Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Mrs John Murphy]

Ferrari's word is of course contradicted by "the islands are a disaster" (search the quote).

So you have two points of view, without knowing which one is (more) correct. Are you more, or less likely to be OoC'ed on Tenerife and other islands in the middle of nowhere? Not sure we can answer that.

Do we know how many OOC tests were carried out at the various remote training camps last year?

 

[Ferminal]

Do we know how many OOC tests were carried out at the various remote training camps last year?

Not sure, I think in general there are far too few OoC tests for EPO.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Not sure, I think in general there are far too few OoC tests for EPO.

Related to this - under whose remit would OOC testing on Tenerife come? UCI? UKADA? Spanish anti-doping (who I see have been told to take a 50% budget cut next year)

 

[ebandit]

ferarri

before analysing ferarri's words would it not be best to establish a link

between ferarri and sky

the hog states he has proof of a working relationship but when pushed

changes that to............'join the dots etc'

myself and others say that unless it can be confirmed there is no link

 

[JimmyFingers]

I think we need to cancel out Ferrari and his comments. He's unreliable. He's a convicted fraudster who's not admitted to his crimes. For the best part of 20 years he's being running the world most sophisticated and elaborate doping ring.

Do we really want to go quoting Ferrari? The Don of drugs?

To your final point. I agree 100%. If I were doping I'd not go to Tenerife. Alas dopers are creatures of habit (you need to cover your tracks) and Yates and Wiggins are not the smartest tools in the shed. They appear to follow the Armstrong/Ferrari template to a tee.

Clearly someone speaking candidly to a client, a someone you describe as the Don of Drugs, has huge relevance to this debate. You are are trying to soften the interpretation of the remarks before trying to dismiss them altogether. Sounds like an attempt to sweep what he has sent under the carpet.

Secodnly you say dopers are creatures of habit, how so? I simply don't understand the remark and you are attaching a personality trait to a very disparate group of people. And if you need to cover your tracks, surely habitual routines aren't the way to do it. As for Yates and Wiggins' intellect, I'm not sure you are qualified to judge

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

before analysing ferarri's words would it not be best to establish a link

between ferarri and sky

the hog states he has proof of a working relationship but when pushed

changes that to............'join the dots etc'

myself and others say that unless it can be confirmed there is no link

I'd like to hear more about this link too but as it came from someone who thinks that Froome won the Tour de France, I won't be holding my breath.

 

[Ferminal]

Related to this - under whose remit would OOC testing on Tenerife come? UCI? UKADA? Spanish anti-doping (who I see have been told to take a 50% budget cut next year)

Should be UCI.

Problem is getting someone out there, taking samples, and getting back to a certified lab in time.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Should be UCI.

Problem is getting someone out there, taking samples, and getting back to a certified lab in time.

Which would make it an appealing location for someone looking to do some OOC doping.

 

[thehog]

Clearly someone speaking candidly to a client, a someone you describe as the Don of Drugs, has huge relevance to this debate. You are are trying to soften the interpretation of the remarks before trying to dismiss them altogether. Sounds like an attempt to sweep what he has sent under the carpet.

Secodnly you say dopers are creatures of habit, how so? I simply don't understand the remark and you are attaching a personality trait to a very disparate group of people. And if you need to cover your tracks, surely habitual routines aren't the way to do it. As for Yates and Wiggins' intellect, I'm not sure you are qualified to judge

Just so I get this straight. Wiggins at the recommendation of Yates began training in Tenerife in 2011 as it was an Armstrong/Yates/Ferrari special.

The Ferrari recording only came to public via the USADA report in late 2012.

Are you suggesting that Sky had advance warning from Ferrari that its ok to train clean in Tenerife thats its no longer a dopers paradise?

How did Sky know this?

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning.

Or did they just blindly go there not knowing it was a dopers paradise despite Yates and Armstrong using it at Discovery (See Coyle: War)? (including Rogers)


If you wish to quote Ferrari as virtue of Sky's innocence be my guest. I'm not stopping you.

You do make me laugh. You really do. Sky now can see into the future! They knew Ferrari had said this ahead of time!

Next you'll be passing on Armstrong quotes of for fact that Sky are clean! LOL!

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

Just so I get this straight. Wiggins at the recommendation of Yates began training in Tenerife in 2011 as it was an Armstrong/Yates/Ferrari special.

The Ferrari recording only came to public via the USADA report in late 2012.

Are you suggesting that Sky had advance warning from Ferrari that its ok to train clean in Tenerife thats its no longer a dopers paradise?

How did Sky know this?

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning.

Or did they just blindly go there not knowing it was a dopers paradise despite Yates and Armstrong using it at Discovery (See Coyle: War)? (including Rogers)


If you wish to quote Ferrari as virtue of Sky's innocence be my guest. I'm not stopping you.

You do make me laugh. You really do. Sky now can see into the future! They knew Ferrari had said this ahead of time!

Next you'll be passing on Armstrong quotes of for fact that Sky are clean! LOL!

Not sure I follow your logic. If Sky are clean then they wouldn't know what Ferrari had said and would train where they want. However, if as you say they are using Ferrari 100%, then they would know what his advice was and avoid the place.

 

[thehog]

Not sure I follow your logic. If Sky are clean then they wouldn't know what Ferrari had said and would train where they want. However, if as you say they are using Ferrari 100%, then they would know what his advice was and avoid the place.

Logic is sound.

Lets step through it;

Tenerife has a "dodgy" past for dopers - agreed?

Yates/Armstrong/Rogers all went to Tenerife for consultations with Ferrari and to dope in previous years - agreed?

Yates and Rogers join Sky. SKy start to train in Tenerife after the disaster that was 2010.

You don't think Yates and Rogers knew why to go to Tenerife? If clean they didn't warn Wiggins of its history and why they used it? and maybe "best not to go there - pick another venue"?

At the same time both Yates and Wiggins were making a lot of Lance love type statements especially in regards to his "training" regime.

Is that all not just a little bit strange?

Then this 4th hand Ferrari tape comes out and assures Sky's cleanses?

Seriously?

Rogers? Yates? Armstrong? Lance love statements?

 

[Hugh Januss]

We could have saved a lot of "taxpayers money" by just asking Ferrari if Lance ever doped, as he now seems to be some sort of an expert on "clean cyclists".

 

[noddy69]

Logic is sound.

Lets step through it;

Tenerife has a "dodgy" past for dopers - agreed?

Yates/Armstrong/Rogers all went to Tenerife for consultations with Ferrari and to dope in previous years - agreed?

Yates and Rogers join Sky. SKy start to train in Tenerife after the disaster that was 2010.

You don't think Yates and Rogers knew why to go to Tenerife? If clean they didn't warn Wiggins of its history and why they used it? and maybe "best not to go there - pick another venue"?

At the same time both Yates and Wiggins were making a lot of Lance love type statements especially in regards to his "training" regime.

Is that all not just a little bit strange?

Then this 4th hand Ferrari tape comes out and assures Sky's cleanses?

Seriously?

Rogers? Yates? Armstrong? Lance love statements?

Still dont know where your 100% certainty is and how you know for sure. You keep avoiding the fact you mentioned it with such assuredness and going into join the dots. Can you not see that this cant work as a 100% guarantee and would fall down in any court and in most peoples eyes. Just because someone is at the scene of a crime does not mean they committed it until you have some form of evidence and yours is not even evidence its public knowledge with a bit of assumption thrown in. I was actually hoping you had something substantial that would throw real light on last year and the end of 2011, but alas we wait.

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

Logic is sound.

Lets step through it;

Tenerife has a "dodgy" past for dopers - agreed?
Yates/Armstrong/Rogers all went to Tenerife for consultations with Ferrari and to dope in previous years - agreed?

Yates and Rogers join Sky. SKy start to train in Tenerife after the disaster that was 2010.

You don't think Yates and Rogers knew why to go to Tenerife? If clean they didn't warn Wiggins of its history and why they used it? and maybe "best not to go there - pick another venue"?

At the same time both Yates and Wiggins were making a lot of Lance love type statements especially in regards to his "training" regime.

Is that all not just a little bit strange?

Then this 4th hand Ferrari tape comes out and assures Sky's cleanses?

Seriously?

Rogers? Yates? Armstrong? Lance love statements?

Given the history of the sport, especially over the last twenty years or so, you could substitute Tenerife for pretty much any training location. I don't necessarily disagree with the other points, it's just I'm struggling with your logic over Tenerife. As other people have said it's a pretty good location for training. I've been to Amsterdam a number of times, doesn't make me a pot head though.

 

[Hugh Januss]

The whole premise behind cheating is not getting caught, which means not leaving evidence. If hard evidence exists then Sky have already screwed the pooch.
Are you guys saying that you would never suspect anyone of doing wrong until you saw hard evidence that they were? A lot of police work would remain undone if everyone thought that way.

 

[sublimit]

The whole premise behind cheating is not getting caught, which means not leaving evidence. If hard evidence exists then Sky have already screwed the pooch.
Are you guys saying that you would never suspect anyone of doing wrong until you saw hard evidence that they were? A lot of police work would remain undone if everyone thought that way.

Hogs attempts to be the new Sherlock Holmes are not convincing though. We need more than the childish join the dots stuff.

 

[andy1234]

The whole premise behind cheating is not getting caught, which means not leaving evidence. If hard evidence exists then Sky have already screwed the pooch.
Are you guys saying that you would never suspect anyone of doing wrong until you saw hard evidence that they were? A lot of police work would remain undone if everyone thought that way.

Suspect? yes.
Claim my suspicions are proof positive, no.

If 99 out of a hundred riders are dopers, it's only fair on the 1 clean rider to base accusations on hard evidence, not suspicions.

 

[Benotti69]

The whole premise behind cheating is not getting caught, which means not leaving evidence. If hard evidence exists then Sky have already screwed the pooch.
Are you guys saying that you would never suspect anyone of doing wrong until you saw hard evidence that they were? A lot of police work would remain undone if everyone thought that way.

The only evidence of Sky doping is probably staff and rider testimony.


They appear to have taken steps to ensure that will not see the light of day.

I would guess if there were positives the samples were destroyed.

 

[thehog]

Given the history of the sport, especially over the last twenty years or so, you could substitute Tenerife for pretty much any training location. I don't necessarily disagree with the other points, it's just I'm struggling with your logic over Tenerife. As other people have said it's a pretty good location for training. I've been to Amsterdam a number of times, doesn't make me a pot head though.

Cheers.

My post was response to others which "eluded" that the Ferrari transmission was some form of UCI communiqué that Tenerife was "now safe" for clean riders to train at and hence why Sky went there to train.

Sky doping or not doping understand the significance of Tenerife in doping scandals in the last 15 years. Not just Armstrong but literally 100's of cyclists with doping histories.

To say they didn't know about its past considering its personnel would be a ludicrous assertion.

And this is a team with "zero-tolorence"!

Hey now?!

 

[Hugh Januss]

Suspect? yes.
Claim my suspicions are proof positive, no.

If 99 out of a hundred riders are dopers, it's only fair on the 1 clean rider to base accusations on hard evidence, not suspicions.

If 99 out of a hundred riders are doping it is an awfully big stretch to think that the one not doping beat them all.

 

[andy1234]

If 99 out of a hundred riders are doping it is an awfully big stretch to think that the one not doping beat them all.

Agreed, but having seen it happen, means I have to give the benefit of the doubt.

 

[del1962]

Logic is sound.

Lets step through it;

Tenerife has a "dodgy" past for dopers - agreed?

Your first invalid assumpion, it is not Tenerife that has a dodgy past but some of the cyclists training there.

Yates/Armstrong/Rogers all went to Tenerife for consultations with Ferrari and to dope in previous years - agreed?

Armstong went to dope, Yates obvioulsy did not and we don't have enough information on Rogers meeting with Ferrari (but we have grounds for keeping an eye on Rogers).

Do we know if Yates knew of Armstrongs doping, we think he would have know but cannot be certain. But I suspect he did know.

Yates and Rogers join Sky. SKy start to train in Tenerife after the disaster that was 2010.

Sky starting training in tenerife, something we can agree on.

You don't think Yates and Rogers knew why to go to Tenerife? If clean they didn't warn Wiggins of its history and why they used it? and maybe "best not to go there - pick another venue"?

Why, Tenerife is a good venue to train whether you are a doper or clean, if it is the best venue to reach for those living in Europe there is no reason not to train there, just because some dopers have/ or did in the past.

At the same time both Yates and Wiggins were making a lot of Lance love type statements especially in regards to his "training" regime.

Yes Wiggins has made such statements about Lance.

Prooves nowt.

Is that all not just a little bit strange?

Then this 4th hand Ferrari tape comes out and assures Sky's cleanses?

Seriously?

Rogers? Yates? Armstrong? Lance love statements?

What Ferrari says is fairly irrelevent, there is not a case to answer anway.

All you really have is your suspicion that Wiggins is doping and are twisting things to confirm your suspicions, but there is no credible evidence.

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

Cheers.

My post was response to others which "eluded" that the Ferrari transmission was some form of UCI communiqué that Tenerife was "now safe" for clean riders to train at and hence why Sky went there to train.

Sky doping or not doping understand the significance of Tenerife in doping scandals in the last 15 years. Not just Armstrong but literally 100's of cyclists with doping histories.

To say they didn't know about its past considering its personnel would be a ludicrous assertion.

And this is a team with "zero-tolorence"!

Hey now?!

But, if they are clean why should they give a stuff about about the history of Tenerife? It's not as if you have to dope to train there. However, if as you say, they are using Ferrari, surely they would avoid it? This is where I cannot get a grip of your logic.

 

[thehog]

But, if they are clean why should they give a stuff about about the history of Tenerife? It's not as if you have to dope to train there. However, if as you say, they are using Ferrari, surely they would avoid it? This is where I cannot get a grip of your logic.

Why would they avoid it?

Yates used it, Armstrong used it, Rogers used it, Ferrari used it - a lot.

What's to avoid?

 

[thehog]

Your first invalid assumpion, it is not Tenerife that has a dodgy past but some of the cyclists training there.

.

I'm sorry but Tenerife in terns of doping cyclists has a horrendous past. Not invalid in the slightest. That's why we're having this discussion. Its known hotbed of doping. Due to its location it always made it hard for testers to get to and you knew when they'd be arriving.


Tenerife has a Grade A, Code Red, Def-Con-4 dodgy past. Are you aware of the history of cycling?