Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Franklin]

. The domestiques, can blow up, with no concern, as long as they get their role done.

Now that would absolutely hold up... if they didn't finish in front of the GC wannabe's while softpedalling.

Let me make this clear: They do their round of duty at full speed, drop contenders and then softpedal in front of said wannabe's.


*note that I find comparing these riders with Landis hilarious considering the setting of this thread*

 

[Jeremiah]

I am laughing about JV a month ago trying to sell us a load of equine feces about the sport cleaning itself up.

http://twitter.com/Vaughters/statuses/221640663379361792

Jonathan Vaughters‏@Vaughters

@matpennell whenever I say anything nice about Wiggo, the dumb *** "Wiggo is doping" crowd gets their panties in a bunch. I give up.


Mat P@matpennell 7 Jul 12


@Vaughters no congrats to one of your former riders?!?




Jonathan Vaughters✔
@Vaughters

@matpennell whenever I say anything nice about Wiggo, the dumb *** "Wiggo is doping" crowd gets their panties in a bunch. I give up.

7 Jul 12

 

[blackcat]

AM cognizant of the vagaries and incoherency.

If the Sky team riders could target GC, I have confidence they can all ride 10 ten. But they are given equipier roles.

Landis was one of the riders who pulled off before Heras, before Ace, before the Spanish domestques. I know one can read into his "positive" status, but my belief, is the entire pointy end, are getting the help, and often, the quality of the help, is crucial to your performance. But muppets they aint.

 

[Franklin]

If the Sky team riders could target GC, I have confidence they can all ride 10 ten. But they are given equipier roles.

Rogers is doing ok on that one. And if Porte didn't crash a few times he would be up there for sure.

 

[blackcat]

Think there is a valid claim on the Sky Brailsfor July target.

No other team is given the freedom for 12 months.


sky have had this objective since last july. Sky have that luxury. Because, like Armstrong and Postal (NO irony intended, I am making a point), they have one race that matters, and have to turn up and perform in July. Nothing else matters. They have brought one team together, for most of the year, besides Cav's spint domestiques, with the eye on peaking now.

They dont have to earn their keep, for the first 4 months of the season. OK, they may well have already paid down, and put a deposit on "performance" in the first months. But this was secondary to the one aim, it was an ancillary byproduct, of the peak now.

I am thinking Froome, might just have the legs to last this out. Because he is one, who has not dug deep at any point this season, with his later start from illness. (yeah yeah, that may contradict the point I was making in the first part of this post )

 

[pugdog]

actuallly, if you peruse the history of all of the sky team, they are blue chip, they aint donkeys.

.........\

They aint monkeys.

Neither were US Postal, T-Mobile, Festina, Kelme, Liberty Seguros, La Vie Claire etc etc etc.

 

[blackcat]

touche

it is what it is. They are just doing everything better

 

[Franklin]

Blackcat, why did Sky hire these particular staff members? To play bridge?

And even if you intend NO IRONY with comparing their build up with USPS, it's so thick that it's not even worth discussing.

Nothing mentioned so far in this thread has done anything but showing how suspicious Sky is. From the staff to the riders past to the build up to the performance... There isn't one area where it looks remotely clean.

The medical team running gag I run in this thread is just an example. No answers yet

=> On a side note, not picking a fight with you (I know your stance is less than naive) or anyone else for that matter, not even the hardcore Skyfans. I'm just pointing out a part of the puzzle that's incredibly damning. If all other pieces fit the mould as well, what else can we think?

 

[blackcat]

yep. thats the sport.

Not gonna get a gift rapped conviction on a platter.

 

[ilrumne]

Think there is a valid claim on the Sky Brailsfor July target.

No other team is given the freedom for 12 months.


sky have had this objective since last july. Sky have that luxury. Because, like Armstrong and Postal (NO irony intended, I am making a point), they have one race that matters, and have to turn up and perform in July. Nothing else matters. They have brought one team together, for most of the year, besides Cav's spint domestiques, with the eye on peaking now.

They dont have to earn their keep, for the first 4 months of the season. OK, they may well have already paid down, and put a deposit on "performance" in the first months. But this was secondary to the one aim, it was an ancillary byproduct, of the peak now.

I am thinking Froome, might just have the legs to last this out. Because he is one, who has not dug deep at any point this season, with his later start from illness. (yeah yeah, that may contradict the point I was making in the first part of this post )

The freedom of a year, where they didn't succeed in anything?
Wiggins was very bad indeed, preparing for this Tour .
I mean, what about the other contendors? Gesink, Mollema, VDB, Nibali, Menchov, Sanchez, the whole BMC team... Did they have a lot more of pressure on them? Don't think so. You're defending them in a way it's not rational. Look at the performance of the Dauphine and yesterday yourself, it just stinks.

 

[blackcat]

I dont dispute the "performance". I dispute the opinion, that this is the reason, and this is unique in this sport. You should open you eyes, and take a look at the history of the sport.

NB: "the Tour is the cleanest in years" is the common meme, and apocryphal to boot. It is rolled out, year after year.

 

[Cavalier]

I dont dispute the "performance". I dispute the opinion, that this is the reason, and this is unique in this sport. You should open you eyes, and take a look at the history of the sport.

NB: "the Tour is the cleanest in years" is the common meme, and apocryphal to boot. It is rolled out, year after year.

So it's ok for Sky to be doping, because everyone else is? That's the most baffling strawman I've seen, year after year.

 

[Runitout]

You can't accuse a team of doping simply because they ride well.

But in the modern (GdI 1990 onwards) era, (to the best of my recollection) every single time a team has had three riders demolishing the opposition team leaders, there has been a proven team-wide doping program, or several members busted. PDM, Gewiss-Ballan, Kelme, ONCE, Mapei, USPS, Astana, Libery Seguros, T-Mobile, Saunier Duval. The list goes on...

So a level of cynicism from seasoned cycling fans is somewhat to be expected. To me, what happened in the Dauphine and again today was a very distressing thing, because I have smelt this particular odour so many times before.

I don't know which is worse - confirmation that the past has never left us, or doping allegations against what may well be a genuinely clean team. But cycling's history means that suspicion is never an unreasonable stance for a cycling fan to take.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Hi folks, long time since I posted here, hope your all in good health and enjoying cyclings equivelent of pro wrestling. Its been a while coming but from the dodgy back room staff, to the Tenerife training camp, to the patently absured and insulting "reasons" given for Sky,s domination the description "UK Postal" is most apt.
To see Froome and Wiggo , within minutes of the stage finish look as fresh the day before the prolouge , all clear eyed and bushy tailed while Evens eyes were blood shot and he looked, as well he should, utterly knackered, was just to blatant to be ignored.
As a Brit im expected to " waive the flag" for this UK registered team almost as some kinda obligation yet last I looked Sky was owned by the slimiest Australian ever to grace the planet and the team is a multi national one. Its about as British as my 4 nation ancestry.
I feel I must appologise for many of fellow country mens tempory loss of trust in there own eye sight and capacity for critical reasoning. The dream of a yellow jersey does strange things to the mind it seems.
Frankly its embarrissing.

 

[blackcat]

So it's ok for Sky to be doping, because everyone else is? That's the most baffling strawman I've seen, year after year.

I would prefer to stick my head under the sand, and believe in clean sport, and everyone is clean.

I think it is "OK" because the peloton create their own norms, and play by the rules they set themselves, that the public are not privy to.

"Its not doping if it does not show up."

"Recovery therapy is not doping."

The main flaw I can see, is that this exposes the sport to political interference, and fraud. And especially, creating criminals of athletes, by endorsing and encouraging cross border transportation of drugs, see:Festina, and off-label use. But Olympic sport has always in the modern era, been harnessed by states for the purposes of propaganda, and the ubermensch.

If you want my answer, like "It is not ok to dope", "I disagree with doping", "Sky are flouting the doping regulation and flat-out cheating", this is too simplistic. I was of the position, these positions held above. But once I was exposed to the reality of the "game", I realised the problem layed less with them, and more with "me".

So I will stay neutral, but attempt to disabuse some of the myths and the apocryphal memes like "cleanest year".

sorry to be so incoherent and turgid. If you give me a wide breadth, I think you will discern some logic there, and my Switzerland pov.

 

[Darryl Webster]

I think you will discern some logic there, and my Switzerland pov.

Bit of an unfortunate analogy given there history as Adolfs bankers,

....no offence meant.

 

[blackcat]

Sky was owned by the slimiest Australian ever to grace the planet and the team is a multi national one. Its about as British as my 4 nation ancestry.

hey, not so fast, was he not educated at Oxford?

and News owns something like 38% of Sky, and the Murdochs own only 5% of News, but they have dual class shares that give them the controlling stake, and have the board captured, but this is changing now, with the division...

which... must have been done with the eye at taking a second tilt at the Sky takeover, which would be the jewel in his asset base in the new entertainment coompany, just behind Fox.

 

[blackcat]

Bit of an unfortunate analogy given there history as Adolfs bankers,

....no offence meant.

Sverige then

 

[Franklin]

I dont dispute the "performance". I dispute the opinion, that this is the reason, and this is unique in this sport. You should open you eyes, and take a look at the history of the sport.

There is a question here... why are some teams better than others and the year before/after they fade? If we look into some of the more remarkable teams we find a constant factor: The medical team makes and breaks a team.

Jose Ibarguren Taus

All his teams did quite well and when he left the teams they declined. Add to this that his clients have been shown to be dopers. Add to this that he has been accused many times.

Clearly when a doctor comes and goes the performance of teams change. Thus all doctors are not equal. And it also makes blanket statements "all are doping anyways" invallidated. there clearly are important differences.

 

[blackcat]

There is a question here... why are some teams better than others and the year before/after they fade? If we look into some of the more remarkable teams we find a constant factor: The medical team makes and breaks a team.

Jose Ibarguren Taus

All his teams did quite well and when he left the teams they declined. Add to this that his clients have been shown to be dopers. Add to this that he has been accused many times.

Clearly when a doctor comes and goes the performance of teams change. Thus all doctors are not equal. And it also makes blanket statements "all are doping anyways" invallidated. there clearly are important differences.

I agree with your point Franklin.

I would also posit, pharmaceuticals accelerate burnout, and disillusionment.

They can also prolong careers, and advance potential.

But they do, in anecdotal observation, prompt the risk of burnout. Adolescents who saw only high ideals and stars in their eyes, hit their prime of life, and question.

 

[Cavalier]

I would prefer to stick my head under the sand, and believe in clean sport, and everyone is clean.

I think it is "OK" because the peloton create their own norms, and play by the rules they set themselves, that the public are not privy to.

And by that they then dupe the public, who ultimately pay for the sport. It's not ok, under any circumstances, under any hidden set of rules, and it never ever will be. No myth or meme will make that an acceptable viewpoint to take, or one in which any decent person permits to pass them by unchecked.

There is no acceptable premise to dope. If you wouldn't win without doping, great - don't dope, and lose with integrity and decency. Or do the right thing, and speak up, so that the world doesn't have to suffer watching it happen, and the next generation doesn't have to suffer having to do it.

There's no excuse for inaction, no excuse for apathy and no excuse for acceptance.

 

[blackcat]

Franklin, file that away to Baden Cooke's "custard" theory

However, Cooke has had a chance to talk with Petacchi after the Tour at the races. "He's just a normal bloke, he seems like a good guy," Cooke said of the 'gentleman sprinter'. "If he continues like he did this year then he'll be very hard to beat, but he's got to get himself to the finish," he said.

Even so, Cooke is a little wary of the rider's sudden arrival as a sprinter. "Before the age of 28, it's like he never did a thing, so with riders like that, where they have a really big year, it's possible they could back to where they were before. He may not be able to pull the skin off a custard."

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/riders/2003/interviews/?id=baden_cooke03-2

 

[blackcat]

And by that they then dupe the public, who ultimately pay for the sport. It's not ok, under any circumstances, under any hidden set of rules, and it never ever will be. No myth or meme will make that an acceptable viewpoint to take, or one in which any decent person permits to pass them by unchecked.

There is no acceptable premise to dope. If you wouldn't win without doping, great - don't dope, and lose with integrity and decency. Or do the right thing, and speak up, so that the world doesn't have to suffer watching it happen, and the next generation doesn't have to suffer having to do it.

There's no excuse for inaction, no excuse for apathy and no excuse for acceptance.

have you followed my posting history and presence. I basically, call it as I see it, and seek to disabuse the common misconceptions that are held.

I am not an apologist for Sky. If you are exposed to my history, you would know that.

 

[Franklin]

I would also posit, pharmaceuticals accelerate burnout, and disillusionment.

They can also prolong careers, and advance potential.

The problem is that we can't really see what falls to the side of the peloton (those dopers that are packfodder). For the absolute top it seems to prolong their careers (just my opinion, not researched).

I find a corrupt team a bigger blight than a doped rider. Because the doped rider might pay a price: he can get caught and he can suffer medical consequences. The staff essentially get's a risk-free ride and keep on corrupting riders.

 

[hrotha]

About Yates' quote regarding Sagan and the Armstrongification thereof: I really believe even the heaviest dopers tend to end up believing the dope was just a little extra, just to keep up with their peers, and that it was all in their legs all along.