Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Bernie's eyesore]

The remaining 189 cyclists in the Tour peloton who could not attack is all the evidence you need.

Riders did attack, I must have been watching a different race.

 

[Froome19]

I would agree.

If Sky are looking for the edge, have 100% zero tolerance policy on doping and want to win clean then why are they going to doper paradise?

Tenerife is not "new" nor is it "innovative" training technique. Its a tried and tested hotbed for dopers who are part of a year long program.

Why do they want to emulate "Postal" via statements in the media and go to Tenerife?

With the resources Sky have wouldn't they be building a practice in England for future/teams generations? Wouldn't they be looking for places outside of the regular haunts of the last 20 years of mired in doping cycling to gain "the edge" ?

Outside of Kerrison wouldn't they be hiring people with no doping history or very little? Former Rabo Doctors and the like doesn't make a lot sense.

Zero Tolerance + Marginal gains = Tenerife (Lance) ? Does not add up.

Sorry.

So you are attacking their zero tolerance stance now..?

Well let me tell you a secret.. the zero tolerance stance was only ever a PR bluff. It was an intention of good will, but Sky never really bothered to back it up because they never really got the fact that the cycling world would expect them to actually bother to come along and really interrogate the team. They went to training camps which were the most ideal and hired the staff which were available and they wanted, regardless of their policy.

They hire the staff they hire.. zero tolerance or no zero tolerance

 

[Froome19]

The remaining 189 cyclists in the Tour peloton who could not attack is all the evidence you need.

And I have said that Sky's superiority could be down to Kerrison, marginal gains, RP, rigorous testing and all that stuff..

And you have said that what about Tenerife, hiring dopers and all that.
And I have said well that does not say they have been doping for sure, it can all be explained..
And you have said well what about Sky's superiority?

It seems like there has been a slight breakdown in communication here

 

[thehog]

So you are attacking their zero tolerance stance now..?

Well let me tell you a secret.. the zero tolerance stance was only ever a PR bluff. It was an intention of good will, but Sky never really bothered to back it up because they never really got the fact that the cycling world would expect them to actually bother to come along and really interrogate the team. They went to training camps which were the most ideal and hired the staff which were available and they wanted, regardless of their policy.

They hire the staff they hire.. zero tolerance or no zero tolerance

I'm not attacking anything. I just saying Sky are doping. That's ok with me. And I'm also ok with those who want to believe they're clean.

But I'm glad we agree zero tolerance is bumf. Which leads one to believe that Sky have a tendency to bend the truth with it suits them to "pretend" to be clean. But thats expected.

Thank-you.

 

[noddy69]

Noddy you have to better than that.

All you're saying is "its not 100% certain" without providing any counter analysis yourself.

You've dumbed it down to "there is a god" - "no there's not" type argument.

I would have preferred if you put some thought and effort into it.

So here are my points I'd like to see you either debunk them or provide counter analysis of cleanness.


Wiggins/Froome -> Rogers/Yates/Julich(LANCE) -> Tenerife -> Extremem weight loss -> Absurd Tour performances - Doping/Ferrari.

I have not said anywhere I believe them to be clean so I dont need to try to debunk what your saying. In fact I find myself agreeing with the theory apart from the most damning point you make. Apart from being the most damning its also the only solid evidence that could join the dots together without it just being an opinion. In my opinion they associated with dopers, they train in a place that is suspect,although a good training base, and lets be honest Wiggins just claimed third in a dopers tour so if he wasnt doping then its suspect enough but the performances over the last couple of years are nearly beyond belief. But that is not enough to completely damn them. The vuelta was a good example of the spanish clearly doping yet not proof.

Your apparent knowledge and 100% guarantee that wiggins is working with ferrari is the key to pandoras box and you either dont want to share it or its fabricated to back up your opinion.....which at the moment is all you have given.

 

[profff]

tenerife is a very good spot for high altitude training, one of the best of the world.
tenerife is not a proof of doping, maybe all the other things you said are , but tenerife does not prove anything.

do you think that altitude training should be banned from the sport of cycling?

sierra nevada is ok, etna may be or are they suspicious too?
what about colombia or mexico?
stelvio and font romeu do prove doping?
what about the san pellegrino , where usually liquigas was doing altitude training?

can anybody suggest me a location for altitude training that is not a proof for doping ( i am obviously excluding a priori San Moritz) ?

 

[armchairclimber]

Tenerife ... warm climate and good high altitude roads.

Tenerife ... known venue for doping in cycling.

Tenerife ... obvious place for WADA to look.

Tenerife ... obvious place to train if you want to appear clean.

Tenerife ... my Nan used to love it.

Tenerife ... all cyclists who go there are there to dope.

Tenerife ... there's a big volcano.

Tenerife ... carry on.

 

[thehog]

I have not said anywhere I believe them to be clean so I dont need to try to debunk what your saying.

In fact I find myself agreeing with the theory apart from the most damning point you make.

In my opinion they associated with dopers, they train in a place that is suspect,although a good training base, and lets be honest Wiggins just claimed third in a dopers tour so if he wasnt doping then its suspect enough but the performances over the last couple of years are nearly beyond belief.

But that is not enough to completely damn them. The vuelta was a good example of the spanish clearly doping yet not proof.

.

Thanks Noddy. I now respect you. I agree. Sky are suspect. In my opinion they are bad eggs.

And those darn Spanish! Clearly doping. No proof.

So what is proof again?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Thanks Noddy. I now respect you. I agree. Sky are suspect. In my opinion they are bad eggs.

And those darn Spanish! Clearly doping. No proof.

So what is proof again?

Proof for me is if say Brad was working with a notorious Italian Doctor who was recently banned for life.
If someone made that claim and backed it up then I am sure even you would not say "Sky are suspect" and it would be confirmation they are indeed doping.

Squeal Hog, squeal.

 

[thehog]

tenerife is a very good spot for high altitude training, one of the best of the world.
tenerife is not a proof of doping, maybe all the other things you said are , but tenerife does not prove anything.

do you think that altitude training should be banned from the sport of cycling?

sierra nevada is ok, etna may be or are they suspicious too?
what about colombia or mexico?
stelvio and font romeu do prove doping?
what about the san pellegrino , where usually liquigas was doing altitude training?

can anybody suggest me a location for altitude training that is not a proof for doping ( i am obviously excluding a priori San Moritz) ?

Who said Tenerife is proof of doping? No one.

Get your story straight boy.

 

[noddy69]

Thanks Noddy. I now respect you. I agree. Sky are suspect. In my opinion they are bad eggs.

And those darn Spanish! Clearly doping. No proof.

So what is proof again?

Ok now I.m getting frustrated with your response as it keeps coming back to what is proof? The answer for me personally and one which would be accepted by most is working with Dr Ferrari. You know this, yet you choose to ignore the fact. You are ignoring in your responses the fact that you said you knew with 100% certainty he was. The debate with you has finished with you not giving any back up to credit what you said with being true.

Truly disappointed ......but I'll get over it before next years farce starts .......and yes those darn spanish

 

[thehog]

Sure. Let's play connect the dots.


Ferrari (master of no positives & drugs)
|
Rogers/Yates/Lance love (mentoring proven)
|
Tenerife
|
Inhumane power levels for weight ratio (A Ferrari speciality)
|
Wiggins.


- But I'm sure you'll tell me this means nothing. All this has been disproven as hearsay

Its just a myth

Great post Hog.

But you forgot MotoMan!! The Sky car and Yates with his arm around MotoMan in the USADA dossier.

 

[thehog]

Great post Hog.

But you forgot MotoMan!! The Sky car and Yates with his arm around MotoMan in the USADA dossier.

Thanks Hog. I almost forgot! Good spot!

I've updated the "connect the dots":


Ferrari (master of no positives & drugs)
|
Rogers/Yates/Lance love (mentoring proven)
|
Motoman
|
Tenerife
|
Inhuman power levels for weight ratio (A Ferrari speciality)
|
Wiggins.




(John, Paul, Ringo and now George! - the band is back together again!)

 

[andy1234]

Thanks Hog. I almost forgot! Good spot!

I've updated the "connect the dots":


Ferrari (master of no positives & drugs)
|
Rogers/Yates/Lance love (mentoring proven)
|
Motoman
|
Tenerife
|
Inhuman power levels for weight ratio (A Ferrari speciality)
|
Wiggins.




(John, Paul, Ringo and now George! - the band is back together again!)

Shouldn't Kevin Bacon be in there somewhere?

 

[thehog]

Shouldn't Kevin Bacon be in there somewhere?

He was isolated from a small country town for the way he danced. Not for doping.

 

[andy1234]

He was isolated from a small country town for the way he danced. Not for doping.

Quite right.
Zero tolerance is the way forward with dodgy dancing.
Its a clear indication of being off yer t1ts.

 

[noddy69]

Thanks Hog. I almost forgot! Good spot!

I've updated the "connect the dots":


Ferrari (master of no positives & drugs)
|
Rogers/Yates/Lance love (mentoring proven)
|
Motoman
|
Tenerife
|
Inhuman power levels for weight ratio (A Ferrari speciality)
|
Wiggins.




(John, Paul, Ringo and now George! - the band is back together again!)

Hog thats not 100% proof its just a good guess. Its thats what you use to justify 100% certainty than your gonna have to try better. For all you know it could be DR A N OTHER and not ferrari at all because you have no proof just guesswork. Youll have to do more to convince me of the certainty of the Ferrari link cause at the moment there is none.....try eye witnesses,video,paper trail etc etc anything that can prove a link .If you have any that is . If not just say so.

 

[spetsa]

tenerife is a very good spot for high altitude training, one of the best of the world.
tenerife is not a proof of doping, maybe all the other things you said are , but tenerife does not prove anything.

do you think that altitude training should be banned from the sport of cycling?

sierra nevada is ok, etna may be or are they suspicious too?
what about colombia or mexico?
stelvio and font romeu do prove doping?
what about the san pellegrino , where usually liquigas was doing altitude training?

can anybody suggest me a location for altitude training that is not a proof for doping ( i am obviously excluding a priori San Moritz) ?

Going to elevation to train is nothing more than a good excuse for a change in your blood passport. I am sure that if we were provided with Sky team passport info we would find that they are all very good receptors of being at elvation for a couple of weeks.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Going to elevation to train is nothing more than a good excuse for a change in your blood passport. I am sure that if we were provided with Sky team passport info we would find that they are all very good receptors of being at elvation for a couple of weeks.

Just out of interest - is there any scientific evidence that altitude training in the off-season boosts performance during the season?

 

[noddy69]

Going to elevation to train is nothing more than a good excuse for a change in your blood passport. I am sure that if we were provided with Sky team passport info we would find that they are all very good receptors of being at elvation for a couple of weeks.

While what you say may have some merit, how exactly would teams train in the mountains without altitude training ? You cannot leave mountain training out of your preparation and when teams do go to altitude people cry foul....catch 22.

As far as I know the effects dont last long within the body so it should be a simple test to catch the cheats on this one and why they are not is beyond me. But at the end of the day if teams dont prepare in the mountains then they are preparing to fail.....go figure.

 

[thehog]

While what you say may have some merit, how exactly would teams train in the mountains without altitude training ? You cannot leave mountain training out of your preparation and when teams do go to altitude people cry foul....catch 22.

As far as I know the effects dont last long within the body so it should be a simple test to catch the cheats on this one and why they are not is beyond me. But at the end of the day if teams dont prepare in the mountains then they are preparing to fail.....go figure.

Wats wrong with the Alps or Pyrenees?

The mountain ranges they use in the Tour not good enough?

 

[noddy69]

Wats wrong with the Alps or Pyrenees?

The mountain ranges they use in the Tour not good enough?

Whats wrong with Tenerife,its a lovely place and great training spot. Doping is done by people not places

 

[noddy69]

Now if you happened to be in Tenerife at the same time as a speedy doctor and someone happened to see this doctor talking to you and then put one and one together and made two and had photographic evidence then Tenerife would be a problem because you could be 100% certain they were doping.....but I havent heard anyone who could back this type of thing up

 

[spetsa]

While what you say may have some merit, how exactly would teams train in the mountains without altitude training ? You cannot leave mountain training out of your preparation and when teams do go to altitude people cry foul....catch 22.

Riding in the "mountains" does not equal elevation. There are many places where one could go and ride in the "mountains" all day long and never reach 5000ft in elevation.

 

[noddy69]

Riding in the "mountains" does not equal elevation. There are many places where one could go and ride in the "mountains" all day long and never reach 5000ft in elevation.

Name them. Then give me a good reason you would use them to train for racing where you will be at elevation !