Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Ryo Hazuki]

Thomas Dekker was 21 when Rabo and the team Doctor (Leinders) forced drugs on him.

lol. you can't read can you? thomas said he was impatient to do well in gt's and asked for doping himself, where exactly is the "force" part by leinders?

 

[Tinman]

Thats what I cannot understand too.

When I mentioned Leinders to a friends Facebook Status the other day his mate piped up, after some exchanges on why I though Sky were dodgy his retort was "You're just one of them trolls"

Human sociology issue. Not many people can put together facts/data/observations and use the subsequent insights to conclude the big picture or even harder, predict the future. So it becomes easier to "follow", follow the mass media and general herds.

 

[Joachim]

Your quote implies that he sought it out and wasn't discouraged, not that it was forced on him.

 

[thehog]

lol. you can't read can you? thomas said he was impatient to do well in gt's and asked for doping himself, where exactly is the "force" part by leinders?

Splitting hairs will get you nowhere. He was 21 years old. Leinders was a Doctor. An older Doctor. He forced EPO on Dekker. He took advantage of his youth. I'm sorry. But pretending that's its "ok" is sick.

It was easy to be influenced, doping was widespread,”

 

[Froome19]

I have to put my hand up and say as more information starts to emerge, obviously unofficial and at the 'he said she said' stage, about Leinders role at Rabobank you have to say questions need to be answered, as Kimmage has said about. I tweeted Daniel Freibe about, who usually replies but got a stoney silence. I find Wiggins reaction to the LA affair puzzling, and the way he is dealing with Kimmage. I can see how people view it as evasive and suspicious.

As patron he needs to accept the responsibility it brings, by not doing so and giving these lazy comments, and the way he counter-attacks Kimmage, he opens himself up to more accusations.

It's clear something was rotten in Denmark oops the Netherlands involving Leinders and the Rabobank team, it may be Brailsford was naive or had the wool pulled over his eyes by Leinders but they should have done better background checks. This is why employers ask for references. You need a good doctor, ask his previous employers about him, simple. It's how Sky pretend the whistle was blown and had him shipped out the back door.

A massive, massive own goal for me. Sky are hoisting themselves by their own petard.

You can argue the toss if you like, like how nothing is confirmed with Leinders, nothing had stuck so far, but reading about riders talking about him adminstering EPO is enough for me, they have no reason to make it up. Leinders is as dirty as they come, and he worked for Sky.

You're a fool if you deny that. And I know I have in the past, because I did not know the extent he was involved in Rabobank's doping (and lets face it, no-one really did, just knew he was implicated. He's even escaped a mention on Dopeology).

Until I know more about Leinder's role at the team I will find it hard to follow them with any conviction.

So OPQS It is then. Oops

Once again a tonne of own goals for Sky. But most of this post is about their failures when it comes to PR.

I think you are merging the two together. Sky's PR could be linked to their doping programme but it is unlikely especially as with how careful Sky would be if they did have to cover up doping, remember this is the "ultimate organised team", ok they may have slipped on the ice a few times when it came to their PR, but you would think they would be prepared for anything when it comes to their doping programme.

I may and possibly should actually read more in to Wiggins and Brailsford's responses but after seeing what posters like Hog and Sniper read into them I see you could really read anything into them if you really want to.

 

[Joachim]

Hog's quote implies that Dekker sought doping out and wasn't discouraged, not that it was forced on him. Nor does Dekker say explicitly who influenced him. By saying it was 'widespread' implies it wasnt a single person.

Another case of people trying so hard to make something fit what they want it to.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

It's human nature to want to believe. And some take a more vocal position than others. They are great when they come around, if they hang around. So good on Jimmy for not just disappearing. The only ones that don't eventually work it out are the shills. They just disappear when the fight is lost. As per Lance.

There is lots to be suspicious about Sky and it is getting worse but when you have posters like Hog who just makes stuff up to further his own argument it does not further anything.

Why is it when Libertine posts being sceptical (at best) about Sky that people that are 'Sky fans' praise these posts? Because it is reasoned, well thought out and does not try to bait people.

 

[Joachim]

follow the mass media and general herds.

What like this herd? What is the minority view on this particular thread?

Its like the Scientologists in here. Word of advice guys, if a stranger in the street offers you a personality test, dont take it

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

There is lots to be suspicious about Sky and it is getting worse but when you have posters like Hog who just makes stuff up to further his own argument it does not further anything.

Why is it when Libertine posts being sceptical (at best) about Sky that people that are 'Sky fans' praise these posts? Because it is reasoned, well thought out and does not try to bait people.

I must say, people like him, benotti and others are a good reason to come here, as they have lost any touch with reality and I'm just glad there's an online place for them like this.

 

[Tinman]

Maybe time for the British Cycling federation to investigate Leinders' links to British Rabo riders? The name Wiggins rings a bell...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-belgian-federation-to-investigate-dr-leinders

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Contractors aren't as thoroughly background checked as full time employees, Leinders was interviewed by Sky's medical director Steve Peters prior to being to being taken on though.

How convenient! There are 3 employees and everyone else is a contractor. So we can wash our hands of complicit hiring.

 

[thehog]

I do get the impression there is a lot you don't understand.

So who has asked for the discussion to be shut down?

Hi Pedro.

I understand the history of doping in cycling very well. 23 years of doping has littered the sport. At times brought it to its knees and skewed results for years.

We should talk about it. Truth and reconciliation is the way forward.

Sky hired a notorious doping Doctor known by other Sky employees of what he did at Rabobank. That's worth talking about. Especially after USADA/Lance.

Your personal attack on me it's just another way to stop the discussion.

I understand very well.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

SKy apologists are as bad a@@ as the wonderboy apologists, lets hope it will not take 13 years before they see the truth, for their sake.

 

[Joachim]

But no answer to Pedro's question...

 

[Joachim]

Hi Pedro.

I understand the history of doping in cycling very well. 23 years of doping has littered the sport. At times brought it to its knees and skewed results for years.

We should talk about it. Truth and reconciliation is the way forward.

Sky hired a notorious doping Doctor known by other Sky employees of what he did at Rabobank. That's worth talking about. Especially after USADA/Lance.

Your personal attack on me it's just another way to stop the discussion.

I understand very well.

But no answer to Pedro's simple question...

 

[Tinman]

Maybe time for the British Cycling Federation to open their own enquiry into British riders' links to Leinders. It's not as if British cycling hasn't had a boon year... And we need more enquiries.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-belgian-federation-to-investigate-dr-leinders

 

[Caruut]

But no answer to Pedro's simple question...

Perhaps if you read his post all the way through you would find the answer. He quite clearly says that, in his mind, the personal attacks on him constitute an attempt to shut down the discussion. Whether or not you agree, it's still an answer.

Does it not strike you as a bit hypocritical to be calling out others for not answering questions?

 

[Tinman]

What like this herd? What is the minority view on this particular thread?

Its like the Scientologists in here. Word of advice guys, if a stranger in the street offers you a personality test, dont take it

You quoted the least relevant part of my quote to suit your own form of Scientology. The relevant part was:

Not many people can put together facts/data/observations and use the subsequent insights to conclude the big picture or even harder, predict the future.

And don't forget the other one on shills...

The only ones that don't eventually work it out are the shills. They just disappear when the fight is lost.

 

[Joachim]

@ Caruut What personal attacks? Everyone has been pretty polite. You can't call asking questions a 'personal attack'.

Maybe you think asking questions is shutting down debate?

As for your question, it is several pages and several hours back. I'm afraid I've lost my train of thought on that one and I can't face going back. If you'd provided a timely clarification then I would have done, but I appreciate that you, as well as I, have probably got other things to be getting on with outside of this forum

 

[Mellow Velo]

A lot of LOL tonight.
Hoggie has been on sparkling form.
More chum in the water than in the average supermarket.

FACTS I have learnt tonight.
a) Doping first appeared in 1991.
b) The age of consent in the Netherlands is 22
c) Simple questions are actually personal attacks in disguise.



Look beyond the Hogmonay and we find some accord.
It seems that everyone agrees that Leinder's was a massive mistake: a huge, stinky turd in the middle of Sky's PR clean plate.

 

[Caruut]

@ Caruut What personal attacks? Everyone has been pretty polite. You can't call asking questions a 'personal attack'.

Maybe you think asking questions is shutting down debate?

Well a lot of posters treat Hog as some kind of nutcase. I guess he sees those as personal attacks. I'm not saying they are or aren't, merely that Hog gave an answer, of sorts.

 

[Joachim]

You quoted the least relevant part of my quote to suit your own form of Scientology.

I think you'll find I'm one of the few with an open mind. You guys made yours up way before any of this Leinders stuff.

And don't forget the other one on shills...

Shills? Ive heard this term bandied about here. I've also had people directly of being in the paid employ of Team Sky How can you seriously use a term like 'shill' in this context when you have such paranoia going on here (not you personally, I hasten to add)

 

[Benotti69]

It seems that everyone agrees that Leinder's was a massive mistake: a huge, stinky turd in the middle of Sky's PR clean plate.

And it only took 11,830 posts for the fanboys to figure it out

 

[sniper]

Look beyond the Hogmonay and we find some accord.
It seems that everyone agrees that Leinder's was a massive mistake: a huge, stinky turd in the middle of Sky's PR clean plate.

no mistake.
a calculated, necessary risk.
it's not easy to find someone with a portfolio like Leinders.

 

[Joachim]

Well a lot of posters treat Hog as some kind of nutcase. I guess he sees those as personal attacks. I'm not saying they are or aren't, merely that Hog gave an answer, of sorts.

His accusations of personal attack tonight are a deflection tactic. He is on a wind-up, it is clearly a well-honed approach.... vague insinuations, then a retreat back into the ether as if he is having a conversation purely with himself. (He self-quotes too )

It's harmless fun for him, and to be fair he is polite. I got sucked into a mud-slinging match with him once, which I regret..he doesn't deserve that, but nor does he deserve to be heeded.