Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Libertine Seguros]

it's actually much easier to just buy talent and throw $ at the sport. And laugh all you want at marginal gains, but even the French are starting to buy into that.

Or to just buy people who've achieved nothing in their careers then watch them magically transform into capable GT candidates the second their contract isn't going to be renewed, then claim that you knew they always had that ability? Look at the Sky roster's development over time. This wasn't BMC. They didn't just go out there and buy the best. They bought guys who became the best while at Sky. Now it is noteworthy that the improvement was far from uniform. Guys like Froome languished doing sweet FA for two years before suddenly leaping forward, guys with history like Rogers made steps up in performance level, but other guys like Löfkvist stagnated and regressed horribly in their time at the team.

Sniper insinuated that Leinders was hired to run the Sky doping program because of the fear a rider may otherwise die. The last linked rider death to doping was 2003.

Was Neves really never linked to doping? The police raids on team HQ that led to 9 of the riders being banned followed almost directly on from that, I could have sworn that doping had been mentioned in relation to his death.

 

[mastersracer]

I am sorry, what should I ask?

Perhaps, why would Sky hire a doping doctor to join their team?
I didn't hear Rasmussen mention Dr. Leinders skills in the saddle sore area.

The doctors who have been implicated in doping have been more likely to kill or seriously hurt a rider than safeguard their health. If you were genuinely concerned about a rider not dying, the last thing you'd want is a Fuentes or Leinders near them administering a doping program. For that matter, most of the positives have been the result of careless handling by these doctors.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The doctors who have been implicated in doping have been more likely to kill or seriously hurt a rider than safeguard their health. If you were genuinely concerned about a rider not dying, the last thing you'd want is a Fuentes or Leinders near them administering a doping program. For that matter, most of the positives have been the result of careless handling by these doctors.

That's because most of the Doctors implicated in doping are nothing more than quacks. Leinders has been implicated in doping.

Please show me a Doctor who would recommend EPO, or blood transfusions to healthy people?

 

[mastersracer]

Or to just buy people who've achieved nothing in their careers then watch them magically transform into capable GT candidates the second their contract isn't going to be renewed, then claim that you knew they always had that ability? Look at the Sky roster's development over time. This wasn't BMC. They didn't just go out there and buy the best. They bought guys who became the best while at Sky. Now it is noteworthy that the improvement was far from uniform. Guys like Froome languished doing sweet FA for two years before suddenly leaping forward, guys with history like Rogers made steps up in performance level, but other guys like Löfkvist stagnated and regressed horribly in their time at the team.

Was Neves really never linked to doping? The police raids on team HQ that led to 9 of the riders being banned followed almost directly on from that, I could have sworn that doping had been mentioned in relation to his death.

Well, they stole Wiggins from Garmin after his 2009 Tour de France. They bought a sprinter in Cavendish. As for Rogers, I would consider a multiple world ITT champion and a top ten TdF finisher to be buying talent. And they have acquired Dombrowski. Another reason why JV accuses them of talent hoarding. Re Froome, one can argue about his early results, but it's just wrong to suppose he didn't show raw talent early on in 2008. He was a cheap bet on British talent.

Re Neves, I don't believe there was anything more than speculation that his heart attack was due to doping. Was there ever a report on his death determining a link?

 

[The Hitch]

anyone who seriously puts forward the idea that Sky won the Tour by buying all the best riders, is either a troll or ***. Especially if they have been in this discussion long enough to have seen this pathetic argument destroyed without response a million times.

 

[JRanton]

"I have a lot of faith in Geert Leinders"

Wiggins in his book:

''We need guys like Geert Leinders''

 

[The Hitch]

Wiggins in his book:

''We need guys like Geert Leinders''

Is that for real?

 

[sniper]

perhaps he saw jesus after leaving rabo?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Wiggins in his book:

''We need guys like Geert Leinders''

Which pithy tome? Oh lemme google...

 

[del1962]

Is that for real?

He said something about Leinders warning young cyclists against doping because Leinders was aware of it in the past, saying we need people like Leinders to warn them againt doping.

 

[thehog]

He said something about Leinders warning young cyclists against doping because Leinders was aware of it in the past, saying we need people like Leinders to warn them againt doping.

But I thought Brailsford had checked out his past and it was clean?

Now he's warning cyclists about what went on?

Huh?

Dr. Blood injecting EPO in to 22 year old Dekker has now become Tony Robbins just for Sky?

Don't call me Surely.

 

[sniper]

https://twitter.com/PaulKimmage/statuses/306851098587701248

 

[Netserk]

https://twitter.com/PaulKimmage/statuses/306851098587701248

That is gold

 

[Dr. Maserati]

He said something about Leinders warning young cyclists against doping because Leinders was aware of it in the past, saying we need people like Leinders to warn them againt doping.

Hmmm, when you say Leinders was "aware of"...
Maybe Rasmussen let something slip to Leinders that there was a doping program at Rabobank while he was helping him reinfuse his blood?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

He said something about Leinders warning young cyclists against doping because Leinders was aware of it in the past, saying we need people like Leinders to warn them againt doping.

A bit of an odd statement. Everybody who watched cycling in the 90s was aware of doping. Is Leinders just blessed with superior powers of persuasion that nobody else could warn young cyclists against doping so convincingly, in much the same way as Sebastian Lang thought Stefan Schumacher's response to the discovery of the CERA test was a bit worrying, but Bernhard Kohl, the superior thespian, did not raise any such concerns?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

A bit of an odd statement. Everybody who watched cycling in the 90s was aware of doping. Is Leinders just blessed with superior powers of persuasion that nobody else could warn young cyclists against doping so convincingly, in much the same way as Sebastian Lang thought Stefan Schumacher's response to the discovery of the CERA test was a bit worrying, but Bernhard Kohl, the superior thespian, did not raise any such concerns?

Hang on - what would he be warning them about? The dangers? Leinders killed someone? Or made them sick? Not that I have heard.

So what exactly is he warning them about? That it makes you go faster? Or that you might get caught?

And given Leinders helped prevent riders from getting caught (are there any Leinders / Rabo riders caught?) it would seem to me he's warning them to be careful with their doping, to avoid getting caught.

Please.

Tell me what Leinders, the doping doc of Rabobank is warning these new, young riders about in regards to doping.

Otherwise, the conversation looks like this:

* don't dope!
* you won't necessarily get caught (armstrong, menchov, rasmussen)
* you will ride faster (armstrong, menchov, rasmussen)
* if you do it properly and carefully, you won't get sick (menchov, rasmussen)
* ???
* PROFIT!

 

[del1962]

A bit of an odd statement. Everybody who watched cycling in the 90s was aware of doping. Is Leinders just blessed with superior powers of persuasion that nobody else could warn young cyclists against doping so convincingly, in much the same way as Sebastian Lang thought Stefan Schumacher's response to the discovery of the CERA test was a bit worrying, but Bernhard Kohl, the superior thespian, did not raise any such concerns?

Here is what Wiggins said in his book

Another issue that came up during the Tour was that Geert Leinders, a doctor who had been working with Rabo in 2007 when Michael Rasmussen was sacked for doping aand T Dekker failed a drugs test, had been employed by Sky for eighty days a year in 2011 and 2012. I'd rather have him with the team than a doctor fresh out of medical school, who has come straight into it. I've had no sense of anything untoward with him. He is totally committed to what we beleive in a clean sport. He was there simply as a doctor for us because he's been around cycling a long time and he knows the sport from top to bottom.

It's vital that people like that are involved now because they have seen how it used to be and they can remind today's riders of how cycling was. He's seen the problems that were there in the past; he never agreed with what was going on, and was one of the sane people who were in the sport at the time. We need guys like Geert Leinders because on top of being a bloody good doctor with a heap of experience, guy like him can play a role, explaining to riderss lile Ben Swift, Luke Rowe and Peter Kennaugh - young lads who are determined to race clean - what it was like in the past and how lucky they are to be racing now.

You can read that as Sky being duped by Leinders because Leinders obviously didn't not agree with what was going on.

 

[thehog]

That is gold

Rare gold.

Wiggo "My Time": "We need guys like Geert Leinders because on top of being a bloody good doctor with a heap of experience, guys like him...

Guys who can inject a 22 year old cyclist without thinking twice about it. We need guys like him.

 

[sniper]

he's probably warning the new generation against widespread intolerance in cycling.
"zero tolerance has no place in cycling".

 

[The Hitch]

perhaps he saw jesus after leaving rabo?

The rider behind, was told he was joining a clean team

And he sees lienders coming out of the sky car with a sky shirt.


Cant believe his eyes.

 

[Cyivel]

thehog, I remember reading ITT a bit ago that you hadn't made your mind up on whether Sky were doping.

Have you come to a conclusion now?

Thanks brother.

 

[JRanton]

But I thought Brailsford had checked out his past and it was clean?

Now he's warning cyclists about what went on?

Huh?

Dr. Blood injecting EPO in to 22 year old Dekker has now become Tony Robbins just for Sky?

Don't call me Surely.

Let's not forget that the reason Leinders reportedly left Rabobank was due to their zero tolerance policy and that he didn't believe such a policy belonged in cycling. We're then supposed to believe that just 12 months later, the ''highly recommended'' Dr Leinders shows up at Team Sky, supposedly a zero tolerance ''clean'' team, has an epiphany and starts warning young riders about doping.

I have to ask, does anyone seriously believe that to be the case and does anyone seriously believe that Brailsford and Sky weren't fully aware of Leinders' past doping history when they decided to hire him?

If you do believe that, then would you mind dropping me a PM with your bank account details and pin numbers. There's a Nigerain bloke I know who has an extremely interesting investment opportunity.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

This also from My Time - from the Amazon summary. I was not aware of this at all:

A full-length, in-depth and intimate memoir by Bradley Wiggins charting his journey to become the first Briton ever to win the Tour de France and his country's most decorated Olympian.
On July 22, 2012 Bradley Wiggins made history as the first British cyclist to win the Tour de France. Ten days later at the London Olympic Games he won the time trial to become his country's most decorated Olympian. In an instant 'Wiggo', the kid from Kilburn, was a national hero.

Two years previously, however, Wiggins had been staring into the abyss. His much-hyped attempt to conquer the 2010 Tour de France had ended in public humiliation. Poor results and indifferent form left him facing the sack from Team Sky

 

[mastersracer]

anyone who seriously puts forward the idea that Sky won the Tour by buying all the best riders, is either a troll or ***. Especially if they have been in this discussion long enough to have seen this pathetic argument destroyed without response a million times.

Take it up with JV, whose opinion is worth a lot more than yours:

"prevent Froome/Wiggo drama in the future? Establish equitable budget limits and active transfer market. Avoids talent"hoarding"by rich teams"

Jonathan Vaughters Jul 19/2012

 

[thehog]

thehog, I remember reading ITT a bit ago that you hadn't made your mind up on whether Sky were doping.

Have you come to a conclusion now?

Thanks.

I think Sky should hire Ferrari so he can warn them about how cycling used to be...

Are Sky doping?

Yes. 100% Sky are doping.

Without a shadow of doubt.

Or maybe e question should be.... are they clean?

I don't know.