Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Froome19]

What difference does it make?

It is currently the norm for riders to use high altitude bases such as Tenerife in order to build form, end of..

 

[will10]

Shock in the sense of seismic not surprise, don't try to be a smartarse.

I wasn't, that was genuinely how I read your post. Apologies.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

What difference does it make?

It is currently the norm for riders to use high altitude bases such as Tenerife in order to build form, end of..

Quite a lot - why pick the high altitude base that has a reputation for doping. It is a bit like why hire a doctor who was associated with doping programmes when at Rabobank, or why hire a DS who was well known for doping as a rider and was previously at CSC, Disco and Astana.

 

[armchairclimber]

Quite a lot - why pick the high altitude base that has a reputation for doping. It is a bit like why hire a doctor who was associated with doping programmes when at Rabobank, or why hire a DS who was well known for doping as a rider and was previously at CSC, Disco and Astana.

To flag up that you are doping of course.

What a clown.

 

[Grandillusion]

I wasn't, that was genuinely how I read your post. Apologies.

Sorry for being so defensive, I should have guessed it was an ambiguous turn of phrase. I promise I won't post any more, it must be making people cringe.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

The question was simply are there any viable alternatives?
It's not a trick question. I ask out of curiostity.
I cannot believe that the use of Tenerife goes unnoticed by the likes of Walsh and Kimmage.
The Island does raise a doping red flag.
Is there such a thing as an unimpeachable high altitude, mid-winter training ground?

Turn it around. Do you need to go there at all? Wiggins came 4th in 2009. Knock out the 2 dopers and he's 2nd, behind Andy Schleck.

He did NO altitude training in 2009.

Secondly: Assuming altitude training's primary goal is increase in Hgb mass. Altitude training effects (increased Hgb mass) are limited, and do not last much beyond 4 weeks (the life of the new blood cells). You have to spend some time at sealevel to readjust, you can't leap straight into racing. Riders (and there are many studies on tapering) typically have a 2 week taper pre-Tour, and then race on the flat for a week in the opening stages of the Tour.

So by the time you get to the mountain stages, it's been 3 weeks since you trained at altitude. Any Hgb mass increases are gone. And I'd be doubtful that any training adaptations you gained were still there either.

Look at 2011 - finished the Dauphine and went to Sestriere for 4 days. In 4 days you wouldn't get any increase in Hgb mass. Your body does not work that quickly. I am very suspicious of training adaptations from 4 days training being present 3 weeks later either.

Apparently, Aldo Sassi said the following:

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/533967/bradley-wiggins-s-tour-de-france-training.html
"An increase in the number of blood capillaries in the lungs and muscles is a big and lasting adaptation. More capillaries means more oxygen can be picked up by the lungs and more delivered to working muscles. The body also becomes better at taking up, transporting and delivering oxygen. There are hormonal changes too, mostly to do with the testosterone to cortisol balance in the body which maintain and even build muscle. That's a valuable thing during a hard training camp," he said.

I've been looking for that article for a while now, because it mentioned "de-saturation" as if it was some novel thing for Wiggins, when it's simply not.

Turns out they are claiming Hgb mass increase is not the goal of altitude training. You get new capillaries and what not that don't ever leave. Not sure how Aldo knew that without doing an autopsy on someone and I hear they are quite painful.


Funny how our resident PhDs haven't mentioned this testosterone / cortisol balance mumbo-jumbo and enhanced capillarisation, don't you think?

This warrants further research.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

And which are of course harder for testers to make unannounced visits.

Of course all of those attractions were also explanations put forward by Armstrong, Vino, Dertie etc when they went training in Tenerife.

The question is - are they going for the roads or for the drugs.

Why should we believe Sky?

It's a simple question, though. Where should they go? If you were Brailsford, where would you choose?

 

[thehog]

It's a simple question, though. Where should they go? If you were Brailsford, where would you choose?

What? There's no other mountain ranges in Europe?

High altitude is for hiding EPO/blood extraction.

If you need mountain training then there's plenty of places to go.

But you knew this. Even Ferrari said stop going there! Lol!

 

[noddy69]

No I don't need to do anything.

Your friends at Sky need to do the talking.

If they're happy to present to ASO they should be happy to show you the secrets behind their success.

Go knock on their door. I'm sure they'd be happy to show you their blood profiles

My friends ? No need to be so condescending and arrogant, I am open to something being wrong. I dont get why you bother posting you know something for certain than fail to show a shred of evidence other than you know with a 100% certainty. I am someone who doesnt want doping in cycling and am willing to believe something isnt right even though I did buy in to the transparency idea at the start of the year. Stating you know wiggins is working with ferrari is slanderous and dangerous if it isnt true so if it is you should back it up otherwise its plain rubbish.

All you have done is fuel an idea and given it no substance so for the moment its bull until you give it substance.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

What? There's no other mountain ranges in Europe?

High altitude is for hiding EPO/blood extraction.

If you need mountain training then there's plenty of places to go.

But you knew this. Even Ferrari said stop going there! Lol!

Didn't you say you went Tenerife?
So, why did you go there?

 

[Mellow Velo]

What? There's no other mountain ranges in Europe?

High altitude is for hiding EPO/blood extraction.

If you need mountain training then there's plenty of places to go.

But you knew this. Even Ferrari said stop going there! Lol!

Why not read the OP on this mini-topic before wading in with your size 10's?

 

[King Of The Wolds]

What? There's no other mountain ranges in Europe?

High altitude is for hiding EPO/blood extraction.

If you need mountain training then there's plenty of places to go.

But you knew this. Even Ferrari said stop going there! Lol!

So where in Europe, in late winter / spring would you go that guarantees good weather and comfortable surroundings?

 

[mocacso]

The cycling will take years because the bases are full of cyclists who have lived for years with doping and these can never teach young cyclists values ​​they have not known.

 

[thehog]

Didn't you say you went Tenerife?
So, why did you go there?

This is the 3rd and final time I say this. Do not reply to my posts. If someone asks politely then don't violate their space then please respect this point.

I won't ask again.

 

[thehog]

So where in Europe, in late winter / spring would you go that guarantees good weather and comfortable surroundings?

You tell me.

Sky are full of resources and endless money. Alas they choose a doping hotbed. I thought they had zero tolerance? Wouldn't clean team numero uno be better discovering uncharted lands elsewhere?

Besides they went in June as well. Why still go there if all they were only looking for was warm weather?

If they were into marginal gains and new methods of training why do they fall into all the old practices of doping teams before them?

I coud spend 15 minutes on Google and book the Sky team into a perfect mountainous resort thats not Tenerife.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

This is the 3rd and final time I say this. Do not reply to my posts. If someone asks politely then don't violate their space then please respect this point.

I won't ask again.

Does that work? Asking, I mean?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

You tell me.

Sky are full of resources and endless money. Alas they choose a doping hotbed. I thought they had zero tolerance? Wouldn't clean team numero uno be better discovering uncharted lands elsewhere?

Besides they went in June as well. Why still go there if all they were only looking for was warm weather?

If they were into marginal gains and new methods of training why do they fall into all the old practices of doping teams before them?

I coud spend 15 minutes on Google and book the Sky team into a perfect mountainous resort thats not Tenerife.

Wiggins was 4th (2nd if you knock out the caught dopers)in 2009 with NO altitude training. Why do it at all?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

This is the 3rd and final time I say this. Do not reply to my posts. If someone asks politely then don't violate their space then please respect this point.

I won't ask again.

Hi hog, respect is earned.

You post stuff on a public forum - then I will ask whatever I like.
So, did you claim you were in Tenerife? If so, why did you go there?

 

[Galic Ho]

The sheer f**king idiocy of your statement is mind boggling.

So with 40 days to the WINTER SOLSTICE, the sun doesn't set at 4pm or there about's in Britain, thus implying at 6pm it is dark? Yeah, keep downing the choad champ and don't forget to swallow. Your fanboy love is coming out. What is this a competition among you Brits to get a special Christmas prize?

Free advice. The riders at Sky despise you. They have no respect for you and yet you're on here lauding them with praise and tribute. Madness. Absolute madness. Keep the lovin going and BTW...nice simplistic handle.

 

[thehog]

My friends ? No need to be so condescending and arrogant, I am open to something being wrong. I dont get why you bother posting you know something for certain than fail to show a shred of evidence other than you know with a 100% certainty. I am someone who doesnt want doping in cycling and am willing to believe something isnt right even though I did buy in to the transparency idea at the start of the year. Stating you know wiggins is working with ferrari is slanderous and dangerous if it isnt true so if it is you should back it up otherwise its plain rubbish.

All you have done is fuel an idea and given it no substance so for the moment its bull until you give it substance.

Apologies no offence intended. I'm enjoying the debate.

What say we go backwards and connect the dots.

Tour de France 2012 - Sky literally rip the legs of every other team to the point they cannot attack (several quotes provided by riders on opposing teams).

Sky not only ripped off peoples legs but they did it with 6 guys (minus the sprinter, his helper and the dude they lost week 1 - ****sou).

Rogers during the Tour taunted the opposition by saying that no one could attack and if they did it didn't matter because he, Little Richie and the other henchmen were all punching 450w+ day in, day out and they'd eventually catch any foolhardy attacker in a short space of time.

Froome-dawg goes a little crazy, attacks, slows, soft pedals, gestures to the yellow jersey like a training ride whilst seasoned climbers (Nibili etc.) in the distance barely abele to keep up. He did this on more than one occasion.

Wiggins and Froome looking like concentration camp refugees somehow manage to go 1-2 in the ITT's and producing more power than the greatest TT'er of all time F.Cancellera. Producing more power for over an hour than guys 10kg more than them! That's like a feather weight fighter knocking down a heavyweight champion of the world!

Froome 10 minutes off the pace at Romandie - each stage.

Froome sick with illness that he can't train for 6-8 weeks of the year. Shows no form in any other race.

Wiggins to his credit had been in form all year but constant comments in the regards to being like Postal, loving Lance, 500 tests etc. are worrying.

are you getting it now....?

They talk of warming down, reverse periodisation, new methods of training dubbed "marginal gains" they head to the number one doper paradise in the world - Tenerife...

...looks a little crazy does it not?

Tenerife, Yates, Rogers, Lance, etc etc etc etc etc.






Ferrari. Period.


With all that cycling for the better part of 20 years has been mired in doping. Riddled with doping. The UCI has a lot of questions over its head. The same people who presided over the doping eras (plural) are still in control. Cyclists, DS and the like have been doping and working with questionable doctors since about 1987.

What changed in 2012 that one team (only) could dominate to such a degree but also be the the line in the sand of clean cycling?

I don't get it.

 

[Froome19]

You tell me.


If they were into marginal gains and new methods of training why do they fall into all the old practices of doping teams before them?

Because they use the best resources and techniques possible, not necessarily the newest techniques. Just FYI reverse periodisation was first used in the 70s I believe, if not earlier. If that involves going to Tenerife then so be it.

And also stop repeating the whole Tour unbelievable performance spiel. Everybody here knows it and it does not contribute anything, even Sky supporters take it in and acknowledge.. just refuse to consider it as definitive proof.

 

[thehog]

Because they use the best resources and techniques possible, not necessarily the newest techniques. Just FYI reverse periodisation was first used in the 70s I believe, if not earlier. If that involves going to Tenerife then so be it.

And also stop repeating the whole Tour unbelievable performance spiel. Everybody here knows it and it does not contribute anything, even Sky supporters take it in and acknowledge.. just refuse to consider it as definitive proof.

You're my friend now. But I cracked that RP was from the 70's because you were touting it as some form of new aged training from Sky. I started the thread on this very forum to debunk it as the new new training trick.

I'm not following how RP means going to certain locations in the world.

How does Reverse Periodisation mandate Tenerife as a training venue?

(scratching head).

*Thanks for at least acknowledging Sky performances were ridiculous at the Tour.

 

[Galic Ho]

of course we need to be sceptical ....i have my doubts...but this is no

proof................poor pr for sure but until there is evidence team sky

must be considered clean

Simple questions you need to answer. Did you read the forum before 2012? Are you aware of what the purpose of the Clinic is? Are you aware of the history in cycling?

You argument sounds like the typical LA fanboy response pre 2012. Lance is clean, blah, blah, no evidence, he cannot even be suspected of doping. Are you British? Did you allegiance for cheering switch to Sky upon their entrance to the sport in 2010 or when Wiggins started winning in 2011 or 2012? You see you could answer and clear up what is presumed to be selective myopic fanboy bias on your behalf, or you could leave it blank and the obvious will still be there. You won't.

Free advice. Ask someone for Dimspace's forum and go there. You'll fit in nicely with that idiot and a few of his fellow UK mods. You clearly lack the fortitude and mental toughness to withstand the common practices of the forum. This forum has talk about doping. No where is it stated that anyone is considered clean. Actually the state of cycling implies that the winners and dominating riders performance wise are always, always suspicious and questioned. They aren't given a free pass and the burden of proof lies upon them. All their hollow talk still holds them up as hypocrites worthy of extreme doubt and prejudice against their cleanliness. The directors leaving the team is proof of such doubt as they contributed to the doping cloud that has rained non stop on cycling for decades.

Got a problem with that, then present something valid, not your own fanboy drivel that life is hard. It's far from hard for Sky. Weak UK press. Weak UK fanboys who buy hook line and sinker everything they are fed. With fans like you, they are set. They're following the Lance play book. Everything is kosher, well until the pig squeals. Word is still out on who that is. Some think Cav, I'm going for Froome. Read the last 9000 posts and use your brain. Froome has been stating Sky were too soft at the Tour. That boy has the brain power of many of his fanboys...zip, nada, niet, zero, zilch, nothing. Born idiot. Sorry Blackcat, he is a special kind of ***. I say let him keep talking, in one interview he undid all his previous work. All of it. With that thinking, the racing in 2013 where he rides will be 100% absurb. Contador, Schleck, Nibali, Valverde and Rodriguez...do you think they'll sit still with their team directors and let Sky walk over them?

Here is a prediction Hog. 2012 was bad, just wait till half the peloton gets in on the act and opens the floodgates to try and quell Sky. Froome has fired first volley. He knows the only way to win at Sky is get in the press and push his credentials. Too many commoners trying to be king. Too many roosters in the hen house. This will end badly. Thomas and Kennaugh are better better than both Wiggins and Froome...they'll miss out. Murdoch better spread that money to silence the upset. Jealousy will bring this palace of cards down.

BTW free tip quickie. Maybe the Sky fanboys could open a thread and start their own corner of wallowing. Perhaps even a Christmas party? Get together, exchange stories of your idols, memorabilia, heck maybe even a petition to get your boys to show you some love? That's right...they don't care about you. You bought the story first go, no need to cater to you. As for the party...England is the size of a shoe box, I'm sure you can all find a nice central location where everyone can make it You really should do it. Don't forget to send Dim an invite.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Wiggins was 4th (2nd if you knock out the caught dopers)in 2009 with NO altitude training. Why do it at all?

That is a pretty poor argument though, isn't it? If you do well then why do something that could potentially make you better?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

That is a pretty poor argument though, isn't it? If you do well then why do something that could potentially make you better?

Because the altitude training was done to circumvent the de-saturation observed in the 2010 Tour where Wiggins came 24th. As if all of a sudden his 24th in 2010 was due to physiological limitations not present in 2009 and miraculously absent once again in 2011/12.