Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[roundabout]

Why did Floyd use del Moral in 2005?

Read the exhibit B in his affidavit

 

[gooner]

Read the exhibit B in his affidavit

I remember him saying that in an interview. He still used and paid del Moral.

PK; How did you manage your doping in ’05? The Wall St Journal piece said: Mister Landis said he hired a Spanish doctor in Valencia to take transfusions and paid one person $10,000 to make two separate deliveries of half-litre bags of blood during the 2005 Tour de France.

FL;In 2004, the Postal Service got rid of Luis Garcia Del Moral, who was the team doctor, and I knew that he was often in charge of the logistics of doing transfusions and things like that, so I just contacted him and asked if he would do it for me. So I paid him to do it.



PK;Del Moral?

FL;Yeah.



PK;You paid Del Moral?

FL;Yeah.



PK;Did that ‘work’?

FL;Did it work? Yeah, the reason that I was not as good in 2005 as I was in 2004 or 2006 was because I had surgery that winter and wasn’t walking for weeks and it took a while to get back in shape. So drugs or no drugs weren’t going to change that. I did the same thing in 2004 and 2005 and 2006; the one variable was that I had my hip issues to deal with and therapy and things like that. I mean, in all of the Tours I did exactly the same amount of blood (transfusing) except the first one (2002); the first one I did one transfusion which is 500 millilitres and the next four I did 1000 militaries each, three separate times in 2006, because it was easier to maintain the continuous blood parameters that were being checked. But it ended up being the same total volume that I added so…yeah, Del Moral, in spite of denying that he ever saw any doping, like everybody does, that was all he really did.

 

[oldcrank]

Steve Tilford had a blog post about finisher bottles. He mentions how he did not understand why Porte would break the rules to give Froome a bottle so close to a race finish. But looking into finisher bottles (a bottle that contains Tramadol and crushed up caffeine pills), which Taylor Phinney mentioned were being used, made sense of it.

http://stevetilford.com/2013/10/14/racing-on-opiates/

It seems to me that use of this stuff indicates a way of thinking. A team that has no problem pumping its riders up with painkillers and stimulants at the end of a race will not have a problem with other kinds of doping.

Only problem with this theory is that Ritchie didn't get the
Froome Dog Millionaire a "finishing bottle", my friend, he
got him a CNP Energy Gel.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

London. Olympics. Promotion.

Another miracle for the home team. Felt like Barcelona in '92 and the amazing rise of Spain as a sporting power.

And all that comes with it.

Can't remember the rider's name, but Spain's kilo rider in '92 was unreal!

Walked away with the gold, and looked like he could've ridden another winning time right after.

Not normal...

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Steve Tilford had a blog post about finisher bottles. He mentions how he did not understand why Porte would break the rules to give Froome a bottle so close to a race finish. But looking into finisher bottles (a bottle that contains Tramadol and crushed up caffeine pills), which Taylor Phinney mentioned were being used, made sense of it.

http://stevetilford.com/2013/10/14/racing-on-opiates/

It seems to me that use of this stuff indicates a way of thinking. A team that has no problem pumping its riders up with painkillers and stimulants at the end of a race will not have a problem with other kinds of doping.

"It's not doping if it's not banned" said many pros over many generations...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

"It's not doping if it's not banned" said many pros over many generations...

many professional pros. as opposed to the amateur pros, who were usually in groupetto 1 or 2.

 

[Granville57]

I remember him saying that in an interview. He still used and paid del Moral.

I've always enjoyed the additional elements of Exhibit B (transcript of email sent to Steve Johnson of USA Cycling) from his USADA statement.

2005: I had learned at that point how to do most of the transfusion technicals and other things on my own so I hired Allen Lim as my assistant to help with details and logistics. He helped Levi Leipheimer and I prepare the transfusions for Levi and I and made sure they were kept at the proper temperature. We both did two separate transfusions that Tour however my hematocrit was too low at the start so I did my first one a few days before the start so as not to start with a deficit.

Is there a contradiction between the two?

A riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.

 

[BroDeal]

Only problem with this theory is that Ritchie didn't get the
Froome Dog Millionaire a "finishing bottle", my friend, he
got him a CNP Energy Gel.

This is the quote from Tilford's blog.

"I remember last year in the Tour, when Chris Froome took two bottles with less than 10km left. (It might have been 2 years ago with Wiggins, my memory is fussy.) For sure last year, Richie Porte took a bottle illegally and gave it to Froome. I never could understand how that could make a difference so close to the end of a race, but this whole finish bottle thing explains a lot."

It is a bit hard to understand what specific incidents he is referring to.

 

[martinvickers]

Those 26 seconds still mean he outclimbed everyone except for his own teammate.

True, to a limited extent. But do you really think the last mountain stage to Peyragudes works out the same way if Wiggins heads into it with 8-9 second lead, rather than minute upon minute? You think Toussuire ends the same way? The iron grip of the TT's were the defining foundation of that race.

Lots and lots of TT km. check
Limited mountains, especially summit finishes. check
Limited competition (sick Cadel and Nibbles, schleck and contador out, Quintan not yet arrived) check.

 

[martinvickers]

If Greipel wins the tour this year, will you believe in him?

I cannot, for the life of me, see what you think you've added to the conversation with this...

What a waste of 20 seconds.

 

[martinvickers]

"It's not doping if it's not banned" said many pros over many generations...

"It's not doping if it's not banned" doesn't bother me close to as much as "It's not doping if I'm not caught" - a rather different problem. If you're allowed to take it, you're allowed to take it. You can 'wish' it illegal. It is either allowed, or its not.

Whether you should be allowed is a different question.

 

[The Hitch]

Limited competition (sick Cadel and Nibbles, schleck and contador out, Quintan not yet arrived) check.

Yeah and also you forgot - Merckx - fat, Ullrich - banned, Coppi - dead. Etc.

When we take those into account we really see how weak the 2012 Tour de France was

 

[red_flanders]

Except they did marginally better in China (market 1.x billion odd). Where was the Chinese cycling miracle? They'd pay better, they'd have more talent lying about, they'd be more willing to push the envelope Ma's army style? So where was their Beijing miracle?

The lack of one miracle does not exclude the possibility of another occurring. What happened in China isn't germane to a discussion if Sky IMO. You have to be in shouting distance with your talent.

I recall China did pretty well in a number of sports...

 

[martinvickers]

Yeah and also you forgot - Merckx - fat, Lemond - bitter, Coppi - dead. Etc.

When we take those into account we really see how weak the 2012 Tour de France was

Vaguely amusing, Hitch, but not actually useful.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that the depth of GC talent in the 2012 race was as strong as other recent events? Seriously?

Let's put it this way - leave aside the skybots. Nibali took 4 minutes out of such giants as Van den Broeck, nearly 5 out of Van gerderen, and nearly ten out of a sick evans and rolland. Nobody else came within ten minutes of him. On a TT heavy course. No Contador, Schlecks, Purito, Quintana hadn't arrived yet. Valverde was feeling his way back and did damn all till the last mountain.

It was a sitting duck of a tour.

 

[the sceptic]

Vaguely amusing, Hitch, but not actually useful.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that the depth of GC talent in the 2012 race was as strong as other recent events? Seriously?

Let's put it this way - leave aside the skybots. Nibali took 4 minutes out of such giants as Van den Broeck, nearly 5 out of Van gerderen, and nearly ten out of a sick evans and rolland. Nobody else came within ten minutes of him. On a TT heavy course. No Contador, Schlecks, Purito, Quintana hadn't arrived yet. Valverde was feeling his way back and did damn all till the last mountain.

It was a sitting duck of a tour.

What about the 2009 tour, was that a weak field too?

Martin, how do you think it was possible for Wiggins to make such a gigantic leap from 2008 to 2009? This was before marginal gains were invented wasnt it?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Here's what gets me:

1. Froome was riding below his best, waiting for Wiggo
2. Wiggo smashed Froome for 6 in the final TT

The end.

Look at Wiggo from February to August - that's the problem. Concentrate on the 2012 Tour and all the unicorn fairytales as to why Wiggo smashed all and sundry repeatedly because this rider was sick or blah blah blah.

Then take 2 steps back and look at all of 2012.

Then take 10 steps back and look at 2006-2008, when Wiggo was trying to do things in the protour and failing spectacularly.

Good grief.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

What about the 2009 tour, was that a weak field too?

Apparently yes, and finishing just behind Armstrong was, apparently, nothing. Coz Armstrong was nowhere near his best.



Or something.

 

[martinvickers]

The lack of one miracle does not exclude the possibility of another occurring. What happened in China isn't germane to a discussion if Sky IMO. You have to be in shouting distance with your talent.

I recall China did pretty well in a number of sports...

ALL hosts do. But that's the point. Home advantage is just that. An advantage.

Let's compare and contrast, and bear in mind the boycott games should make it easier to medal:

Spain, Host in 88

80 (Moscow) - 1G/6M 20th place
84 (Los Ang) - 1G/5M 20th place
88 (Seoul) - 1G/4M 25th place
92 (BARCA) - 13G(!)/22M 6th place
96 (Atlanta) - 5G/17M 13th Place
00 (Sydney) - 3G/11M 25th Place
04 (athens) - 3G/19M 20th Place
08 (Beijing) - 5G/18M 15th Place
Now there's a miracle, between 88 and 92 - did Spanish sports fundng increase from 92 onwards? It would explain a lot. The question is - if the spanish doped for 92, did they stop for 96? or is there a genuine home advantage?

GB

80 - 5G/ 21M - 9th
84 - 5G/ 37M - 11th
88 - 5G/ 24M - 12th
92 - 5G/ 20M - 13th

Very fixed pattern

96 - 1G/ 15M - 36th

Infamously bad games, especially for classic sports like track and swimming - this is when, and why, lottery sports funding began

00 - 11G/28M - 10th
04 - 9G/ 30M - 10th

Immediate dividend, and a new 'level' reached - but not the number of medals has not increased that much; what's increased is the winning of gold.

London awarded games in 2005, funding ramps up again

08 - 19G/47M - 4th
12 (HG) - 29G/65M - 3rd

Fundng for 16 is down very slightly I believe, but still VASTLY over what it was 80 through 96.

Success follows funding, and funding follows hosting. Sometimes it really is that simple.

 

[martinvickers]

What about the 2009 tour, was that a weak field too?

Martin, how do you think it was possible for Wiggins to make such a gigantic leap from 2008 to 2009? This was before marginal gains were invented wasnt it?

Here's your problem.

Look at the name in the thread title.

Sky.

Wiggo didn't ride for Sky in '09. There WAS no sky in '09. So '09 really ain't on topic.
Now, while we're here - How do I think it's possible? I don't. I think it's factual. The issue is not did he do it. He did it. That's historic reality. The issue is how.

And the answer is, I don't know. But I'm pretty sure it wasn't Sky doing it; them not existing and all that.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Cracks are appearing. The thin veneer of opaque transparency is slowly but surely disintegrating.

I look forward to the "I'm not saying they're not doping" posters having to STFU because the truth is finally out, and the immediate response can be : they are / were doping.

I will dance on the empty, silent wasteland that is that group of fence sitters.

Then I will collate all the excuses and reasons trotted out, into a comprehensive bingo card, ready for the next miraculous winner.

 

[martinvickers]

Here's what gets me:

1. Froome was riding below his best, waiting for Wiggo
2. Wiggo smashed Froome for 6 in the final TT

The end.

Look at Wiggo from February to August - that's the problem. Concentrate on the 2012 Tour and all the unicorn fairytales as to why Wiggo smashed all and sundry repeatedly because this rider was sick or blah blah blah.

Then take 2 steps back and look at all of 2012.

Then take 10 steps back and look at 2006-2008, when Wiggo was trying to do things in the protour and failing spectacularly.

Good grief.

In 2007 Wiggins won double gold at the Track Worlds. In 2008 he won Double gold at the Olympics. I think that gives you a pretty obvious idea of where his priorities, and presumably his training, where geared to in those years.

 

[martinvickers]

Cracks are appearing. The thin veneer of opaque transparency is slowly but surely disintegrating.

I look forward to the "I'm not saying they're not doping" posters having to STFU because the truth is finally out, and the immediate response can be : they are / were doping.

I will dance on the empty, silent wasteland that is that group of fence sitters.

Then I will collate all the excuses and reasons trotted out, into a comprehensive bingo card, ready for the next miraculous winner.

Wow, thanks, that added....absolutely nothing.

Cheers.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Steve Tilford had a blog post about finisher bottles. He mentions how he did not understand why Porte would break the rules to give Froome a bottle so close to a race finish. But looking into finisher bottles (a bottle that contains Tramadol and crushed up caffeine pills), which Taylor Phinney mentioned were being used, made sense of it.

http://stevetilford.com/2013/10/14/racing-on-opiates/

It seems to me that use of this stuff indicates a way of thinking. A team that has no problem pumping its riders up with painkillers and stimulants at the end of a race will not have a problem with other kinds of doping.

I'd forgotten that bit of "sportsmanship" by the Stiff Upper Lippers. Makes the incident even more distasteful.

I hope Horner, Contador, and Nibali are on Grade A, Prime #1 sh!t this year.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Wow, thanks, that added....absolutely nothing.

Cheers.

You are aware of irony, right?

Cheers

 

[martinvickers]

I'd forgotten that bit of "sportsmanship" by the Stiff Upper Lippers. Makes the incident even more distasteful.

I hope Horner, Contador, and Nibali are on Grade A, Prime #1 sh!t this year.

Why? IF you find cheating distasteful, why hope for more of it?

One might, bearing in mind the bolded above, conclude that it's not principle so much as bigotry. One might conclude.