryl...

Well, his observation about Contador, at least, is accurate.
He left it all on the road yesterday and was a km shy of losing to
Valverde, Henao and Verdugo.

 

[Pulpstar]

People judge people based on how they act on screen, it's not a new thing. I'm sure there are cases where guys that act like arrogant pr*** on tv are actually super nice guys, but I don't base my opinions on the 0.1%
I don't really see how age is relevant and I'm less "emotive" than you perhaps are when you treat anything british as morally infallible.

Not cycling related, but I've met Tony G (A poker player) and irl he is a very nice guy. He just has a very effective table image of being a jerk and a bully, that and his supreme poker skills win him alot of cash.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

No you are way of base on this, guys like Contador, Valverde and many others have had plenty of muck thrown their way on this forum for years and that was before either Contador or Valverde were suspended.

This year SKY became more dominant than the likes of Contador/Valverde etc so are now operating in the same ball-park. When you suddenly arrive at this level from nowhere, of course you will attract all the attention. All that is really happening is that SKY are now receiving the same level of abuse as others have received in the past as they are performing at the big boy level.

This is doubly compounded by the fact that SKY have actively promoted themselves as anti-doping and transparent but operate on the same level as guys like Contador/Valverde. Whilst those guys might deny doping, they or their teams are not exactly renowned for being staunchly anti-doping.

Nobody is letting Contador off the hook, considering a lot of people here believe ALL the top riders dope, they just have more time for Contador because of his style and the fact that he hasnt flip-flopped around like Wiggins on any anti-doping agenda.

Its simple really. If SKY want to talk the talk, they have to walk the walk.

I agree except i don't have much time for velasco.

 

[badboygolf16v]

Most of us have been waiting to hear why Sky have hired 2 Doctors for this year with a dodgy history in the sport of cycling.

Haven't had your invite to the seminar yet then?