Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[thehog]

Nice to see a balanced post on this site.

I've read all the guff on Froome above and none of it is persuasive (to me)
For all the "never seen him anywhere before" = he was in Africa, how many African cyclists have you seen?
"Came from nowhere, performance improved" = Well was seriously ill with virus
"How can he be this good" = How many top Long Distance sportsmen have lived and trained at altitude in Kenya? LOADS: Froome is just the first cyclist

For me the clincher is this years Vuelta: how many riders get to lead a crack team at a GT? If he doped in the past, would he stop before his first big chance? Do you think, if he doped, that his performance would have tailed off like it did?

I accept that people have different opinions on this, but unless there is some new EVIDENCE or DATA, I'd prefer it posting was more restrained.

Or is the aim 1000 pages, come what may?

Alas since jumping from the Atomic Jock race in SA he came to Europe to zig zag up mountains in Europe for 3 years and show literally nothing.

Getting punched up by Simon Gerrans is "evidence" and "data" - video footage in fact. What do you want?

It wasn't that he was hiding in Kenya. Even when in Europe he was doing nothing.

Who said he stopped in this years Vuelta? He was riding against Valverde and Contador!

 

[the sceptic]

Get a serious blood disease. go to Kenya a bit for some magical training. Come back as the best climber and a top 3 time trialist. Sounds legit

 

[Mellow Velo]

I would love to see a link where it shows main stream press asking hard questions of Brailsford about Yates, Barry or Julich.

Back at ya.
I'd love to see a link to the irrefutable evidence uncovered by the Clinic that caused these guys to run for retirement and queue up to quit.
Stealing USADA's thunder, indeed.

 

[RownhamHill]

I accept that people have different opinions on this, but unless there is some new EVIDENCE or DATA, I'd prefer it posting was more restrained.

Or is the aim 1000 pages, come what may?

H'mmm. You seem to have forgotten, so I'll remind you.

It's ludicrous to expect there to be any evidence of doping.

 

[RownhamHill]

Back at ya.
I'd love to see a link to the irrefutable evidence uncovered by the Clinic that caused these guys to run for retirement and queue up to quit.
Stealing USADA's thunder, indeed.

See my reminder above.

 

[JimmyFingers]

For me the clincher is this years Vuelta: how many riders get to lead a crack team at a GT? If he doped in the past, would he stop before his first big chance? Do you think, if he doped, that his performance would have tailed off like it did?

You must have missed the discussions on Froome at the Vuelta here: at first he was going to smash the Spaniards all over the place, then when he didn't it was 'doper's fatigue' (very very different to normal fatigue), then Hoggo made a very direct prediction he would use his last blood bag on the rest day and come storming back into the top 3, but he didn't.

So race well, you are doping. Race badly, you are doping. The only way you can be clean is by....not racing

 

[taiwan]

analytical or non analytical positive.........1st hand testimony of doping practices etc

not continued suggestion

something of true substance

It's the Armstrong defence, worked because the sport is corrupt. If there were evidence of that quality there would be nothing to discuss.

 

[ebandit]

right?

It's the Armstrong defence, worked because the sport is corrupt. If there were evidence of that quality there would be nothing to discuss.

of course.......no evidence is proof of a conspiracy

remember with lance there was much evidence....quashed positives
details from team members etc etc etc

 

[TheGame]

Liggert theorem. "They have no proof". Being in the company of Phil is a great honor for many here.

Meanwhile in far far away in a lab at Sky HQ:

Froome dawg! Coming to a GT near you!

Not sure I see your point. There is a five year difference between those figures.
So the first, is a 22/23 year old, riding his first Grand Tour as a domestique for a relatively week team. He had already improved massively by the following year in the Giro. Now hes 5 years older and virtually riding as a protected rider. Contador finished 30th in his first GT, at 22, similar position to Froomes first Giro.

If you want ridiculous, look at Andy Schleck who at 22 was finishing on the Podium of Grand Tours.

 

[Grandillusion]

H'mmm. You seem to have forgotten, so I'll remind you.

It's ludicrous to expect there to be any evidence of doping.

Tell that to Travis Tygart.

 

[thehog]

Tell that to Travis Tygart.

"We have nothing to hide. We like our credibility"

 

[thehog]

Not sure I see your point. There is a five year difference between those figures.
So the first, is a 22/23 year old, riding his first Grand Tour as a domestique for a relatively week team. He had already improved massively by the following year in the Giro. Now hes 5 years older and virtually riding as a protected rider. Contador finished 30th in his first GT, at 22, similar position to Froomes first Giro.

If you want ridiculous, look at Andy Schleck who at 22 was finishing on the Podium of Grand Tours.

Andy Shleck has at least shown his talent early like LeMond or say Fignon. That to me is more normal than Froome Dog.

The Contador example is poor. Look at what Contador did between his first GT and then winning it. (Along with having a brain injury).

Froome did absolutely nothing. Nothing. When racing he showed absolutely none of the prowess he shows today. Ziltch.

Contador dope or no dope was winning races and steadily acceding to his first (albeit doped) GT win.

__

2005 – Liberty Seguros-Würth
Vuelta al País Vasco
3rd Overall classification
Winner points classification
1st, Stage 5b (ITT)
Tour Down Under
1st, Stage 5
Setmana Catalana
Winner overall classification
Winner combination classification
1st, Stage 3
Tour de Romandie
4th Overall classification
1st, Stage 4
2006 – Astana-Würth
Tour de Suisse
1st, Stage 8
Tour de Romandie
2nd Overall classification
1st, Stage 3
2007 – Discovery Channel
Vuelta a Castilla y León
Winner overall classification
Winner combination classification
Winner Spanish rider classification
1st, Stage 4
Paris–Nice
Winner overall classification
Winner young rider classification
1st, Stage 4

 

[Grandillusion]

"We have nothing to hide. We like our credibility"

That didn't get him far did it? How long did TT take to nail him with "non-existent" evidence? 3 weeks?

 

[ebandit]

move along

"We have nothing to hide. We like our credibility"

talk about 'move along nothing to see'

meaningless charts

claims of links to ferarri....................but when asked for details it's.. oh

so quiet?

 

[taiwan]

of course.......no evidence is proof of a conspiracy

remember with lance there was much evidence....quashed positives
details from team members etc etc etc

No I'm saying there will be no evidence/proof of doping/conspiracy unless someone fuucks up. It's not a treasure hunt, they're not deliberately leaving clues lying around. Noone concerned wants found out, including the UCI. But the team still smells of fish. Is the clinic all time maximum visitors count still on the day of Plateau de Belles Filles?

 

[ebandit]

sorry!

sorry! mate................stating that team sky is 'iffy'....it 'smells a bit'

is ok but after page after page there has to be questions asked

where is the proof?

 

[thehog]

sorry! mate................stating that team sky is 'iffy'....it 'smells a bit'

is ok but after page after page there has to be questions asked

where is the proof?

Outside from the fact that I actually know about the doping there is substantial proof in the form of video evidence.

I've shown the Froome links and just how ridiculous his improvement is. But you need positive tests? And of course we're aware they're 100% failsafe LOL!

Sadly you'll never get the proof you need. Because they won't be testing positive anytime soon.

In the face of the video evidence if thats not good enough for you I can't help you. If you don't want to see it you can't see it.

 

[ebandit]

proof

Outside from the fact that I actually know about the doping there is substantial proof in the form of video evidence.

I've shown the Froome links and just how ridiculous his improvement is. But you need positive tests? And of course we're aware they're 100% failsafe LOL!

Sadly you'll never get the proof you need. Because they won't be testing positive anytime soon.

In the face of the video evidence if thats not good enough for you I can't help you. If you don't want to see it you can't see it.

wow! 'substantial proof' of team sky doping......imagine the worth of such

a video to the media................are you keeping it with your evidence

of links to ferarri?

 

[thehog]

wow! 'substantial proof' of team sky doping......imagine the worth of such

a video to the media................are you keeping it with your evidence

of links to ferarri?

I'll never reveal my sources. That would be stupid. But they are doping. Sorry.

If you want the scoop you'll need to get it elsewhere. Sorry to disappoint.

 

[martinvickers]

It's the Armstrong defence, worked because the sport is corrupt. If there were evidence of that quality there would be nothing to discuss.

But that's the thing - there WAS evidence like that against LA, from a VERY VERY early stage - I repeat, Betsy and Emma were saying this from the word go, Walsh was not believing it from the word go, there was the odd treatment of Bassons and Simeoni - where are the sky/Garmin equivalents?

Contador was pinged. Valverde was pinged. Franck was pinged. Wiggins? not a dickybird - Cadel? 1 visit to Ferrari, otherwise, nada.

hmmm

 

[thehog]

__

2005 – Liberty Seguros-Würth
Vuelta al País Vasco
3rd Overall classification
Winner points classification
1st, Stage 5b (ITT)
Tour Down Under
1st, Stage 5
Setmana Catalana
Winner overall classification
Winner combination classification
1st, Stage 3
Tour de Romandie
4th Overall classification
1st, Stage 4
2006 – Astana-Würth
Tour de Suisse
1st, Stage 8
Tour de Romandie
2nd Overall classification
1st, Stage 3
2007 – Discovery Channel
Vuelta a Castilla y León
Winner overall classification
Winner combination classification
Winner Spanish rider classification
1st, Stage 4
Paris–Nice
Winner overall classification
Winner young rider classification
1st, Stage 4

& compared to Froome

1st Atomic Jock Race
3rd Tour of Mauritius

 

[taiwan]

@ebandit as I said, if there was a positive or a witness there would be nothing to discuss. But Wiggins' late bloom, Froome's, the doctor complicit in doping on Rabobank, the ex-Disco/Astana DS, the dominance at the Dauphinee and the Tour, the one-two at the Tour: together these have to arouse suspicion. Not buying them for a second.

Out of interest, despite the lack of proof one way or the other, do you think the team uses any banned substances/techniques? In the end they do or they don't.

 

[ebandit]

more bs

I'll never reveal my sources. That would be stupid. But they are doping. Sorry.

If you want the scoop you'll need to get it elsewhere. Sorry to disappoint.

oh so i must stand corrected..............you didn't make it all up re team sky

links to ferarri..........you have video evidence of team sky doping...........but

you can't share it with your good friends in the clinic................right!

 

[Benotti69]

Back at ya.
I'd love to see a link to the irrefutable evidence uncovered by the Clinic that caused these guys to run for retirement and queue up to quit.
Stealing USADA's thunder, indeed.

Where did USADA show Yates doped or that Leinder's doped rabobank?

Questions were being asked about Sky long before that. Sky bowed to the pressure to try and clean their appearance and hide the evidence.

We saw the riders doing it from Paris Nice to the TdF, but they cleared out staff not riders. Like that would be acceptable!

Brailsford has not provided a reason for not keeping TdF winning Doctor Geert Leinders with the team?

He has also in the interests of transparency not told what the investigation about Leinders discovered.

Ah transparency tranparency transparency. This word seems not to reach the peloton!

 

[mastersracer]

oh so i must stand corrected..............you didn't make it all up re team sky

links to ferarri..........you have video evidence of team sky doping...........but

you can't share it with your good friends in the clinic................right!

if he had any real evidence he'd be showing it to everyone - he desperately wants to look like an insider, he posts news stories from other sites without attribution so they appear to be his own, etc. Wait til he hears Froome's latest remarks about the team not being aggressive enough at the Tour this year.