Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[The Hitch]

Im not trying to be amusing. Im pointing out to your line of reasoning is flawed to the bone especially as a) relies on an outdated hiaarchy, and b) can be used for absolutely any gt ever ridden.

A)
You make your own conclusions as to how good a rider was in parts of their careers and then assume you know exactly how good he should have been in 2012.

The massive flaw in this line of reasoning has been visible to all after less than a year ago we were hearing how Froome on Prati di Tivo must have been a very very slow performance and even proof cycling is in a new slow speeds era because Santambrogio and Horner finished in the top 5 ergo it was a very very very weak field.

What has happened since then shows just why this is an appauling argument to take.

No, riders, do not remain at the same levels through their whole careers. Some get worse over time (Gesink) some improve over time ( Joaquim Rodriguez) some collapse or improve suddenly (Schleck, Froome). Some riders have 1 big race where they appear world class (Herbert Dupont, Christophe Kern), but never show that level again. Some have 1 big period where they are elite whereas the rest of their careers are worse (Voeckler), or may only show their top talent once in a number of years (cobo).

b) You can do that with absolutely any Grand tour

The year before Wiggins won for example, 10 x worse even

2011 Tour -Quintana, Porte, Pinot etc etc not emergedNibali- not there Menchov- not invited, Wiggins- crashed out Froome - didn't make the squad, JVDB- crashed out, Basso - injured in lead up Contador - tired, hurt knee, Gesink- crashed, Rodriguez- not there, Cobo- not there.

And thats just podium contenders. Could add in Horner crashed out, Vino - crashed out, Leipheimer- crashed, Scarponi- not there, Sanchez- screwed over.

And thats just from memory without going back to see which underperformers said they were sick.

2010 Tour - loads of riders - not emerged,Frank Schleck - crashed out,Nibali - not there, Cadel Evans - crashed, Lance Armstrong - crashed,Contador - sick, Mosquera - not invited, Samuel Sanchez - broken arm, Gesink - recovering from injury Horner- ordered to work, Sastre- tired from Giro, Basso- tired from Giro,

2008 Tour - loads of riders incl, Nibali, Wiggins - not emerged,Contador- on holiday, Rasmussen- different holiday, Leipheimer - not there, Ricco- expelled, Vino, Basso, Ullrich etc- banned Di Luca- not there, Pereiro- crashed out Armstrong- drinking beer, calling field weak.

Kohl benefited and came 3rd, he must have been clean.

And don't even get me started on 2006 when half the field withdrew on the eve, or 2007 when they were all banned and more. 2007 must have been a really slow edition. To top it all off it was won by Alberto Contador, who, yeah he won Pais Vasco and Paris Nice, but he never showed anything in gts before. I bet that edition had really slow ascents.

So in the 2012 Tour de France - a 3000km gt, some riders underperformed, some faced difficulties, some never turned up.
Do tell

Thats what happens in gts. Not all riders arrive in top form. Others emerge take their places.


Peyresourde

2012:9,8 km@7,7%---26:43---average speed 22.01 km/h(Pinot-Froome-Wiggins-Van Den Broeck-Rolland-Nibali-Van Garderen-Horner)
2007:9,8 km@7,7%---26:45---average speed 21.98 km/h(Contador-Rasmussen)
-27:26---average speed 21.43 km/h(Evans-Leipheimer-Boogerd-Kashechkin-Klöden-Sastre-Valverde
2013:9,8 km@7,7%---26:43---average speed 22.01 km/h(Kiserlovski-Horner-Nibali-Pinot-Valverde-Rodriguez-Pozzovivo-Uran)

Yep, Wiggins sure was lucky it was a weak field. All those riders who weren't there could climb that mountain so much faster than the really pedestrian pace Sky had that could only beat the likes of Vangarderen, as they showed in.... ummm, oh wait.

 

[BroDeal]

Why? IF you find cheating distasteful, why hope for more of it?

One might, bearing in mind the bolded above, conclude that it's not principle so much as bigotry. One might conclude.

Why would anyone want to watch a sport dominated by one team of dopers? If there is going to be massive rider transformations from doping then the least we can hope for is more teams to do it so there will be some sort of vague entertainment value.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Why? IF you find cheating distasteful, why hope for more of it?

One might, bearing in mind the bolded above, conclude that it's not principle so much as bigotry. One might conclude.

One might conclude it's prejudice, not bigotry...if one is going to use precisely defined terms...also, one might conclude that a pair of pliers might remove that hook from your mouth.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Why would anyone want to watch a sport dominated by one team of dopers? If there is going to be massive rider transformations from doping then the least we can hope for is more teams to do it so there will be some sort of vague entertainment value.

Especially when that team of dopers has a cheering section that is filled with people who slang massive amounts of mud when the Union Jack wasn't the flag flying over the team. Now these same people have become experts on obfuscation and denial. I wasn't really all that bothered after the Tour because it's a common phenomenon, but when this Chorus took up the charge to throw stones at Horner, it became too much to bear.

Maybe it isn't even prejudice. Maybe it is the same sickness of feeling I had for Armstrong fans: I detest hypocrisy, and nobody does it better than Sky fans...

 

[BroDeal]

Especially when that team of dopers has a cheering section that is filled with people who slang massive amounts of mud when the Union Jack wasn't the flag flying over the team. Now these same people have become experts on obfuscation and denial. I wasn't really all that bothered after the Tour because it's a common phenomenon, but when this Chorus took up the charge to throw stones at Horner, it became too much to bear.

Maybe it isn't even prejudice. Maybe it is the same sickness of feeling I had for Armstrong fans: I detest hypocrisy, and nobody does it better than Sky fans...

That si why I created my "Chris squared" thread. It was ridiculous seeing people act outraged about Horner while two months earlier they were making excuses for Froome. The clowns at Bike *** were especially comical.

 

[red_flanders]

Success follows funding, and funding follows hosting. Sometimes it really is that simple.

Sure, funding helps in a lot of sports. Better facilities, better coaches and better training.

There's only one thing that turns mediocre pack fodder into world beaters though. It's not funding.

 

[BroDeal]

Sure, funding helps in a lot of sports. Better facilities, better coaches and better training.

There's only one thing that turns mediocre pack fodder into world beaters though. It's not funding.

If people want to point to funding as a reason then they should be able to point to what that money is buying to create an advantage. Specialized has its own wind tunnel that is used to test frames, components, and its sponsored riders. Trek, with revenue of about $600 million, spends a lot on R&D. Pro European teams have a budget of about $300 million in the aggregate; they have a collective memory of things that have been tried that goes back decades. There are a great many companies doing research and development of products that can be sold to the lucrative triathlon market. The world is full of exercise physiology professors in publish or perish mode who are desperately searching for the breakthrough that will make their career. And yet we are to believe that Sky and an expat swim coach from Australia made a huge advances that eluded everyone else?

 

[red_flanders]

If people want to point to funding as a reason then they should be able to point to what that money is buying to create an advantage. Specialized has its own wind tunnel that is used to test frames, components, and its sponsored riders. Trek, with revenue of about $600 million, spends a lot on R&D. Pro European teams have a budget of about $300 million in the aggregate; they have a collective memory of things that have been tried that goes back decades. There are a great many companies doing research and development of products that can be sold to the lucrative triathlon market. The world is full of exercise physiology professors in publish or perish mode who are desperately searching for the breakthrough that will make their career. And yet we are to believe that Sky and an expat swim coach from Australia made a huge advances that eluded everyone else?

Money quote bolded. Spot on with the whole post.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

snipped

Beautiful post. That was an intellectual @ss-handing...

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Money quote bolded. Spot on with the whole post.

Yep, you certainly wouldn't get some guy working out of his shed and using parts of a washing machine to design a bike more capable then those guys.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Why would anyone want to watch a sport dominated by one team of dopers? If there is going to be massive rider transformations from doping then the least we can hope for is more teams to do it so there will be some sort of vague entertainment value.

Interesting that some of the Yanks on this board were never behind getting dopers before when Contador was dominating. I am trying to figure out why the change of heart for the Yanks to back America's own Horner? There is something about this resident of Oregon that obviously appeals to them? Is it an age thing? A baldness thing. I will need to have a think to work out why this USA representative has made them change stance.

 

[BroDeal]

Interesting that some of the Yanks on this board were never behind getting dopers before when Contador was dominating.

It is clear that you have no idea what you are talking about. This sounds like Walsh's method of criticizing those who don't believe in Sky: Just make stuff up about the unbelievers.

 

[Ferminal]

Yep, you certainly wouldn't get some guy working out of his shed and using parts of a washing machine to design a bike more capable then those guys.

So money doesn't matter?

 

[MarkvW]

Yep, you certainly wouldn't get some guy working out of his shed and using parts of a washing machine to design a bike more capable then those guys.

Graham Obree.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

So money doesn't matter?

In some cases it does and in some it doesn't. There is no absolute.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

It is clear that you have no idea what you are talking about. This sounds like Walsh's method of criticizing those who don't believe in Sky: Just make stuff up about the unbelievers.

As per usual you avoid the question.

btw. I have just caught up on you and Hoggy's explanation(s) of the Bosman rule. Comedy gold. I should print it out and frame it.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Graham Obree.

Yes... I think that might have been my point. An emoticon might have been in order.

 

[MarkvW]

Yes... I think that might have been my point. An emoticon might have been in order.

I'm an Obree fan! He's an innovator (a person with no place in the UCI).

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

I'm an Obree fan! He's an innovator (a person with no place in the UCI).

Hard not to be an Obree fan imo.

Chris Boardman's Lotus bike could be considered another example. Not designed by one of the big teams (but requiring the backing of Lotus to get built).

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Could someone explain why Microsoft (whose revenues dwarf all those bike companies) seem to always miss the boat recently. They thought the internet was pretty much a fad, same could be said for search engines, mobile, tablets, etc... For all their money, history and expertise (within and bought) they still seem to design and produce sh!t products.

Yet a couple of guys in a garage surpassed them, Yahoo, Excite and all the others that have been left by the wayside.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

What about the American motor industry? Established and with a rich history - money to burn. What are the chances that firms in Japan and elsewhere would do pretty much everything better then them?

Seems they would have been better off actually buying the money.

 

[BroDeal]

As per usual you avoid the question.

As per usual you avoid answering when your BS is called. Name the posters who wanted to give Contador a free pass but changed their tune for Sky.

btw. I have just caught up on you and Hoggy's explanation(s) of the Bosman rule. Comedy gold. I should print it out and frame it.

Maybe you should. Then when you read it you would find that I never wrote about the Bosman rule. I merely referred to statements made by Vaughters, who was in the best position to know what went on and why he conceded.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Maybe you should. Then when you read it you would find that I never wrote about the Bosman rule.

Yep, you never mentioned at all except referencing JV.

It is clear from the last few pages that the Sky apologists have no idea what they are talking about. thehog is making a clear argument about the importance and fallout of the Bosman ruling but the usual suspects have not said a damned thing to refute how the ruling transformed the market.

 

[BroDeal]

In some cases it does and in some it doesn't. There is no absolute.

Translation: When making excuses for Sky's unexplainable transformation of its riders, we will claim that Sky's budget relative to other teams gives them a advantage except when it is pointed out that there are companies in cycling with much larger budgets and the aggregate spending of other teams dwarfs Sky's budget, in which case we will claim that a huge budget does not matter.

I think we can term this Team Sky apologists' Through the Looking Glass thinking.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?”

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

I should quote Hoggy to give it the full context

It also ensured that EU member states could not hold on to a sports person if an alternate country was offering a fair and reasonable fee for transfers and that the player was to be paid higher it's its alternate club/team - restraint of trade.

In short Garmin couldn't hold on to Wiggins per the contract just because they held his contract. If another team from a EU member state was offering a fair and resonable transfer fee and paying the sportsperson more money because they are now worth more (Tour 4th) then he had to be released.

That's how the transfer market works thanks to Bosman and any EU sportsperson can break contract if they are worth more during the course of their contract. All that needs to be covered is the development / transfer fee.

Genius really. I will go on no further else it will be considered off-topic...