Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[JRTinMA]

My social circle is almost the same - there is no "universal" opinion, some like PK, some don't and usually the one's that don't have had something to hide.
I know all certainly respect him.

Please be specific to the highlighted - also saying a journo should have a "working relationship" is odd. Compromise is fine, but a journo is there to do their job not make friends.

lolz, now without the people you follow on twitter.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

lolz, now without the people you follow on twitter.

Ok, (of course some are the same people I follow - but I will remove them) - still hasn't changed anything.

 

[andy1234]

My social circle is almost the same - there is no "universal" opinion, some like PK, some don't and usually the one's that don't have had something to hide.
I know all certainly respect him.

Please be specific to the highlighted - also saying a journo should have a "working relationship" is odd. Compromise is fine, but a journo is there to do their job not make friends.

Social circle to me means people I know well, not people I follow on twitter....

A journo is indeed there to do a job.
Everyone is there to do a job.

Most manage to do their job without being deliberately confrontational.
Those that are confrontational had better have something important enough to bring to theparty, to justify putting up with the disruption.

Kimmage has neither the skills, nor the influence to pull this off, and never has.
He's a bit part player, desperate to be the main attraction, and his actions scream it, at every opportunity.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

A journo is indeed there to do a job.
Everyone is there to do a job.

Most manage to do their job without being deliberately confrontational.
Those that are confrontational had better have something important enough to bring to theparty, to justify putting up with the disruption.

Kimmage has neither the skills, nor the influence to pull this off, and never has.
He's a bit part player, desperate to be the main attraction, and his actions scream it, at every opportunity.

Long post, where is the specific point I requested?

Sadly, the "most manage to do their job...." is very untrue. Many of the same journos who were slow to report or question previously were the same people who had cozy relationships with PR people or teams to get access.
That did not serve the sport or their profession well.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I see you added this in after -

Social circle to me means people I know well, not people I follow on twitter....

Nothing to do with twitter - these are people I have known long before twitter.

 

[andy1234]

Long post, where is the specific point I requested?

Sadly, the "most manage to do their job...." is very untrue. Many of the same journos who were slow to report or question previously were the same people who had cozy relationships with PR people or teams to get access.
That did not serve the sport or their profession well.

I answered your point clearly. He is overly confrontational, and self serving.
Kimmage wants to be the story.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I answered your point clearly. He is overly confrontational, and self serving.
Kimmage wants to be the story.

I asked for a specific to a highlighted point, which was when you wrote "Also when someone's personality makes any kind of a working relationship untenable, then discussing it is more than justified."

 

[JimmyFingers]

And I'm pretty sure this is a question that both Brailsford and EBH have asked of each other over the past year. Personally, I don't think it is true to suggest that EBH hasn't improved - he has, but through diversification in that now he is strong in medium mountains, time trials and classics. Don't forget also, he only just fell short in Flanders this year: had Cancellara attacked later on the climb, EBH may have stayed with him. You can't fault him for not keeping up with Cancellara. Few riders do. I don't think GTs were ever on the table, and he would admit this himself. Perhaps one week stage races.

So it was a good question worthy of being asked. The situation wasn't great, and I really feel for EBH, who was there, don't forget, when Kimmage asked it. That was a little out of order. One on one with Brailsford, fine.

Now Kimmage, good writer that he is, usually has a subtext when it comes to cycling. In this instance, what was it? Is he suggesting Wiggins/Froome leapt over EBH because they are on a programme and EBH isn't? If Sky have a programme, then EBH would definitely be on it: if he has the talent, then he would only need a little (less risky) pick-me-up than the boatloads of pharmaceuticals many believe Froome needs, for example. For a details man like Brailsford that is a no brainer, but conveniently ignored.

I think, perhaps, Kimmage thinks EBH IS NOT on a programme, and he hopes that by flattering him somewhat, and causing some internal strife, that EBH may spill the beans to Kimmage. That could be his long game (though could take a while as Lovkvist for example has said nothing). But his opening gambit was clumsy.

I think Avoriaz's response shows why I take umbrage at Kimmage's actions. Empathising with EBH and pressure he is under, I maintain that it was a classless act by Kimmage, exploiting a situation and using a rider to get at Brailsford and score points. Given that it wasn't really a question about doping, or maybe a highly nuanced one that you only get at a doping issue by interpretating it in a certain manner, (as Avoriaz also demonstrates) it becomes more loaded, and more resembling a wanton attack.

But interpretations and opinions are highly personal, this is my take, I don't expect others to agree with it. My reaction mainly comes from sympathy for EBH, who was used by Kimmage and ultimately got caught in the crossfire. Kennaugh's tweet is an example of how the riders viewed the question, EBH obviously being sanguine so far on it.

 

[King Boonen]

It was a pretty classless thing for Kimmage to do, but then he has form in that regard.

 

[Benotti69]

And I'm pretty sure this is a question that both Brailsford and EBH have asked of each other over the past year. Personally, I don't think it is true to suggest that EBH hasn't improved - he has, but through diversification in that now he is strong in medium mountains, time trials and classics. Don't forget also, he only just fell short in Flanders this year: had Cancellara attacked later on the climb, EBH may have stayed with him. You can't fault him for not keeping up with Cancellara. Few riders do. I don't think GTs were ever on the table, and he would admit this himself. Perhaps one week stage races.

So it was a good question worthy of being asked. The situation wasn't great, and I really feel for EBH, who was there, don't forget, when Kimmage asked it. That was a little out of order. One on one with Brailsford, fine.

Now Kimmage, good writer that he is, usually has a subtext when it comes to cycling. In this instance, what was it? Is he suggesting Wiggins/Froome leapt over EBH because they are on a programme and EBH isn't? If Sky have a programme, then EBH would definitely be on it: if he has the talent, then he would only need a little (less risky) pick-me-up than the boatloads of pharmaceuticals many believe Froome needs, for example. For a details man like Brailsford that is a no brainer, but conveniently ignored.

I think, perhaps, Kimmage thinks EBH IS NOT on a programme, and he hopes that by flattering him somewhat, and causing some internal strife, that EBH may spill the beans to Kimmage. That could be his long game (though could take a while as Lovkvist for example has said nothing). But his opening gambit was clumsy.

Kimmage does not see this as a game.

It is a team sport, from DS down to mechanics. They share the spoils, they all must take the blame when it goes wrong.

I am prepared to cut Kimmage some slack for clumsyness.

Teams are rather naieve if they think they can turn up to the TdF in 2013 and avoid any kind of dopign question.

That Sky fans have come on to lambast Kimmage rather than the response given shows people dont want to or hear anyone else for that matter question their heros.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

So, Kimmage being disliked for being a journalist? Yep, thats the cycling omerta at its best.

 

[the sceptic]

When you believe in fairytales, the butthurt gets strong when someone tries to ruin your reality.

 

[Benotti69]

So, Kimmage being disliked for being a journalist? Yep, thats the cycling omerta at its best.

That is best the Sky fans came come up with. Nobody likes Kimmage (like Kimmage would give a fig) and he ha no respect from other cycling journalists!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Wonder which other journalist is having a film made about them at the TdF? And it isn't at Kimmage's instigation before people think Kimmage has an ego.

Fanboys keep shooting the messenger's, remember how that worked out for Monkeymouth

 

[Le Baroudeur]

So, Kimmage being disliked for being a journalist? Yep, thats the cycling omerta at its best.

Or is it his Chrissie Todd impersonation. Gizzajob!!!

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Or is it his Chrissie Todd impersonation. Gizzajob!!!

Gotta help me here, Chrissie Todd?

 

[Le Baroudeur]

Gotta help me here, Chrissie Todd?

Bernard Hill, Yosser Hughes, I can do that, Gazzajob. 1980's drama.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

He is a kenian born...

Doesn't matter, look at Phil The Greek.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

And I'm pretty sure this is a question that both Brailsford and EBH have asked of each other over the past year. Personally, I don't think it is true to suggest that EBH hasn't improved - he has, but through diversification in that now he is strong in medium mountains, time trials and classics. Don't forget also, he only just fell short in Flanders this year: had Cancellara attacked later on the climb, EBH may have stayed with him. You can't fault him for not keeping up with Cancellara. Few riders do. I don't think GTs were ever on the table, and he would admit this himself. Perhaps one week stage races.

To the blue - to be fair on Benotti he said in comparison to Wiggins/Froome, which is correct.

So it was a good question worthy of being asked. The situation wasn't great, and I really feel for EBH, who was there, don't forget, when Kimmage asked it. That was a little out of order. One on one with Brailsford, fine.

As I said earlier, I can certainly understand if EBH (& Kennaugh) were upset by what was said - even though PK didn't criticize EBH, those personally involved would not see it that way.

Now Kimmage, good writer that he is, usually has a subtext when it comes to cycling. In this instance, what was it? Is he suggesting Wiggins/Froome leapt over EBH because they are on a programme and EBH isn't? If Sky have a programme, then EBH would definitely be on it: if he has the talent, then he would only need a little (less risky) pick-me-up than the boatloads of pharmaceuticals many believe Froome needs, for example. For a details man like Brailsford that is a no brainer, but conveniently ignored.

I think, perhaps, Kimmage thinks EBH IS NOT on a programme, and he hopes that by flattering him somewhat, and causing some internal strife, that EBH may spill the beans to Kimmage. That could be his long game (though could take a while as Lovkvist for example has said nothing). But his opening gambit was clumsy.

I like a good conspiracy - that is not it though
Riders not on a program usually no little about the program.

No, it was a straight up compare and contrast - how is it one very obviously talented guy has had a slow, even steady progress while another rider(s) whose talent was not as obvious is a GT contender.

 

[melkemugg]

He was not referring to Sky and doping.

Off course it was. It might be a bad and unclear attempt, but for me it was pretty clear he tried to make a subtle point or maybe fish a mistake out of Brailsford, -of whats up in Sky or whatever. Every question Kimmage asks, and his whole presence in the Tour are in one way or the other related to dope.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Why was it wrong to ask that question

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Why was it wrong to ask that question

I would love to answer that, but I am not sure about your personality......

 

[Zam_Olyas]

i would love to answer that, but i am not sure about your personality......:d

............

 

[Escarabajo]

...

I like a good conspiracy - that is not it though
Riders not on a program usually no little about the program.

No, it was a straight up compare and contrast - how is it one very obviously talented guy has had a slow, even steady progress while another rider(s) whose talent was not as obvious is a GT contender.

I'd like to agree with you but I can't. I just don't think it was a neutral question. Deeply inside I believe he was referring to the Sky "Program". IMHO.

 

[The Hitch]

The thing about Kimmage asking why EBH isnt ullrich is that Sky could now turn EBH into Ullrich and when people come a asking they can say - look Kimmage said thats what his expected potential was.

Of course, Ebh becoming Ullrich would be a lot less suspicious than Froome and Wiggins becoming Armstrong.

 

[martinvickers]

Indeed I did ask YOU how long it took YOU, because you offered this scenario previously:
thats why I asked YOU how long, to which you answered "less than 10".....now you are attempting to put a different spin on it.

Nope, you misread, made an assumption, tried to make s mart point that wasn't so smart, and are now trying to cover your ***.

I stated that a story was up within minutes. It was. I was right.

You then asked, and I quote

"How many minutes did it take for you to see it?"

- my emphasis, but your wording.

You did NOT ask how long passed between tweet and story. You asked how long it took me to see it. I answered, quite directly.

Less than ten. Which it was. I was right. Again.

Now, how about you show just enough humility to accept you got this one wrong, and walk away with a bit of dignity, ok?