Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Benotti69]

Ah so Eddy and other cyclists deserve anything that they get, gotcha. Cycling's past means they are fair game for 'hard' questions. Of course by saying that you acknowledge that Kimmage was being classless, but that it's ok because it's Sky.

As for getting over myself, it's good to have standards. Try it some time.

If they dont like it leave the sport, plenty have, or do something to change it. Support journalists like kimmage in their work to expose the doping. Nah easier to shoot the messenger a la Armstrong.

What is this cycling's past?. At leat 2 riders were popped this year for epo. A big shipment of epo was apprehended in Spain a few weeks ago.

Take your head out of your ar$e otherwise you are in the clinic to obfuscate sky threads.

The sport is still dirty. Being polite and indirect is not going to change that. Sky are being hypocrites so deserve to be questioned. I dont see anywhere that Kimmage was being classless. If anything asking hard questions shows big cajones and the class to be courageous enough to ask hard questions.

Bet if he was asking them of Lefervre or Riis, you wouldn't even comment in that thread, but your Sky love keeps you here obfuscating to the best of your liited abilities.

 

[The Hitch]

Whatever..

hang on a sec. you are the one that always moans about how some (though of course you always blame all) sceptics attack Walsh for his positions, citing it as evidence that the entire case against sky is flawed. Yet here you are behaving the EXACT same way towards kimmage. He dares ask a question of sky and in come the ad hominems.

so aren't you by your own logic discrediting sky's defense by taking that position?


How can you in your right mind critisize people for dressing down Walsh when you behave in exactly the same way when the shoe is on the other foot

 

[Benotti69]

Yeah Aaron Brown is a huge fan of Kimmage

Showing your class Jimmy chapeau, chapeau.

 

[Benotti69]

Yes, Kimmages job is to get the truth out there. So what happens? His colleges have to have a second meeting after the press release so he can explain what he actual meant? Is that a clear message?

His intentions are right and in desperate need but he should ask himself if he think he himself are fulfilling his potential to get the truth out there.

Then again, his awkwardness raises attention.

If this sport and its fans keep shooting messengers like Kimmage, nothing is going to change.

Kimmage's question was pretty easy to understand. Sky have a talent like EBH in their team and he has not improved in the same way as Froome and Wiggins, why not? Brailsford 'master of details' had no answer!

Bet Brailsford wont talk to Kimmage for the rest of the TdF if he can help it.

 

[melkemugg]

If this sport and its fans keep shooting messengers like Kimmage, nothing is going to change.

Kimmage's question was pretty easy to understand. Sky have a talent like EBH in their team and he has not improved in the same way as Froome and Wiggins, why not? Brailsford 'master of details' had no answer!

Bet Brailsford wont talk to Kimmage for the rest of the TdF if he can help it.

If we cant be critical with the people we support then we are sheep ourself. And i really DO support Kimmage with my whole heart. I really do. Its just that i dont think his message is clear when there are articles in norway trying to explain everything. I understand that Kimmage is angry, but he needs to control it better. He should get help for his questions. He needs a strategy.

And I dont think Brailfords got too intimidated by this.

 

[andy1234]

Who would those other journalists, to be generous to them, be? Those who luaded monkeymouth for 7TdF doped wins? Who toed the UCI line?

Sky appear to be asked hard questions for a change and all the dummies are being spat out?

Since when did journalism become a popularity contest?

In case you forgot, $90K plus was donated to the Kimmage fund. I think he has a fan or 2, just because it aint the likes of Fotheringahm, Moore or Seaton means tickety boo.

Journalism aint a popularity contest. But ASO invited him and not Monkeymouth so he is higher than others on some lists.

It wasn't a hard question, just a stupid one, designed to provoke a reaction.

While journalism isn't a popularity contest, doors are simply closed to Kimmage, because its all take and no give. It's his way or no way.
That attitude can work, if there is enough respect from the people you work with, but unfortunately for Kimmage, that isn't the case.

Instead he is left creating minor headlines, desperately trying to stay relevant.

As far as the 90k donated? That's more a sign of how little influence he has, than how much. 90k is embarrassing for someone with level of exposure that he created.
With that much exposure, I could raise that kind of money in a week.

I get why you like him. He represents the dissatisfied, those with no leverage to do something about it.
Unfortunately, he isn't just representing them, he is one of them, and with apparently no political awareness, its going to stay that way.

Also, for the record, Kimmage was this way, before Armstrong even showed up on his radar.

 

[gooner]

So Kimmage was talking in Norwegian talented guy.

If you wish to take that interpretation than I respect that, but I don't. It makes no sense in the article, nor to PKs overall point that EBH has not realised his talent - PK would not query EBH was making big money, but would query why a team would invest heavily for a guy to (relatively) under-perform.

I read the translated bit again and I think he's tying in the money he is being paid and lack of ambition into each other. Firstly he said he was surprised he has stayed at Sky for this long and then mentions he must be getting paid serious money. Following on from this he criticises his mentality as a rider and says he lacks ambition. My reading from this passage was that he was saying that EBH was happy to sit on his big wages while not wanting to push himself to fulfil his ambitions and potential.

Interesting to see what others think of this. It's definitely open to interpretation. I give you that.

 

[Taxus4a]

Kimmage seems a troll.

He asked an stupid question.

His popularity maybe is not so high now... he miss the dark era.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

To think that one well constructed question can rattle the mighty Sky machine is almost laughable.

Perhaps there are too many clowns in the Sky circus.

 

[MatParker117]

To think that one well constructed question can rattle the mighty Sky machine is almost laughable.

Perhaps there are too many clowns in the Sky circus.

Kimmage was being deliberately antagonistic.

 

[zastomito]

And yes, it was putting Eddy down, saying he isn't as good as he should be. You don't think that EBH knows that? There was criticism already this season from an underwhelming classics campaign, he must be feeling the pressure to come good keenly I would expect, and he has the TdF coming up.

If he was to ask EBH that question, why are you not riding like you should with all that money thrown at you, I could see what you're saying although question itself would be legitimate.
However, he is asking Brailsford why the rider with such talent is nowhere near other guys in therms of progress and form. I don't see it as an dig on EBH.

 

[meat puppet]

If he was to ask EBH that question, why are you not riding like you should with all that money thrown at you, I could see what you're saying although question itself would be legitimate.
However, he is asking Brailsford why the rider with such talent is nowhere near other guys in therms of progress and form. I don't see it as an dig on EBH.

Exactly. No plausible reason to spin it any other way.

Love the Brailsford chart of rider potential by the way, good thing it emerged again. Marginal pains, illustrated.

 

[del1962]

Kimmage could learn a thing or two from Dave Walsh

 

[Froome19]

I do think however there were far better questions Kimmage could ask than about EBH. Its a long winded way of questioning the anglophone miracles, that many won't catch on to.

He was not referring to Sky and doping.

 

[Netserk]

Kimmage could learn a thing or two from Dave Walsh

I think it's more the other way around

 

[hrotha]

He was not referring to Sky and doping.

Says you...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Not the slightest clue what you're on about here.

You asked how long it took ME. From the point I saw the kennaugh tweet to reading the story was less thanten minutes. Not from when kennaugh tweeted, from when I SAW kennaughs tweet. The fact it went from tweet to press in just twenty actually backs that up.

It helps if you want to be a pedant not to contradict your own premise.

Indeed I did ask YOU how long it took YOU, because you offered this scenario previously:

Em, yes they did. I was reading an article via google translate within minutes of the Kennagh tweet.

thats why I asked YOU how long, to which you answered "less than 10".....now you are attempting to put a different spin on it.

 

[Froome19]

It has been along time since the sport was classy. Sky are the dominant team for the last 2 years. They have to expect hard questions. EBH cant be upset, he chose a sport where doping has been and is endemic.

Get over yourself.

If you or anyone else had the ability to race at the top level would you take it?
I just don't get how what you said can be justified?

 

[Avoriaz]

Kimmage's question was pretty easy to understand. Sky have a talent like EBH in their team and he has not improved in the same way as Froome and Wiggins, why not? Brailsford 'master of details' had no answer!

And I'm pretty sure this is a question that both Brailsford and EBH have asked of each other over the past year. Personally, I don't think it is true to suggest that EBH hasn't improved - he has, but through diversification in that now he is strong in medium mountains, time trials and classics. Don't forget also, he only just fell short in Flanders this year: had Cancellara attacked later on the climb, EBH may have stayed with him. You can't fault him for not keeping up with Cancellara. Few riders do. I don't think GTs were ever on the table, and he would admit this himself. Perhaps one week stage races.

So it was a good question worthy of being asked. The situation wasn't great, and I really feel for EBH, who was there, don't forget, when Kimmage asked it. That was a little out of order. One on one with Brailsford, fine.

Now Kimmage, good writer that he is, usually has a subtext when it comes to cycling. In this instance, what was it? Is he suggesting Wiggins/Froome leapt over EBH because they are on a programme and EBH isn't? If Sky have a programme, then EBH would definitely be on it: if he has the talent, then he would only need a little (less risky) pick-me-up than the boatloads of pharmaceuticals many believe Froome needs, for example. For a details man like Brailsford that is a no brainer, but conveniently ignored.

I think, perhaps, Kimmage thinks EBH IS NOT on a programme, and he hopes that by flattering him somewhat, and causing some internal strife, that EBH may spill the beans to Kimmage. That could be his long game (though could take a while as Lovkvist for example has said nothing). But his opening gambit was clumsy.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

"So Paul, why is it that other journalists are able to go about their business, without being universally disliked, by just about anyone they have come into contact with?"

"Don't you think you may get better results, by displaying just a semblance of social skill?"

Just asking....

So, according to you PK is "universally disliked" - you might want to broaden your social circle.

Yet again you focus on personality (& make up stuff) which unless you are looking to date Paul has nothing to do with anything.
If a journo is more focussed on being "liked" than being respected for the job they do than their objectivity and ability to do their job is compromised.

 

[Carstenbf]

From today's article (link)

Riis, nicknamed Mr. 60% for his alleged sky-high blood haematocrit while racing ...

Put a smile on my face to go with the morning coffee.

 

[andy1234]

So, according to you PK is "universally disliked" - you might want to broaden your social circle.

Yet again you focus on personality (& make up stuff) which unless you are looking to date Paul has nothing to do with anything.
If a journo is more focussed on being "liked" than being respected for the job they do than their objectivity and ability to do their job is compromised.

My social circle includes past and present continental and domestic pros, olympic and pro tour coaches and team managers, sports journalists, leisure cyclists, amateur racers, officials and plain old civilians.

My social circle is more than comprehensive enough to gain a fair opinion.

How about you Doc?

Also when someone's personality makes any kind of a working relationship untenable, then discussing it is more than justified.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

If I'm not being objective about this, then you certainly aren't either. And yes, it was putting Eddy down, saying he isn't as good as he should be. You don't think that EBH knows that? There was criticism already this season from an underwhelming classics campaign, he must be feeling the pressure to come good keenly I would expect, and he has the TdF coming up.

And Kimmage used him to score points. Applaud it if you like, I don't think he deserved it.

Jimmy, I am trying to keep up with your arguments but this post caught my eye.
So, Kimmage is a bad guy for saying EBH has under performed relative to others, even though you say above he was already criticised.

Why would EBH be upset if he already knows, and why wasn't there a Sky meltdown when he was criticised earlier?

 

[The Hitch]

Kimmage could learn a thing or two from Dave Walsh

This is what i dont get about the Wiggins asslick crowd. Anyone who questions if the worlds most dominant sports team is clean, even if they have the credentials of kimmage, gets treated like a child.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

My social circle includes past and present continental and domestic pros, olympic and pro tour coaches and team managers, sports journalists, leisure cyclists, amateur racers, officials and plain old civilians.

My social circle is more than comprehensive enough to gain a fair opinion.

How about you Doc?

Also when someone's personality makes any kind of a working relationship untenable, then discussing it is more than justified.

My social circle is almost the same - there is no "universal" opinion, some like PK, some don't and usually the one's that don't have had something to hide.
I know all certainly respect him.

Please be specific to the highlighted - also saying a journo should have a "working relationship" is odd. Compromise is fine, but a journo is there to do their job not make friends.