Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[JimmyFingers]

That's nonsense. They ride slower because the case is that they are doping as effectively as US Postal, not they are doping as much as. And taking as a base the assumption that they are doping, they ride slower because they are doping less than USPS. It doesn't mean they're not doping, or they don't have as much of an advantage over other teams.

The biopassport and other things have meant that while doping is still rife, you can't get away with huge quantities. The days of 60% hct are done. Any money the CERA Emanuele Sella was using in 2008 wouldn't have turned him into more than guy finishing 5th-10th on mountain stages in 1998.

The quantity of dope that would have turned you into mediocre pack fodder in the mid-90s could turn you into an unstoppable behemoth today.

Cue accusations they are on some sort of new designer PED that makes them go exactly the right speed to be 1% faster than everyone else, all funded by Murdoch's money.

As you say if the premise is that they are doped, they are doing it in a very different way to USPS. That doesn't work here, where Sky are UKPS and Wiggins is Lance reborn. I look forward to the stories of him bullying and intimidating...well everyone in the sport

 

[thehog]

All points I have tried to make in the thread. They'll be ignored, or derided, or dismissed (see above) The trick in this place to is to make your point as cohesively as possible and then get out, and don't get bogged down arguing with people that will tell you black is blue

Jimmy I’m with you. Sky are clean. Cycling has certainly turned the corner since those doping days of Lance Armstrong and Contador in 2009, 2010. The sport has changed. Dramatically. No longer do you have one team on the front dominating the entire race. It’s a lot more humane these days. Riders from all teams can attack and make their play. The speeds are not so fast that the guy coming 3rd can't atatck. It’s got a lot better. Much better. No longer are cyclists riding so fast they literally have to put their brakes on going around corners uphill or ride with one hand on the handlebar was gesticulating at the yellow jersey to hurry up whilst climbing a 8% gradient. Don’t see that. Cycling has got so much cleaner since the dark era of 18 month ago.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Jimmy I’m with you. Sky are clean. Cycling has certainly turned the corner since those doping days of Lance Armstrong and Contador in 2009, 2010. The sport has changed. Dramatically. No longer do you have one team on the front dominating the entire race. It’s a lot more humane these days. Riders from all teams can attack and make their play. The speeds are not so fast that the guy coming 3rd can't atatck. It’s got a lot better. Much better. No longer are cyclists riding so fast they literally have to put their brakes on going around corners uphill or ride with one hand on the handlebar was gesticulating at the yellow jersey to hurry up whilst climbing a 8% gradient. Don’t see that. Cycling has got so much cleaner since the dark era of 18 month ago.

Oh I am pleased

 

[hrotha]

And I'm told there's not an anti-British element here in the clinic. This is truely pathetic. Well done, you've raised the bar on the chap who compared us to East Germany and the state-sponsored doping there, because we have so many CCTV cameras

The kind of thing blackcat posted will stop when the "we have a different culture here" thing stops. Until then, blackcat's post will keep being funny.

 

[Benotti69]

So here's two good reasons why Wiggins didn't excel on the road until 2009.

1 Lots of riders were taking lots of drugs, and Wiggins (possibly) wasn't.
2 Wiggins was a track rider who only concentrated on the odd prologue and time-trial - and he had some decent results in some of these. (See reason 1 for an explanation of why he wasn't winning them).

You'll notice that neither of these reasons speak to why he might have improved subsequent to that. I'm waiting to be convinced either way on that question.

Now, in return, can you comment on the USADA evidence, in which Michele Ferrarri was surreptitiously recorded in 2010 telling an Italian rider explicitly not to travel to Tenerife and train on the Teide because it was known and monitored by anti-doping authorities. In the same call he also said - in 2010 - you'd have to be crazy to take EPO. Specifically how does this evidence fit with the suggestions made in this thread that Wiggins started to train on Tenerife in 2011 because he was working with Ferrari and being at altitude would help beat the EPO test? So was Ferrari lying to his client in 2010 (if so, why?), or do you think his advice changed between 2010 and 2011 (if so why?), or do you think there is any other explanation that one could entertain?

I thought they all stopped doping in 2006 same as Mick Barry, Big George, Levi, CVdV, DZ and everyone!

 

[JimmyFingers]

The kind of thing blackcat posted will stop when the "we have a different culture here" thing stops. Until then, blackcat's post will keep being funny.

You can't expect to make xenophobic digs like that and the host of others I have read here and have Brits come on and think you're having a nice, objective debate.

The clinic should be about the truth, not about baiting and mocking, and belittling people. It certainly shouldn't be about social and cultural stereotypes made into a picture and received by you as 'funny'. You want your points to be taken seriously, your arguments to be considered and debated then you don't tolerate moronic stuff like that.

Bad teeth, seriously? That's funny? It was old at the start of last cenbtury, let alone this one. What nationality are you? Perhaps I can dig out some inaccurate and unfunny stereotypes and we'll get the clinic's sides splitting

 

[Libertine Seguros]

There's not an anti-British thing here.

There's an anti-smug-hypocrites thing, and an anti-turning-a-blind-eye-based-on-nationality thin (see many a post about Spain's attitude to the juice!!!).

Bewailing an anti-British sentiment is a self-fulfilling prophecy, because that kind of everyone's-against-us-plucky-Brits attitude is more likely to beget those sentiments, because we get fed up of hearing about how any suspicion of a British rider, or any time Cavendish loses, or falls over (which is pretty regularly), or says something stupid in an interview (which is even more regularly), is some conspiracy to stop Brits winning because they're that good. It's not that I don't like Britain, British people or some crap like that. Emma Pooley is one of my favourite riders. It's that I don't like Dave Brailsford, or Mark Cavendish, or Team Sky.

Just ask ACF. He's got into about 2500% less arguments about Australians and Evans being conspired against since Evans won the Tour, because no longer was he whining about how Evans got screwed, so no longer were people either getting exasperated by it and getting sucked into unnecessary arguments, or winding him up about it.

Relax. Your guys just happen to be the top guys right now. The top guys always get gunned for, especially if they happen to do it in a suspicious manner. It's not because they're British, it's because they're almost too good to be true.

Oh, and because they're unbearably smug.

 

[The Hitch]

lol these are your arguments? WHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH

obviously wiggins didn't go full in that itt unlike nibali.

1. [AUS] EVANS Cadel PRL 1h07'48" 80
2. [GER] KLÖDEN Andreas AST 25" 50
3. [KAZ] KASHECHKIN Andrey AST 30" 35
4. [GBR] WIGGINS Bradley COF 01'00" 25
5. [UKR] POPOVYCH Yaroslav DSC 01'02" 15
6. [ESP] CONTADOR VELASCO Alberto DSC 01'04" 10
7. [FRA] CHAVANEL Sylvain COF 01'24" 5
8. [USA] LEIPHEIMER Levi DSC 01'25" 3
9. [ESP] ASTARLOZA CHAURREAU Mikel EUS 01'28" 2
10. [DEN] RASMUSSEN Michael RAB 01'31"

this was his tour 2007 itt, in the rain for that matter! (wiggins sucks at steering)

still you are either a troll or an idiot and quite possibly both. I won't respond to your posts anymore as quite clealry you are full of it

How on earth do you not have Vino as 1 there? you flipping made a thread begging for footage of it and called it the "best time trial ever".

 

[The Hitch]

With Sky, you have to rely on the "They ride to their powermeters to avoid looking suspicious" argument to explain away the fact that they aren't riding very quickly. (Though obviously quicker than the opposition, but that's racing, I suppose.)

So everyone who dopes will go exactly as fast as eachother?

I dont know much about doping but as i understand it if weaker cyclists (like say one who finished the tdf at age 26 outside the top 130) dope they wont neccesarily reach the same speeds uphill as naturally gifted climbers like Pantani.

Also as I understand it, if someone dopes less (ie in 2012 when there is a blood passport) they wont neccesarily reach the same speeds as an equal athlete who doped more (like say in 2003).

But you claim that anyone, absolutely anyone, once they take that one epo injection, is capable of doing a 38 minute alpe.

Im not saying you are wrong, as i said i dont know much about doping but thats how i always understood it. Maybe some of the more knowledgable posters on here could tell us who they think is right on this.

 

[The Hitch]

That's nonsense. They ride slower because the case is that they are doping as effectively as US Postal, not they are doping as much as. And taking as a base the assumption that they are doping, they ride slower because they are doping less than USPS. It doesn't mean they're not doping, or they don't have as much of an advantage over other teams.

The biopassport and other things have meant that while doping is still rife, you can't get away with huge quantities. The days of 60% hct are done. Any money the CERA Emanuele Sella was using in 2008 wouldn't have turned him into more than guy finishing 5th-10th on mountain stages in 1998.

The quantity of dope that would have turned you into mediocre pack fodder in the mid-90s could turn you into an unstoppable behemoth today.

Side point, but Contador got basically the PDB reccord in 07 (pretty much same pace as Pantani just 500m more) and Verbier VAM record in 09. Ricco was pretty good v Contador in 08. So i think Cera was still pretty powerful,

 

[JimmyFingers]

There's not an anti-British thing here.

There's an anti-smug-hypocrites thing, and an anti-turning-a-blind-eye-based-on-nationality thin (see many a post about Spain's attitude to the juice!!!).

Bewailing an anti-British sentiment is a self-fulfilling prophecy, because that kind of everyone's-against-us-plucky-Brits attitude is more likely to beget those sentiments, because we get fed up of hearing about how any suspicion of a British rider, or any time Cavendish loses, or falls over (which is pretty regularly), or says something stupid in an interview (which is even more regularly), is some conspiracy to stop Brits winning because they're that good. It's not that I don't like Britain, British people or some crap like that. Emma Pooley is one of my favourite riders. It's that I don't like Dave Brailsford, or Mark Cavendish, or Team Sky.

Just ask ACF. He's got into about 2500% less arguments about Australians and Evans being conspired against since Evans won the Tour, because no longer was he whining about how Evans got screwed, so no longer were people either getting exasperated by it and getting sucked into unnecessary arguments, or winding him up about it.

Relax. Your guys just happen to be the top guys right now. The top guys always get gunned for, especially if they happen to do it in a suspicious manner. It's not because they're British, it's because they're almost too good to be true.

Oh, and because they're unbearably smug.

See this sort of post I like: informed, witty, engaged. Regurgitating a meme about the British having bad teeth I can't. I understand everything your saying, and I empathise with all, but don't defend that.

We're talking about athletes here, and sport. So cultural potshots are an irrelevance, a cheapshot, playground banter. I could ask an Aussie when he attacks 'we're a different culture', what do you know about culture? Or when a Frenchman complains about his country's lack of success tell him because you're always so quick to surrender. And you smell of garlic.

And don't get me started on the Germans, or the Yanks.

Cultural stereotypes are crass and pointless, and generalisations about a posters nationality doesn't excuse using them in response.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

See this sort of post I like: informed, witty, engaged. Regurgitating a meme about the British having bad teeth I can't. I understand everything your saying, and I empathise with all, but don't defend that.

We're talking about athletes here, and sport. So cultural potshots are an irrelevance, a cheapshot, playground banter. I could ask an Aussie when he attacks 'we're a different culture', what do you know about culture? Or when a Frenchman complains about his country's lack of success tell him because you're always so quick to surrender. And you smell of garlic.

And don't get me started on the Germans, or the Yanks.

Cultural stereotypes are crass and pointless, and generalisations about a posters nationality doesn't excuse using them in response.

Hi Jimmy,
While I don't like using nationality or cultural stereotypes with regards to doping, you're not really in a position to object about people discussing it when you make references to it in your second ever post here back in July on these very forums.

But you are tarring Wiggins with the same brush: exactly the sort of assumption I am criticising. It becomes a self-perpetuating delusion, you merely re-inforce your prejudice at every turn by the acts of others. Bradley Wiggins ISN'T Lance Armstrong. He career follows an entirely different trajectory and he has an entirely different cultural background. They are distinct people, separated not only nationality but by generation. To condemn Bradley for lance's actions is a crime in itself. 3 times gold medal winner, 7 times world Champion on the track. He came to the road late but applied that clear natural talent in the same way and has proved himself. Tearing that down through doping-by-assumption smacks of prejudice and an agenda based on motives I can guess at but won't voice.

REPEAT: Wiggins isn't Lance Armstrong. Sky aren't US Postal. The latter can **** off, I loathe them for what they have done to this sport. Don't continue that damage by attempting to destroy everything that comes after them.

If you do what hope is there for cycling.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Hi Jimmy,
While I don't like using nationality or cultural stereotypes with regards to doping, you're not really in a position to object about people discussing it when you make references to it in your second ever post here back in July on these very forums.

I honestly don't see your point. I state Lance and Wiggins have a different cultural background, to accentuate the difference between the two, i.e. they are two different people from different backgrounds, with different influences and goals.

Every mention of culture cannot be met with 'oh no, the Brits are playing the culture card, lets say something about their teeth in respinse!'. I was accused of that when I was actually talking about the different cultures in track and road cycling. The

I reapeat, that post was about Lance and Wigins being distinct, individual people, from different cultures (oops) with a different genetic mack-up. Both nurture and nature are distinct and I stand by that. I am disappointed that you see it another way. But then easier to take the low road, isn't it.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Personally I'm glad just to get past page 666, I don't know about anybody else...

 

[the sceptic]

I see Jimmy Fingers has always been a fan of the wall of text defence

 

[bianchigirl]

Whenever anyone starts banging on about Brits not doping because we have a different culture, I'm instantly reminded of mcquaids idiotic 'Anglo Saxons don't dope' comments - pretty certain Armstrong et al weren't part of Pat's euro mafia

I'm a Brit and the 'brad/sky are clean because of their nationality' argument drives me up the wall

 

[MatParker117]

There's not an anti-British thing here.

There's an anti-smug-hypocrites thing, and an anti-turning-a-blind-eye-based-on-nationality thin (see many a post about Spain's attitude to the juice!!!).

Bewailing an anti-British sentiment is a self-fulfilling prophecy, because that kind of everyone's-against-us-plucky-Brits attitude is more likely to beget those sentiments, because we get fed up of hearing about how any suspicion of a British rider, or any time Cavendish loses, or falls over (which is pretty regularly), or says something stupid in an interview (which is even more regularly), is some conspiracy to stop Brits winning because they're that good. It's not that I don't like Britain, British people or some crap like that. Emma Pooley is one of my favourite riders. It's that I don't like Dave Brailsford, or Mark Cavendish, or Team Sky.

Just ask ACF. He's got into about 2500% less arguments about Australians and Evans being conspired against since Evans won the Tour, because no longer was he whining about how Evans got screwed, so no longer were people either getting exasperated by it and getting sucked into unnecessary arguments, or winding him up about it.

Relax. Your guys just happen to be the top guys right now. The top guys always get gunned for, especially if they happen to do it in a suspicious manner. It's not because they're British, it's because they're almost too good to be true.

Oh, and because they're unbearably smug.

I call it the Manchester United effect.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I honestly don't see your point. I state Lance and Wiggins have a different cultural background, to accentuate the difference between the two, i.e. they are two different people from different backgrounds, with different influences and goals.

Every mention of culture cannot be met with 'oh no, the Brits are playing the culture card, lets say something about their teeth in respinse!'. I was accused of that when I was actually talking about the different cultures in track and road cycling. The

I reapeat, that post was about Lance and Wigins being distinct, individual people, from different cultures (oops) with a different genetic mack-up. Both nurture and nature are distinct and I stand by that. I am disappointed that you see it another way. But then easier to take the low road, isn't it.

Hi Jimmy,
You need to check your own post I quoted for you - you didn't just mention "cultural" but also "They are distinct people, separated not only nationality but by generation."

 

[thehog]

Both from single parent homes.

Closer than you think.

 

[Der Effe]

Both incredibly thick as well.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Every mention of culture cannot be met with 'oh no, the Brits are playing the culture card, lets say something about their teeth in respinse!'. I was accused of that when I was actually talking about the different cultures in track and road cycling. The

Tell that to the Italians, Spanish and Portuguese here. Lots of times we've heard the whole spiel about the culture in southern Europe being more forgiving than elsewhere, even as David Millar rides his guts out for "Team GB" and Italy puts out a team including a couple of neo-pros because they've barred anybody who's under investigation or served a ban from competing.

 

[MatParker117]

Tell that to the Italians, Spanish and Portuguese here. Lots of times we've heard the whole spiel about the culture in southern Europe being more forgiving than elsewhere, even as David Millar rides his guts out for "Team GB" and Italy puts out a team including a couple of neo-pros because they've barred anybody who's under investigation or served a ban from competing.

GB did until WADA took the BOA to CAS as the olympic ban apparently goes against there code.

 

[RownhamHill]

I think you need to check what Ferrari had advised instead of creating your own version.

I'd love to, but I don't speak Italian, so I can't. My version is taken from the translations provided by the lovely clinic poster (Slyvester I think) who does, posted in the other thread about the affadavit with the recording of the phone-call - here. And if it's written by a poster in the clinic it must be true, right?

Of course, if it isn't true it would be lovely to hear more about what he really did say. Yet no one seems to want to discuss that bit of the USADA case, or clear up the confusion. Can you explain what Ferrari was advising?

 

[ferryman]

Tell that to the Italians, Spanish and Portuguese here. Lots of times we've heard the whole spiel about the culture in southern Europe being more forgiving than elsewhere, even as David Millar rides his guts out for "Team GB" and Italy puts out a team including a couple of neo-pros because they've barred anybody who's under investigation or served a ban from competing.

Excellent posting as usual and your previous debunk post as well. Jimmy F doesn't get it or more likely doesn't want to get it. His 'examples' of racism show him up for what he is.

 

[The Hitch]

Wiggins another short prerecorded interview with his sponsor today.

Vouches for all the achievements of British cyclists this year and says "our achievements arent built on sand, they wont fall apart in 10 years".

Too many people imo are trying to judge current cyclists on Lances terms (eg, they arent going as fast as lance so they are clean, they arent as obvious as lance so they are clean, they didnt pay the uci like lance so they are clean, they dont boast about doping like lance so they are clean, etc)

Not all dopers went around telling everyone they are doping, so not doing it now is not a sign of being clean. there are plenty of people from 10 years ago and more who doped who still have their reputations in tact.