Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Dear Wiggo]

So, in essence that is not very different from the comments Basso made during the TDF. Though Cadel is clever enough to add in the longevity angle, which is a good one. Gilbert 2011 was ridiculously awesome in this sense as well.

Cap n science in agreement:

And Capn was suggesting a 90 day peak (Giro - Tour) will be required to do the double (and intervening) races this year. 2 peaks would do it too.

I am waiting for CADF's 2012 doping report and this year's season. By August we should have sorted the wheat from the chaff. Should be a red hot year.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Evans obviously realised it was possible when he did it himself in 2011.

 

[Ferminal]

No, Evans like Wiggins wasn't in top form in T-A (P-N) or Romandie. Wiggins only hit his absolute best in the Dauphine, for Evans it was the Tour.

 

[ebandit]

pr

Wiggins "loves" Lance. He's "clean". Over "500" tests. Never tested positive.

Wiggins also avoids paying tax.

You can join the dots.

Sorry.

Your hero is not all what he pretends to be.

Not a hog issue. But a Wiggins/Sky problem. I'm sure there PR will give it the perfect spin.

yet hoggie your on full spin..............no wonder members perceive that you

hate brad / team sky..............nigh on 700 posts in this thread alone?

again brad does NOT love lance....just his attitude / success etc....of course

you know this but still wheel it out

how many BIG earners don't try and avoid paying tax?

i see no pretence from brad..........and no relavent facts from yourself

 

[Cycle Chic]

Wiggins and Lance forever

Wiggins became friendly with Armstrong after the Texan returned to competition in 2009. During the 2010 Tour de France, he enthused about the rider, despite the fact that he was under federal investigation at the time. “I love him,” Wiggins told the Guardian. “I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense. Even his strongest critics have benefitted from him. I don't think this sport will ever realise what he's brought it or how big he's made it.”


Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...may-taint-Wiggins-Tour-win.aspx#ixzz2Hkv2D7TX

and from Paris-Nice

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/mar/11/bradley-wiggins-wins-paris-nice

Lance Armstrong warned me recently not to burn too many matches for July. It's certainly a long trail."

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Is it Froome's rise? (if so what about Hesjedal's Giro win?)

Again, non-evidence of doping is not equivalent to evidence of non-doping, so no claim is being made that Sky is clean. Just asking what is specific to them.

Actually, many claims have been made that Sky is clean.

Anyhow, did you seriously compare Hesjedal's Giro win to Froome's rise in the coming out of nowhere stakes? I underrated Hesjedal because he has quietly accumulated his palmarès, but to compare his ascent to Froome's meteoric rise is insulting to the Canadian in extremis.

Hesjedal's been accumulating top 10s in stage races for a few years now, from 4th in Catalunya back in 2006 to 8th in Tirreno 2008, won a mountain stage of the Vuelta in 2009, and while 2010 was a surprising breakout, he prepared for that unexpected 7th in the Tour by coming 6th at Catalunya and 5th at California, and was picking up top 10s in hilly Classics and other one-day races all year. 2011 might have been disappointing but he still managed top 10s in País Vasco and California. While you may be suspicious of his late-career development (almost all of his best results have come from 29 onwards, like Wiggins), this Giro win was the culmination of three and a half years of building results.

Froome was not. Ryder Hesjedal wasn't about to lose his contract when he turned into Ryder the GT winner, he was a guy with several years of bankable results. Froome was a guy who had shown a bit of promise three years previous, but for a variety of reasons had neither capitalised on it nor shown progress, and in fact his CQ scores and race results were going in the opposite direction, until suddenly, abracadabra, he's losing GTs only because of a) bonus seconds, and b) his team not allowing him to ride his own race.

Santiago Pérez finished 4th in Romandie '02, 6th in the Setmana Catalana '03, 7th in Aragón '04 and 7th in a Tour de Suisse mountain stage as preparation for his breakout at the '04 Vuelta. Bernhard Kohl was 7th in the Österreich-Rundfahrt '05, 5th in '06, 3rd in the '06 Dauphiné and 6th in the '08 Bayern-Rundfahrt before he 'came out of nowhere' in the 2008 Tour as if a rider who's been on the podium at the Dauphiné can be considered a scrub the way Froome was prior to the 2011 Vuelta. Ezequiel Mosquera finished 7th in the Volta a Portugal back in '04, moved to Kaiku for '05 where he was top 10 of the Ruta del Sol, Vuelta a Murcía, Volta a Catalunya and Vuelta a Burgos, and won a stage of the Vuelta a la Rioja. He followed that up in '06 with another top 10 at Burgos and one in the Giro del Trentino before his breakout at the 2007 Vuelta.

Those are three of the biggest 'out of nowhere' transformations of the last ten years, and they all had a better palmarès than Chris Froome before their breakout tour, and they all ended the same way. Ryder Hesjedal doesn't belong on that list.

 

[The Hitch]

Actually, many claims have been made that Sky is clean.

Anyhow, did you seriously compare Hesjedal's Giro win to Froome's rise in the coming out of nowhere stakes? I underrated Hesjedal because he has quietly accumulated his palmarès, but to compare his ascent to Froome's meteoric rise is insulting to the Canadian in extremis.

Hesjedal's been accumulating top 10s in stage races for a few years now, from 4th in Catalunya back in 2006 to 8th in Tirreno 2008, won a mountain stage of the Vuelta in 2009, and while 2010 was a surprising breakout, he prepared for that unexpected 7th in the Tour by coming 6th at Catalunya and 5th at California, and was picking up top 10s in hilly Classics and other one-day races all year. 2011 might have been disappointing but he still managed top 10s in País Vasco and California. While you may be suspicious of his late-career development (almost all of his best results have come from 29 onwards, like Wiggins), this Giro win was the culmination of three and a half years of building results.

Froome was not. Ryder Hesjedal wasn't about to lose his contract when he turned into Ryder the GT winner, he was a guy with several years of bankable results. Froome was a guy who had shown a bit of promise three years previous, but for a variety of reasons had neither capitalised on it nor shown progress, and in fact his CQ scores and race results were going in the opposite direction, until suddenly, abracadabra, he's losing GTs only because of a) bonus seconds, and b) his team not allowing him to ride his own race.

Santiago Pérez finished 4th in Romandie '02, 6th in the Setmana Catalana '03, 7th in Aragón '04 and 7th in a Tour de Suisse mountain stage as preparation for his breakout at the '04 Vuelta. Bernhard Kohl was 7th in the Österreich-Rundfahrt '05, 5th in '06, 3rd in the '06 Dauphiné and 6th in the '08 Bayern-Rundfahrt before he 'came out of nowhere' in the 2008 Tour as if a rider who's been on the podium at the Dauphiné can be considered a scrub the way Froome was prior to the 2011 Vuelta. Ezequiel Mosquera finished 7th in the Volta a Portugal back in '04, moved to Kaiku for '05 where he was top 10 of the Ruta del Sol, Vuelta a Murcía, Volta a Catalunya and Vuelta a Burgos, and won a stage of the Vuelta a la Rioja. He followed that up in '06 with another top 10 at Burgos and one in the Giro del Trentino before his breakout at the 2007 Vuelta.

Those are three of the biggest 'out of nowhere' transformations of the last ten years, and they all had a better palmarès than Chris Froome before their breakout tour, and they all ended the same way. Ryder Hesjedal doesn't belong on that list.

Surely wiggins 134th to 4th was a far bigger out of nowhere transformation than any other those.

 

[ebandit]

claim

Actually, many claims have been made that Sky is clean.

greatest claim is from team sky...............here most claim that team sky

are doping.................................but nothing that has yet truly stuck

suggestions but nothing decisive

where claims are made it is only to be expected that others may question

the veracity of such claims

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

No, Evans like Wiggins wasn't in top form in T-A (P-N) or Romandie. Wiggins only hit his absolute best in the Dauphine, for Evans it was the Tour.

If Wiggins hadn't crashed out in 2011 he would have won that Tour as well, I am pretty sure of it. He didn't have the SKY Postal Train but he would have sucked wheels and killed everyone off in the TT's. He put Cadel on more than a minute at the Dauphinee...

A great text.

Man, you have a lot of patience, trying to explain over and over and over the quite obvious. Chapeau.

 

[ebandit]

?

When did Brad and Saugy meet?

of course the ? should be.........................has team sky had guidance from

any member of staff from a testing facility?

team sky met with tdf organisers.........has any other team?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Surely wiggins 134th to 4th was a far bigger out of nowhere transformation than any other those.

It was, but I was conflating Froome's improvements with riders whose improvements were less stellar, were considered to have similarly come from nowhere, and who were dopers.

But you're right, adding the Wiggins transformation into there makes the case more tenuous. That all these other riders have transformations into GT contenders that are surprises, and they turn out to have been inevitably due to doping... but the two guys who have had even bigger sudden transformations both come from the same country and are on the same team. That doesn't ring any alarm bells at all!

Wiggins is harder to judge than the likes of Kohl, Pérez and Mosquera though because of his split track/road focus in cycles before then, with 2008 being obviously one of his most track-focused years. Then again, they were all guys who all obviously knew how to climb long before their breakout even if their technique wasn't perfect (Kohl). Froome therefore belongs with those guys, because he had shown glimpses of being able to climb to a decent level back in 2008. Wiggins apparently learnt everything between August 2008 and May 2009.

 

[will10]

If Wiggins hadn't crashed out in 2011 he would have won that Tour as well, I am pretty sure of it. He didn't have the SKY Postal Train but he would have sucked wheels and killed everyone off in the TT's. He put Cadel on more than a minute at the Dauphinee...


Man, you have a lot of patience, trying to explain over and over and over the quite obvious. Chapeau.

Even Wiggins 2011 had nothing on Wiggins 2012. Plus there was only 42km of ITT in '11.

 

[Alphabet]

If Wiggins hadn't crashed out in 2011 he would have won that Tour as well, I am pretty sure of it. He didn't have the SKY Postal Train but he would have sucked wheels and killed everyone off in the TT's. He put Cadel on more than a minute at the Dauphinee...

He would have lost large time on the Galibier and Alpe d'Huez, I think, because of the way the stages were ridden. We've yet to see him respond to a Pantani-style multi-col attack, and I don't believe that even 2012 Wiggins would be able to bring back an attack like that solo.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

He would have lost large time on the Galibier and Alpe d'Huez, I think, because of the way the stages were ridden. We've yet to see him respond to a Pantani-style multi-col attack, and I don't believe that even 2012 Wiggins would be able to bring back an attack like that solo.

Uber wheel sucker Evans did it last year when baby - Schleck went for the Pantani - style attack if I recall correctly.

Plus there was only 42km of ITT in '11

That's why I pointed to the Dauphinee TT where he put Cadel on more than a minute. Wheelsuck the wheelsucker and kill him off in the TT.

He would have been very close, I do think so.

 

[cineteq]

If Wiggins hadn't crashed out in 2011 he would have won that Tour as well, I am pretty sure of it. He didn't have the SKY Postal Train but he would have sucked wheels and killed everyone off in the TT's.

If anything, Evans would have won more comfortably having Wiggo as 'domestique', in the stages that Schleck and Contador attacked.

 

[will10]

Uber wheel sucker Evans did it last year when baby - Schleck went for the Pantani - style attack if I recall correctly.
That's why I pointed to the Dauphinee TT where he put Cadel on more than a minute. Wheelsuck the wheelsucker and kill him off in the TT.

He would have been very close, I do think so.

Look how the gap closed between Martin and Cadel from the Dauphine to the Tour. Cadel timed his peak spot on, you're assuming Wiggo would've done the same (which he nailed in 2012 but messed up big time in 2010).

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Look how the gap closed between Martin and Cadel from the Dauphine to the Tour. Cadel timed his peak spot on, you're assuming Wiggo would've done the same (which he nailed in 2012 but messed up big time in 2010).

Cadel rode the TT of his life, with yellow in sight, with relatively low pressure [in comparison to 2008, Sastre being a better TT'er everyone thinks of him and Cadel not able to handle the pressure] as he was TT'ing against known anti - TT - specialist baby Schleck.

And, perhaps had the better peak performance of the two, I will give you that. It is not impossible. Nevertheless, my assumption is the two of them would have been very close.

If anything, Evans would have won more comfortably having Wiggo as 'domestique', in the stages that Schleck and Contador attacked.

A 'Sir' doesn't work for an Aussie

The Contador attack was harmless.

 

[will10]

Cadel rode the TT of his life, with yellow in sight, with relatively low pressure [in comparison to 2008, Sastre being a better TT'er everyone thinks of him and Cadel not able to handle the pressure] as he was TT'ing against known anti - TT - specialist baby Schleck.

And, perhaps had the better peak performance of the two, I will give you that. It is not impossible. Nevertheless, my assumption is the two of them would have been very close.A 'Sir' doesn't work for an Aussie

The Contador attack was harmless.

I think Wiggo could've been competitive in 2011 but Cadel rode the perfect race and would have been very tough to beat. They were virtually at s.t. after the TTT and I don't see Wiggins staying with Cadel for the rest of that Tour in the mountains. Tony M. was virtually unbeatable in ITTs in 2011 and no-one was closer to him all season than Cadel at the Tour. Wiggins would have to have been at that level or better to win the Tour as there's nowhere in that race he'd have gained time on Cadel prior to the ITT.

Wiggins climbing and TTing in 2011 building up to the Tour, although still very impressive, was still a step down from his 2012 level.

 

[cineteq]

A 'Sir' doesn't work for an Aussie

Good point.

The Contador attack was harmless.

In hindsight.

 

[Parrot23]

We've yet to see him respond to a Pantani-style multi-col attack, and I don't believe that even 2012 Wiggins would be able to bring back an attack like that solo.

+1. I don't think we've yet seen him bring back a really big attack alone. I think that fact alone might say a lot to both sides of the debate.

Any gap closing he's had to do has been iterative, one step at a time with teammates...might I say "marginal", like the pawn game in chess

It's a bit like Steinitz's positional, marginal gains style in chess: "Although Steinitz became "world number one" by winning in the all-out attacking style that was common in the 1860s, he unveiled in 1873 a new positional style of play and demonstrated that it was superior to the previous style." His play was about incremental gains, positioning versus all out attacking, say per a Contador, or a Lance (crush the TT's and do one big attack in the mountains, and you win the Tour, he's said).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Steinitz

 

[Mellow Velo]

Evans rode a flawless Tour in 2011, both in terms of staying out of trouble and peaking.
Given Sky 2011 were not Sky 2012, Wiggins would have had major difficulty coping with both Schleck and Contador's early Alpine attacks, being as "off script" as they were.

Wiggins would probably have made the podium, but Cadel had the top step absolutely nailed.

 

[del1962]

I think Wiggo could've been competitive in 2011 but Cadel rode the perfect race and would have been very tough to beat. They were virtually at s.t. after the TTT and I don't see Wiggins staying with Cadel for the rest of that Tour in the mountains. Tony M. was virtually unbeatable in ITTs in 2011 and no-one was closer to him all season than Cadel at the Tour. Wiggins would have to have been at that level or better to win the Tour as there's nowhere in that race he'd have gained time on Cadel prior to the ITT.

Wiggins climbing and TTing in 2011 building up to the Tour, although still very impressive, was still a step down from his 2012 level.

Wiggins himself has said that he was less confident going into the 2011 tour compared to the 2012 tour. We don't know how he would have done had he not crashed but I agree we cannot just assume 2012 form.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I think Wiggo could've been competitive in 2011 but Cadel rode the perfect race and would have been very tough to beat. They were virtually at s.t. after the TTT and I don't see Wiggins staying with Cadel for the rest of that Tour in the mountains. Tony M. was virtually unbeatable in ITTs in 2011 and no-one was closer to him all season than Cadel at the Tour. Wiggins would have to have been at that level or better to win the Tour as there's nowhere in that race he'd have gained time on Cadel prior to the ITT.

Wiggins climbing and TTing in 2011 building up to the Tour, although still very impressive, was still a step down from his 2012 level.

Were there boni seconds last year?

Indeed, Cadel rode impecable [spelling?].

 

[sublimit]

Wheres that loser Dear Wiggo? or did he change his name again lol

 

[Parrot23]

Great avatar, Sublimit

The Tour de France lion has been found..............in Wiggo's backyard.

Ha, ha! http://www.thestar.com/news/world/a...ike-lion-sets-off-panic-911-calls-in-virginia

Wiggins is the "Labradoodle" of the CN clinic and many posters, not quite sure if he's a lion or a poodle, with those "burns". 100's and 100's of reported sighting/postings by various posters alone.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr........ Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr......