Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Benotti69]

Brad is not condemning Lance at all in those statements.

When you consider his outburst during the TdF against those questioning his credibility I imagined he would use stronger language against someone who doped to win 7 TdFs in a row.

Wiggins and wonderboy, thick as thieves.

 

[thehog]

When you consider his outburst during the TdF against those questioning his credibility I imagined he would use stronger language against someone who doped to win 7 TdFs in a row.

Wiggins and wonderboy, thick as thieves.

In 8 years time Taylor Phinney will be making the following statement:


"Its sad to read the fallout from the Sky investigations. It obviously occurred a long time ago in 2012 but its us cyclists here and now who have to pick up the pieces from what Wiggins and Froome did from 2012 to 2016. Its not good for cycling. I can safely say that the generation of cyclists now in 2020 are clean"

 

[DirtyWorks]

I think those payouts to the feds are based on a set formula; not sure how manipulating results could affect that formula?

Hold on. First we have to know what the formula is before you go knocking down my crackpot theory. I could be completely wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. Do you have any specific information regarding the distribution formula?

I see Pat endlessly talking about the "growth" of cycling when it's just not happening globally. Which is why I am lead to believe that there is a viewership component to how that money is distributed. What did the Sky fairy tale do for cycling during the Olympics? Boost viewership.

 

[DirtyWorks]

There's a big difference between what The Hitch just posted and the drivel spouted earlier by DirtyWorks.

Why pretend to have a discussion when a personal attack is so much easier?

What is the counter-argument to my crackpot theory?

-The UCI is a benevolent organization of Terrorists with the best interests of the sport in mind?
-Pat and Hein would never suppress a doping positive?
-Pat and Hein run a fair dealing federation?
-Sky is clean because they've never tested positive?
-The grand tour squad (ex. Froome) has always ridden like they did in 2012?

C'mon now. Tear down my crackpot theory. Let's see it.

 

[will10]

In 8 years time Taylor Phinney will be making the following statement:


"Its sad to read the fallout from the Sky investigations. It obviously occurred a long time ago in 2012 but its us cyclists here and now who have to pick up the pieces from what Wiggins and Froome did from 2012 to 2016. Its not good for cycling. I can safely say that the generation of cyclists now in 2020 are clean"

What makes you so sure Phinney is clean?

 

[DirtyWorks]

What makes you so sure Phinney is clean?

Thehog gets it and so do you. Mini Phinney is the next iteration.

Time for another "Good post Hog."

 

[sniper]

Why pretend to have a discussion when a personal attack is so much easier?

What is the counter-argument to my crackpot theory?

-The UCI is a benevolent organization of Terrorists with the best interests of the sport in mind?
-Pat and Hein would never suppress a doping positive?
-Pat and Hein run a fair dealing federation?
-Sky is clean because they've never tested positive?
-The grand tour squad (ex. Froome) has always ridden like they did in 2012?

C'mon now. Tear down my crackpot theory. Let's see it.

I like your theory.

Only this:
In 2010/11 already outsiders such as us crackpots in the Clinic were able to predict that the UCI is going down, bringing along the obvious risk that any hypothesized deals between UCI and Sky are exposed. Iow: Brailsford must have known in 2011 (or whenever it was he made the deal) that going into bed with the UCI is a risky business.
Has he been naive? Or has he calculated the risks and concluded they are negligible compared to the awards?

 

[IzzyStradlin]

So the 2013 plan appears to be Wiggo dodges Contador.....and serve Froome up as the sacrificial lame. F-his-L.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

In 8 years time Taylor Phinney will be making the following statement:


"Its sad to read the fallout from the Sky investigations. It obviously occurred a long time ago in 2012 but its us cyclists here and now who have to pick up the pieces from what Wiggins and Froome did from 2012 to 2016. Its not good for cycling. I can safely say that the generation of cyclists now in 2020 are clean"

Very good.
Will the time up AdH be faster or slower than in 2011/13?

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Why pretend to have a discussion when a personal attack is so much easier?

What is the counter-argument to my crackpot theory?

-The UCI is a benevolent organization of Terrorists with the best interests of the sport in mind?
-Pat and Hein would never suppress a doping positive?
-Pat and Hein run a fair dealing federation?
-Sky is clean because they've never tested positive?
-The grand tour squad (ex. Froome) has always ridden like they did in 2012?

C'mon now. Tear down my crackpot theory. Let's see it.

There's not really anything to tear down on your theory unless you can explain to me why you think the Olympics would have been a failure if Wiggins hadn't won the Tour. Murray lost the Wimbledon final for example but the Olympics did fine without him winning it. None of the other points you made have anything to do with your theory whatsoever.

 

[martinvickers]

Hold on. First we have to know what the formula is before you go knocking down my crackpot theory. I could be completely wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. Do you have any specific information regarding the distribution formula?

Handily enough, yes, a bit.

Sports are split into 4 groups. Athletics is alone in group 1 - it gets most, about twice as much as everyone else. In this cycle they hope for around $35m

Cycling is in group 2, with swimming, gymnastics and a few others. they all get the same as each other, in 2012 case hopefully around $18 each. Group 3 - $13m, group 4 $11m.

Your place in the order is decided by, and the monies distributed by the Association of International Olympic Sports Federations, which is made up of members of all the currently 26 sports.

Neither the IOC nor the BOA have any say in that distribution whatsoever, except for the IOC handing over the 'block grant' in the first place.

A slight bump for GB viewing figures makes absolutely no difference to this mechanism (and given Beijing track success, cycling is already going to be the hottest ticket in town; Sky won't alter that)

Now how the AISOF determines the share per group I don't know, hence my uncertainty on the formula - but I do know it's decided as a group - individual sports, bar arguably athletics as the entirety of Group 1, are not catered for separately.

Are we happy now?

I see Pat endlessly talking about the "growth" of cycling when it's just not happening globally. Which is why I am lead to believe that there is a viewership component to how that money is distributed. What did the Sky fairy tale do for cycling during the Olympics? Boost viewership.

You seriously think after the Hoy driven Beijing performance, Sky were needed to boost viewership?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Id like to think im not as much of a nutjob about this as others ( i don't for example think wiggins smoking is proof of doing) but i am disappointed by the interview and here is why.

When you have wiggins praising lance Armstrong as an inspiration for his win all year, now claiming he has never ridden with lance and that doping was "15 years ago" and froome becoming best rider in the world out of nowhere and guys like rogers and Barry and yates being hired even though everyone knew they had a past, and whatsmorr rogers finding the form of his life and wiggins, who spoke frankly about doping when he wasn't very good now cursing at the very idea of a doping question, and lienders in lswept under the rug for months before being dealt with only when the **** hit the fan and most importantly, bailsford treating anti doping entirely as a political campaign and not doing a single anti doping thing unless it can be sold to a very naive press (same press which believed pass 500 tests = doping not possible).

And here comes walsh and says that he bekieves sky are clean bevause vaughters ( who is hardly a stranger to running his own game) says that wiggins might could if everything went well with 2 ymore ears at garmjn have resembled something like the one we saw at sky, well that to me sounds like a massivr cop out that totaly plasters over the entire debate because "vaughters says so"


And id like to think that in an alternate universe in which my mind worked differently and for some reason i took the side that wiggins and bailsford really were the frontline against doping and that they only appeared to some people of above average intellgence to be on the other side because they have the self control of mr bean, id like to think thay even if i was on that side id still see dws interview as a cop out that does not adress the discussion at all.


Btw as regards kimmage i recall in the post lance stuff walsh was the one who said " i really hope wiggins is clean" and " he should speak out against this" which bailsford of course heard and arranged the scripted 2 minute promo where wiggins says that lance cheated and wiggins did not.
Kimmage meanwhile was asking sky questions.

Also is it not true that kimmage arrived far earlier at the lance doped conclusion?

So i have far more confident in kimmage than walsh. Hell i even posted a few months ago that i didnt think walsh knew half as much about doping as kimmage and was shut down by bennoti.

So lets leave the - its as if kimmage came out and said sky was clean for when the big man actually comes our and says it.

Not that i woulr.neccesarily move with kimmage, i believe the weakness with all these people os.that they want nothing else in life than clean cycling whereas one should never let your emoions cloud your judgment. Walsh clearly does and kimmage probably too but he is imo far stronger and has maybe seen enough to be a real cynic.

Pretty much this. Great post, Hitch.

 

[dolophonic]

Yes well put Hitch. As usual

 

[sniper]

something of a half interview with Ashenden, from today I think, though there's no date indicated. http://thestar.com.my/sports/story....8B20SE_RTROPTT_0_UK-CYCLING-LEMOND&sec=sports
Reference to Wiggins/Sky:

Bradley Wiggins, who rides for Team Sky, became the first Briton to win the Tour de France in 2012.

Team Sky has a zero tolerance policy towards staff members with a doping history and Wiggins angrily dismissed doping-related questions en route to his Tour triumph in the summer.

Ashenden said he was not accusing Wiggins of any wrongdoing but underlining the credibility issue the sport faces.

"That would be a remarkable day, when a rider can stand up and say "I won and you know that I didn't dope", blood dope, I need to be specific there," he said.

"The unfortunate reality is that everything that a rider can say today, Lance Armstrong already said. The reality is, no matter what a rider says, there is going to be doubt," he added.

Didn't Kimmage say something similar today?
At least different from the incredulous Millar/JV "Sky are clean" tune.

 

[will10]

I love that Hitch's post has clearly been posted from a smart phone, and has been typed so furiously and with such passion for waht he's writing that there was no time to correct any typos. Great effort dude.

 

[thehog]

something of a half interview with Ashenden, from today I think, though there's no date indicated. http://thestar.com.my/sports/story....8B20SE_RTROPTT_0_UK-CYCLING-LEMOND&sec=sports
Reference to Wiggins/Sky:

Didn't Kimmage say something similar today?
At least different from the incredulous Millar/JV "Sky are clean" tune.

Where's Richie Porte today? Has he been talking again?

 

[coinneach]

Where's Richie Porte today? Has he been talking again?

Lay off wee Richie, will ya?

Your constant snide sniping of him (without ANY evidence whatsoever) is turning me into being a big fan of Richie's.

If Froome fails next year, and Thomas doesn't progress, I'd like to see Richie getting a crack at a GT, just to p*** the Hog off!

 

[DirtyWorks]

Are we happy now?

Yes! More information is always better. Thanks for that. I need some time to digest it.

You seriously think after the Hoy driven Beijing performance, Sky were needed to boost viewership?

Yeah I do. I think it pulled in the more average Olympics viewer that heard about the Brit winning that famous race around France crowd.

 

[thehog]

Lay off wee Richie, will ya?

Your constant snide sniping of him (without ANY evidence whatsoever) is turning me into being a big fan of Richie's.

If Froome fails next year, and Thomas doesn't progress, I'd like to see Richie getting a crack at a GT, just to p*** the Hog off!

Richie's a good guy. I like him. Think he has excellent potential. I'm not sniping at him. I just don't like him getting caught up in the Sky doping.

He does talk you know.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Richie's a good guy. I like him. Think he has excellent potential. I'm not sniping at him. I just don't like him getting caught up in the Sky doping.

He does talk you know.

Does he say, "Good post, Hog?"

 

[thehog]

Does he say, "Good post, Hog?"

Generally not. But he likes talking.

 

[martinvickers]

Yeah I do. I think it pulled in the more average Olympics viewer that heard about the Brit winning that famous race around France crowd.

I looked it up (I do that, sadly)

Cav in the Road race, peak - 5.7 on TV, 1.4 red button, 0.5 streaming - total 7.6m - a race, i might add, that was absolutely advertised to the hilt as the 'first GB gold chance of the games'

Wiggo in time trial, peak - 6.2 on TV, 0.6 red button, 0.7 streaming - total 7.5m

Hoy in Keirin, peak - 9.8 million on television alone, Pendleton numbers similar (understandably, same night and all)

Like it or not, GB, TdF notwithstanding, is still a track cycling loving country. And after Beijing, they were watching the velodrome, SkyTeam or not. It's not just beijing of course, its the recent history - Boardman's superbike, the Queelly gold which ushered in the start of the post-lottery renaissance.

Wiggo didn't pull a single extra viewer for 'his' race. Indeed, he pulled a minimum of 2.3 million less. Wiggins actually got the smallest peak audience of the three 'main' races.

Don't get me wrong, the TdF is a super serious big deal in GB. Wiggo is going to walk the Sports Personality of the Year awards - but that doesn't translate quite the way you suggest it does.

In Olympic terms - the main man is, was, and remains, Hoy. It's Hoy on the closing montages, Hoy carrying the flag, how tearing up for the camera. The TdF may be 'the single greatest achievement by a brit cyclist' but I'd venture if you asked who the greatest great britain cyclist was? Hoy would win.

I can't think of many countries bar australia where trackies would even be considered in that discussion.

And anyway, as the financial stuff earlier showed, it doesn't really have any relevance anyway. viewing figures mean nothing to the money UCI gets.

Still, fun theory, crackpot or not, and i got to edu-me-cate meself into the bargain...

 

[The Hitch]

I looked it up (I do that, sadly)

Cav in the Road race, peak - 5.7 on TV, 1.4 red button, 0.5 streaming - total 7.6m - a race, i might add, that was absolutely advertised to the hilt as the 'first GB gold chance of the games'

Wiggo in time trial, peak - 6.2 on TV, 0.6 red button, 0.7 streaming - total 7.5m

Hoy in Keirin, peak - 9.8 million on television alone, Pendleton numbers similar (understandably, same night and all)

Like it or not, GB, TdF notwithstanding, is still a track cycling loving country. And after Beijing, they were watching the velodrome, SkyTeam or not. It's not just beijing of course, its the recent history - Boardman's superbike, the Queelly gold which ushered in the start of the post-lottery renaissance.

Wiggo didn't pull a single extra viewer for 'his' race. Indeed, he pulled a minimum of 2.3 million less. Wiggins actually got the smallest peak audience of the three 'main' races.

Don't get me wrong, the TdF is a super serious big deal in GB. Wiggo is going to walk the Sports Personality of the Year awards - but that doesn't translate quite the way you suggest it does.

And anyway, as the financial stuff earlier showed, it doesn't really have any relevance anyway...

But Wiggins was a Wednsday too and i know lots of people had work whereas Cav was a Saturday and the opening event of the olympics no less.

Wiggins did get some promotion with the sun doing some get free wiggins clip on sideburns with your daily tits and celebrity gossip deal.

Though on the other hand, the road race had about 2 million of its base fans out on the road and a good million of those around box hill and nowhere near any tv to register their numbers on the peak time viewership thing.

 

[martinvickers]

Wiggins was a wednsday too whereas Cav was a Saturday and the opening event of the olympics no less.

One has to add context, i suppose - GB were starting to get desperate for golds by day 5 (odd in retrospect), so even though Glover and Stanning broke the duck that morning, it was still THE event of that day.

Though it's the comparison with Hoy i still think makes the point. The viewers were already there - GB loves olympic cycling.

And ALL the 'free' events were packed to the gunnels - Cav's race, the time trials, the Triathlon, especially the men's - it was approaching dangerous in some parts of Hyde Park. Bit of a stretch to consider it a Wiggo/Sky effect.

People seem to forget that until this july GB's ideas of 'road wealth' were tied up, not in Wiggo, but in Cav, the green jersey and the sprints down the champs. Cav is reigning SPOTY, remember!! And none of his major achievements were during his time with SKY.

 

[The Hitch]

One has to add context, i suppose - GB were starting to get desperate for golds by day 5 (odd in retrospect), so even though Glover and Stanning broke the duck that morning, it was still THE event of that day.

Though it's the comparison with Hoy i still think makes the point. The viewers were already there - GB loves olympic cycling.

And ALL the 'free' events were packed to the gunnels - Cav's race, the time trials, the Triathlon, especially the men's - it was approaching dangerous in some parts of Hyde Park. Bit of a stretch to consider it a Wiggo/Sky effect.

People seem to forget that until this july GB's ideas of 'road wealth' were tied up, not in Wiggo, but in Cav, the green jersey and the sprints down the champs. Cav is reigning SPOTY, remember!! And none of his major achievements were during his time with SKY.

The time trial was a loop of what 45k? The road race was 80k to box hill, 8k lap around it where the rafters really were packed to the brim and a different 80k back.

Clearly the road race could and did fit far more people. Plenty of people who would not be otherwise bothered to go somewhere for a cycling race bought tickets months earlier for themselves and families. The road race also offered the chance to see them going slowly up box hill rather than just watch them fly away.

There is no way the tt managed to get half the spectators of the road race.