Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[JimmyFingers]

Sky has an almost religious appeal to you doesn't it? Next you'll be telling me that you found an image of Wiggins in a piece of toast.

Lets be honest, if they produced a film featuring Wiggins shooting up with a syringe marked EPO you'd still deny that it was evidence or proof.

What I find ironic is the Skyfanboys getting very upset about Sky critics playing 'connect the dots' to suggest doping, but you are just as happy to play 'connect the dots' to 'prove' that Sky aren't doping, making assumption about what Ferrari would or would not do.

One rule for you, one rule for Sky critics.

Hypocrite much?

That's a lot of words that lack any sort of relevance or contribution to this debate. I'm really not interested in personal jibes, just want the truth. Just because I disagree with you over certain issues related to cycling doesn't make us enemies.

The point I am making is that if Sky are working with Ferrari they would be unlikely to be training in Teide after what he said as detailed in the Bertognolli affidavit. As I said I feel like it's a red herring.

I am surprised you take that so personally.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I rest my case.

Next time you wish to quote provide a link to said supposed quote

Game, set, match Hog

That was easy!

Saying things and putting smilie faces next to them doesn't make them true my friend

 

[thehog]

Saying things and putting smilie faces next to them doesn't make them true my friend

Links?

Ferrari quotes?

Pants on fire indeed.

Well, well, well.

You can quote a crash but not a Ferrari quote l

You're a strange man. A strange man indeed.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Jimmy and Hog, take your quibble to PMs. Stay on topic and stop with the personal stuff.

Yes, you may take this as an official warning.

Susan

 

[JimmyFingers]

Links?

Ferrari quotes?

Pants on fire indeed.

Well, well, well.

You can quote a crash but not a Ferrari quote l

You're a strange man. A strange man indeed.

No, I am asking you to quote from the Bertognolli affidavit to prove Ferrari didn't say not to use Teide

 

[JimmyFingers]

Jimmy and Hog, take your quibble to PMs. Stay on topic and stop with the personal stuff.

Yes, you may take this as an official warning.

Susan

I am trying to keep the debate from becoming personal, I have no interests in getting bogged down in personal arguments, particularly after receiving a torrent of abuse via PM over the weekend.

 

[thehog]

No, I am asking you to quote from the Bertognolli affidavit to prove Ferrari didn't say not to use Teide

Why me? You brought it up the quote.

You just don't have the quote do you? Pants on fire.

A fanboy and a liar.

Asking me to quote a quote that doesn't exist? (Seriously?)

Deary me. Haven't we come a long way.

Put up or shut up. Show me the quote you reference.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

You look at the material and connect the dots and assume that Ferrari wouldn't go back to Tenerife. This is the very thing you have spent the last condemning Sky critics for doing.

It seems to me that connecting the dots and making assumptions is only acceptable in your eyes when it points to Sky not doping but when it comes to pointing to Sky doping then it is the product of a fevered imagination/anti-Britishness/bitter jealousy.

 

[JimmyFingers]

you might want to edit that

 

[thehog]

you might want to edit that

Link the quote. Come on. We're waiting. Shows us.

Come on Jimmy. We're waiting. Quote up!

 

[JimmyFingers]

You look at the material and connect the dots and assume that Ferrari wouldn't go back to Tenerife. This is the very thing you have spent the last condemning Sky critics for doing.

I don't believe I'm assuming, I'm just looking at likelihoods and logical choices. Given that it is monitored and riders have been caught there as a result, if you were doping you'd avoid places like that like the plague, both for the possibly of being caught and the speculation it opens you up to.

There is a possibility you'd go for the double bluff like you suggest, be brazen and assume the monitoring has tailed off, but it would be a high risk strategy. And if you avoid detection you still open yourself up to suspicion.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Jimmy and Hog, take your quibble to PMs. Stay on topic and stop with the personal stuff.

Yes, you may take this as an official warning.

Susan

Hog you miss this?

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

I don't believe I'm assuming, I'm just looking at likelihoods and logical choices. Given that it is monitored and riders have been caught there as a result, if you were doping you'd avoid places like that like the plague, both for the possibly of being caught and the speculation it opens you up to.

There is a possibility you'd go for the double bluff like you suggest, be brazen and assume the monitoring has tailed off, but it would be a high risk strategy. And if you avoid detection you still open yourself up to suspicion.

You are assuming and speculating. You are connecting the dots to prove a point you want to see proved. But because you are doing it and because it achieves the result you desire (suggests Sky are clean) - it is therefore 'logical analysis'.

You can do this all you like, but don't dress yourself up as some how superior to those who do the same to criticise Sky.

 

[thehog]

Hog you miss this?

Nice deflection. But you quote Ferrari minus a link.

Pony up. Hardly off topic when you bring up the very topic!

Come on. Link please?

 

[JimmyFingers]

You are assuming and speculating. You are connecting the dots to prove a point you want to see proved. But because you are doing it and because it achieves the result you desire (suggests Sky are clean) - it is therefore 'logical analysis'.

You can do this all you like, but don't dress yourself up as some how superior to those who do the same to criticise Sky.

The difference is I'm not presenting it as definitive fact, I'm not presenting it as hard evidence. It is speculation and I'd like to think it's logical.

And don't thrust motives on to me that suit your 'narrative'.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

The difference is I'm not presenting it as definitive fact, I'm not presenting it as hard evidence. It is speculation and I'd like to think it's logical.

And don't thrust motives on to me that suit your 'narrative'.

The very things you condemn others for doing.

 

[JimmyFingers]

The very things you condemn others for doing.

Show me where I condemn someone for speculating? I don't, I condemn them for speculating but dressing it up as hard evidence.

All we have here is speculation, we have no proof and we have a paucity of quantitative data to draw upon. There's tennuous circumstancial evidence but little else. You join the dots your way, I'll do it mine, we'll probably arrive at different conclusions and then we debate them.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Link the quote. Come on. We're waiting. Shows us.

Come on Jimmy. We're waiting. Quote up!

I'm not going to trawl through this discourse you two have been having, but is it a link to Ferrari saying, no no, don't go to Teide?
If so, the OP on this thread provides a "loose" translation:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18784

* Ferrari asks Bertagnolli which blood bags he used, Contador might have used bags in PVC, Bertagnolli has been using polypropylene bags which are not detectable, so he's not in trouble

* some stuff about blood transfusions, no details

* riders who want to dope can't go to Teide anymore because the place is "bruciata" - monitored and known by the antidoping authorities

* Ferrari speculates someone in the lab might have spiked Contador's blood with clenbuterol

* Bertagnolli asks if Contador might have used Actovegin, but Ferrari says no; "Actovegin is made of calf's blood, normally they don't use clen for that"

 

[thehog]

I'm not going to trawl through this discourse you two have been having, but is it a link to Ferrari saying, no no, don't go to Teide?
If so, the OP on this thread provides a "loose" translation:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18784

Thank-you. And yes it is a poor translation. Not bad just not in context.

Which becomes a problem with 3rd hand sources.

As i mentioned above Ferrari used the word "scorched" meaning "overused".

It wasn't a warning but more "be selective" of when go and who with. Which makes perfect sense.

Ferrari's not stupid. That's why he uses Stefano for communication and he also the outward communicator now that Michele knows he's being tapped.

I would also add that Ferrari states his innocence. He says he's never doped cyclists and is very aware the Italian authorities are recording him.

All I'd say is be very careful in quoting him. It's like quoting Madoff or Richard Fuld that all is well in the banking industry circa 2008.

I'd prefer if more reputable sources were used.

If Ferrari is all we've got then we'll go with it and take it with a grain of salt.


Back to Sky; it was Yates who recommended Tererife because Armstrong went there. That's a worry.

 

[JimmyFingers]

As i mentioned above Ferrari used the word "scorched" meaning "overused".

It wasn't a warning but more "be selective" of when go and who with. Which makes perfect sense

Source? Or is if that your own translation and interpretation? Is scorched a common word in Italian for 'over-used'? Scorched to me says destroyed, unusable i.e. scorched earth.

You ask for quotes and sources and yet provide none, but do go with a fairly fanciful interpretation.

 

[Mellow Velo]

I can see any mention of Tenerife in this general translation/appraisal of LB's testimony, but it does come up with Ferrari condemning anyone daft enough to use epo, in 2010:

http://thegaviafiles.tumblr.com/pos...tagnolli-testimony-a-look-into-ferraris-world

Ferrari considers EPO use to be suicidal. You’ll get caught, he says. It’s for suicidal crazies, he says.

 

[thehog]

Source? Or is if that your own translation and interpretation? Is scorched a common word in Italian for 'over-used'? Scorched to me says destroyed, unusable i.e. scorched earth.

You ask for quotes and sources and yet provide none, but do go with a fairly fanciful interpretation.

But you're using English context not Italian.

Languages do not directly translate into one another.

You can't use context as interchangeable meanings. You have to know the language.

The Italian language is renound for "over emphasis". The real meaning of the word would be "burnt" in English.

But you have to read everything Ferrari was saying. It wasn't "don't go to Tenerife". It was more "be careful - the land is burnt". It's a romantic language not cockney

Besides it was you who was quoting the 3rd-4th hand Ferrari report and stating it confirmed Sky's "innocence".

I look forward to the Sky PR machine using Ferrari in there next round of advertisements! Lol!

Ferrari is an unreliable source. If I were you I avoid using him as the beacon Sky's innocence. Especially when you don't have a link to what he actually said.

Give it a rest.

So back to Yates. Did you know he recommend Tenerife to Wiggins based on Armstrong's experience?

 

[JimmyFingers]

But you're using English context not Italian.

Languages do not directly translate into one another.

You can't use context as interchangeable meanings. You have to know the language.

The Italian language is renound for "over emphasis". The real meaning of the word would be "burnt" in English.

But you have to read everything Ferrari was saying. It wasn't "don't go to Tenerife". It was more "be careful - the land is burnt". It's a romantic language not cockney

Besides it was you who was quoting the 3rd-4th hand Ferrari report and stating it confirmed Sky's "innocence".

I look forward to the Sky PR machine using Ferrari in there next round of advertisements! Lol!

Ferrari is an unreliable source. If I were you I avoid using him as the beacon Sky's innocence. Especially when you don't have a link to what he actually said.

Give it a rest.

So back to Yates. Did you know he recommend Tenerife to Wiggins based on Armstrong's experience?

So just to clarify, this is your version of what Ferrari said, your translation and your interpretation. There seem to be other people translating and interpreting it other ways. I assume you have qualifications in the Italian language?

As despite saying it several times: I am not using Ferrari's quotes which you are so anxious to dismiss as a 'beacon' for Sky's innocence, merely saying that they are unlikely to be working with him as he indicated in that exchange with Bertognolli that using Teide is, shall we say dangerous?

I think even you might agree that to avoid both suspicion and the authorities, Teide is not the best choice for 'training'?

 

[Ferminal]

Ferrari's word is of course contradicted by "the islands are a disaster" (search the quote).

So you have two points of view, without knowing which one is (more) correct. Are you more, or less likely to be OoC'ed on Tenerife and other islands in the middle of nowhere? Not sure we can answer that.

 

[thehog]

So just to clarify, this is your version of what Ferrari said, your translation and your interpretation. There seem to be other people translating and interpreting it other ways. I assume you have qualifications in the Italian language?

As despite saying it several times: I am not using Ferrari's quotes which you are so anxious to dismiss as a 'beacon' for Sky's innocence, merely saying that they are unlikely to be working with him as he indicated in that exchange with Bertognolli that using Teide is, shall we say dangerous?

I think even you might agree that to avoid both suspicion and the authorities, Teide is not the best choice for 'training'?

Go to an Italian wedding and then you'll learn about "over emphasis"! Crying, singing, laughing all within 5 minutes of each other. Hear an Italian speak of their wife or husband. Love them so much but hate them all at the same time. Pantani was a classic example. His life long girlfriend was the best thing for him and the worst.

I think we need to cancel out Ferrari and his comments. He's unreliable. He's a convicted fraudster who's not admitted to his crimes. For the best part of 20 years he's being running the world most sophisticated and elaborate doping ring.

Do we really want to go quoting Ferrari? The Don of drugs?

To your final point. I agree 100%. If I were doping I'd not go to Tenerife. Alas dopers are creatures of habit (you need to cover your tracks) and Yates and Wiggins are not the smartest tools in the shed. They appear to follow the Armstrong/Ferrari template to a tee.

I think with the Sky members on the UCI board they had the testers angle covered though hence the use of Tenerife.


As side note you might want to ask TexPat about how he used to Chauffeur Ferrari about to avoid being seen by journalists and with Armstrong. All of that happened right under the media's nose without anyone knowing.