Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[webbie146]

We need terminator Lance back to derail the sky train

Quote Armstrong
"So when I say I beat his record by 45 seconds… but I also cranked out 495 watts for more than 30 minutes so…laughs…I knew we were in a good position."

But seriously i think they should allow Bruyneel to work with Michelle Ferrari in 2013. This way it's more fair lol Let's assume the Schlecks stay with Bruyneel in 2013. It would be a epic battle.. Sky versus Ferrari's Radioshack

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Anthony McCrossan ‏@antmccrossan So, Britain as we stand have @bradwiggins in yellow of ‪#tdf‬ the world champion with 21 ‪#tdf‬ stg wins @MarkCavendish. Top nation in cycling!

Anthony McCrossan ‏@antmccrossan
Re-watching the ‪#tdf‬. What a ride Michael Rogers does for @bradwiggins on the final climb.

 

[Benotti69]

actuallly, if you peruse the history of all of the sky team, they are blue chip, they aint donkeys.

Kansta Siutsov rode high into the top teens, by the latter of his first Tour with Barloworld, where he was threatening the white jersey when he would'a been 23ish. Quality. Quality.

they have left our Lovqvist for chrissakes.

Team Sky, are great. Rogers a 10th in a Tour, as the all round domestique. Ricie Porte getting mungrel duty on the mountains, has showed potential as a GC rider in 2010 Giro.

They aint monkeys.

Rogers top tenned, 9th TdF 2006 while riding for T-Mobile on their program!

Talented for sure with a lot of help.

TeamSky are great at marginal gains.

 

[Ferminal]

I would prefer to stick my head under the sand, and believe in clean sport, and everyone is clean.

I think it is "OK" because the peloton create their own norms, and play by the rules they set themselves, that the public are not privy to.

"Its not doping if it does not show up."

"Recovery therapy is not doping."

The main flaw I can see, is that this exposes the sport to political interference, and fraud. And especially, creating criminals of athletes, by endorsing and encouraging cross border transportation of drugs, see:Festina, and off-label use. But Olympic sport has always in the modern era, been harnessed by states for the purposes of propaganda, and the ubermensch.

If you want my answer, like "It is not ok to dope", "I disagree with doping", "Sky are flouting the doping regulation and flat-out cheating", this is too simplistic. I was of the position, these positions held above. But once I was exposed to the reality of the "game", I realised the problem layed less with them, and more with "me".

So I will stay neutral, but attempt to disabuse some of the myths and the apocryphal memes like "cleanest year".

sorry to be so incoherent and turgid. If you give me a wide breadth, I think you will discern some logic there, and my Switzerland pov.

Well said Mr. Cat.

 

[Maxiton]

Hi folks, long time since I posted here, hope your all in good health and enjoying cyclings equivelent of pro wrestling. Its been a while coming but from the dodgy back room staff, to the Tenerife training camp, to the patently absured and insulting "reasons" given for Sky,s domination the description "UK Postal" is most apt.
To see Froome and Wiggo , within minutes of the stage finish look as fresh the day before the prolouge , all clear eyed and bushy tailed while Evens eyes were blood shot and he looked, as well he should, utterly knackered, was just to blatant to be ignored.
As a Brit im expected to " waive the flag" for this UK registered team almost as some kinda obligation yet last I looked Sky was owned by the slimiest Australian ever to grace the planet and the team is a multi national one. Its about as British as my 4 nation ancestry.
I feel I must appologise for many of fellow country mens tempory loss of trust in there own eye sight and capacity for critical reasoning. The dream of a yellow jersey does strange things to the mind it seems.
Frankly its embarrissing.

Well said. Welcome back.

 

[meat puppet]

About Yates' quote regarding Sagan and the Armstrongification thereof: I really believe even the heaviest dopers tend to end up believing the dope was just a little extra, just to keep up with their peers, and that it was all in their legs all along.

This. Repetition is the key. The ultimate proof is that many politicians do believe in what say.

As for Team Sky, Libertine put it well yesterday. One had to laugh in order not to cry. Let's see if they, too, will rinse and repeat. Then the questions might start turning into answers, if they are naive enough to step into the trap they themselves made...

Twiggo is one thing, but Froomy basically brutalizing Cadel in a Cadel finish takes the cake. What in the world did the guy ever do between Vuelta and yesterday, anyway?

And yet another thing: the rouleurs dropping established climbers. On an Olympic year. Adds up. This is like eating the cake.

In other words, agree with what blackcat wrote: its the fact that doping lends the sport to corruption and politics that bugs me the most.

Murdoch...

 

[Caruut]

As has been touched on before, and after thinking about it for a while, I think there are 2 things that really hurt me most about this display. Firstly, that it is being done in the name of clean cycling. Sure, play the game - it's pro cycling, we know that things like this happen. I personally think there is an element to doping that is morally okay (it is very much a grey area, to me), but if you proclaim an anti-doping stance, I think it turns black. The second is that it's being done in the name of Britain. I'm not a nationalist by any means, but I do feel that when they attempt to associate themselves with my country, I feel like they're making me look like a **** by association.

 

[Caruut]

Some quotes from the highlights show today;

Phil Liggett at 1.3km from the finish:
"Chris Froome is burying himself now, he will peel off soon, once he's done all he can"

Chris Froome after the stage:
"Just goes to show how important course recon is"

Bradley Wiggins after the stage
"Froomey won the stage, which was just mind-blowing."

Mick Rogers
"Well, it's just what we've been doing all year, from the Algarve, Paris-Nice, Romandie, Dauphiné, now here. Amazing."

Dave Brailsford on the phone during today's stage:
"As the riders see that the group is thinning out, it gives them more belief and more confidence."

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Mick Rogers
"Well, it's just what we've been doing all year, from the Algarve, Paris-Nice, Romandie, Dauphiné, now here. Amazing."

This is what's so galling really. Even in the days of the USPS train, it only rocked up once in a while. But this is a group of riders who have controlled and dominated every race they've entered all year. The only races Wiggins has entered without winning are Algarve - where he only didn't win because Porte was up the road - and Catalunya where he did the sensible thing and climbed off on the Port-Ainé stage.

Froome is excepted from that; he had a perfect 0 next to his name on CQ for 2012 until the last day of Romandie, where he got 5 points for finishing the race. His Bilharzia, which had gone away just long enough for him to podium a GT, help Britain win the World Championships and get him a new, more lucrative contract after Sky were about to consign him to the scrap heap, sadly caught up with him again and ruined his season all the way up to Tour preparation.

But the rest of them have been in non-stop form for five months now. And while it's possible for the occasional rider to be that good for a period, not even Contador has dominated the stage racing calendar to the extent Wiggins has been doing.

 

[GoneWithTailWind]

I would prefer to stick my head under the sand, and believe in clean sport, and everyone is clean.

I think it is "OK" because the peloton create their own norms, and play by the rules they set themselves, that the public are not privy to.

"Its not doping if it does not show up."

"Recovery therapy is not doping."

The main flaw I can see, is that this exposes the sport to political interference, and fraud. And especially, creating criminals of athletes, by endorsing and encouraging cross border transportation of drugs, see:Festina, and off-label use. But Olympic sport has always in the modern era, been harnessed by states for the purposes of propaganda, and the ubermensch.

If you want my answer, like "It is not ok to dope", "I disagree with doping", "Sky are flouting the doping regulation and flat-out cheating", this is too simplistic. I was of the position, these positions held above. But once I was exposed to the reality of the "game", I realised the problem layed less with them, and more with "me".

So I will stay neutral, but attempt to disabuse some of the myths and the apocryphal memes like "cleanest year".

sorry to be so incoherent and turgid. If you give me a wide breadth, I think you will discern some logic there, and my Switzerland pov.

Worth keeping in mind how the 'milieu' develop and maintain their own norms.

After spending half the day reading through this thread and then seeing Cadel being interviewed I failed to detect anything resembling resentment.

Can't help thinking though about Bassons writing I his column how the peloloton was 'disgusted' in 99 with LA's performance.

 

[Square-pedaller]

... it's being done in the name of Britain. I'm not a nationalist by any means, but I do feel that when they attempt to associate themselves with my country, I feel like they're making me look like a **** by association.

I'm British, too.

The performace yesterday made me embarrassed, saddened and ultimately angry. I would dearly love Britain to do well in sports, but this wasn't doing well, it was cheating.

Personally, I'd like to see no doping in sports, but having followed cycling since the late 1990s, now accept that the majority of (at least) cyclists are doping to some extent. However, as someone upthread pointed out, Sky have raised the stakes and will push the peloton (back) into more intensive doping. This destroys any enjoyment I might have had from watching them win.

 

[DominicDecoco]

I often read in here that the face of a rider can change and could suggest doping usage.

Does that go with arms as well? If you know what I mean..

 

[Ferminal]

Keenan just said that Rogers said he produced his best numbers ever yesterday.

What a troll.

 

[The Hitch]

But the rest of them have been in non-stop form for five months now. And while it's possible for the occasional rider to be that good for a period, not even Contador has dominated the stage racing calendar to the extent Wiggins has been doing.

Well in his defense here, the stage races have all been so perfectly suited to him. All tt based with just enough hills to drop the likes of Canc and t mart had they been bothered, but not anywhere near enough to let people challenge him.

Tony Martin was also owning in a number of stage races last year, in the same way wiggins has been.

In a case against Wiggins i would not say that him being on peak for 3 races before is that big a deal. If only because this is a guy who has an Armstrong like obsession with the Tour and would clearly, in a heartbeat, choose to never win a single other race in his life if it meant he could win the Tour.

 

[asdfgh101]

It's the magical number. The one number that can kill everyone. Quote 480 and the other teams already know they can't win. No one can hold 480+ longer than 15 minutes bar Sky. It's a reminder to all the other teams not to try anything early. Just hold on otherwise we'll hunt you down.

What we saw today will only do one thing...... the doping arms race will get stepped up again. To combat Sky next year every other team will have to get programs. Just when teams were beginning to mix and match riders again we're about to see a return to single leader teams.

Nothing about today was positive for cycling. It was a step back. I can guarantee that no Sky rider will test positive. We have to hope the French Police do their jobs.

If you're looking for the Floyd Landos whistleblower on Sky I'd say Cav will blow the hat of proceedings in 2-3 years time. He knows it's bullsh1t what they're doing.

1. The problem with sophisticated doping is that all programmes are not equal.

2. Is Cavendish so naive as to not realise what he was walking into? What is to be said of his 4kg weight loss and climbing at Ster? When weighing up the pros and cons of joining Sky it makes more sense if he was intrigued by what could be acheived with theirs sports science.

3. Who is really squeaky clean? Millar ("Contador's consistency show that he is clean"), Vaughters (the riders he has hired, Wiggins transformation, CVV (who even Armstrong called out), Hesjedal), F. Schleck (Fuente's outside consultancy service), obviously we could all go on.

 

[Gloin22]

Lol, they are not exactly beating world class competition are they ?

Most are injured and we don't have Contador and Andy here, two of best climbers.

 

[samerics]

No question, it looks suspicious. However, we have no proof, no biological passport info, nothing, and for people to say it is out and out cheating is wrong. It may look that way to many, but innocent until proven guilty. Or in cyclings case, until you get caught or people start talking. Until then, this is all opinion. If they are doping then they are @rseholes, but please, stop expressing opinion as fact, let's wait and see first. I have an open mind, I believed Armstrong but ended up despising him, let's see how it pans out, fair?

 

[thehog]

No question, it looks suspicious. However, we have no proof, no biological passport info, nothing, and for people to say it is out and out cheating is wrong. It may look that way to many, but innocent until proven guilty. Or in cyclings case, until you get caught or people start talking. Until then, this is all opinion. If they are doping then they are @rseholes, but please, stop expressing opinion as fact, let's wait and see first. I have an open mind, I believed Armstrong but ended up despising him, let's see how it pans out, fair?

No. People just need to trust their own judgement. We've all seen enough here over 20+ years of watching cycling to know what we're seeing. If we based on positives and innocent until proven guilty then we'd most certainly be beating up on the wrong guys! that's 100% for sure!

 

[Franklin]

No question, it looks suspicious. However, we have no proof, no biological passport info, nothing, and for people to say it is out and out cheating is wrong. It may look that way to many, but innocent until proven guilty. Or in cyclings case, until you get caught or people start talking. Until then, this is all opinion. If they are doping then they are @rseholes, but please, stop expressing opinion as fact, let's wait and see first. I have an open mind, I believed Armstrong but ended up despising him, let's see how it pans out, fair?

I'm sorry that we are using facts against Sky. The fact of their team structure, of the riders background, of the background of the only ones who can keep up. I wish these facts were not there.

The defenders only have opinion, belief.

Sorry, you really have this one backwards. All facts point that we have to be VERY suspicious about Sky.

 

[samerics]

I'm sorry that we are using facts against Sky. The fact of their team structure, of the riders background, of the background of the only ones who can keep up. I wish these facts were not there.

The defenders only have opinion, belief.

Sorry, you really have this one backwards. All facts point that we have to be VERY suspicious about Sky.

I said it looked suspicious, I don't have it backwards at all. The point is that you have nothing at this stage other than putting those things together, but these are not facts, just opinions based on the team structure. Suspicious, yes, any proof against the riders, no. FACT.

 

[hrotha]

I said it looked suspicious, I don't have it backwards at all. The point is that you have nothing at this stage other than putting those things together, but these are not facts, just opinions based on the team structure. Suspicious, yes, any proof against the riders, no. FACT.

And that's why we're not issuing suspensions. We're not a court. We're stating our opinions, based on experience. It doesn't look merely suspicious, it almost looks definite, and we're free to voice that opinion. You can try to argue why we shouldn't believe they're doped to the gills, but this strategy you're using of "there's no proof" is not going to fly here. Because we're not a court. We're invidivuals making up our own minds.

 

[samerics]

And that's why we're not issuing suspensions. We're not a court. We're stating our opinions, based on experience. It doesn't look merely suspicious, it almost looks definite, and we're free to voice that opinion. You can try to argue why we shouldn't believe they're doped to the gills, but this strategy you're using of "there's no proof" is not going to fly here. Because we're not a court. We're invidivuals making up our own minds.

The reason I persist with this isn't because I have complete faith in Sky, certainly not, but because there ARE people on here who state their opinions as fact, and some preposterously outlandish comments, like Hog's fr instance. There are opinions on here that I respect, but I wonder why some on here still watch the sport!

 

[Ripper]

Decanio was a nut, but I remember his writing about doing a race with Rogers. Decanio yelled at Rogers that he was riding clean. Rogers gave him the stink eye.

If Rogers is performing well then you know that something is up. He is the Australian Leipheimer, only a lot less successful.

LMFAO. And other than a certain set of TTs, I'd say a great deal less successful!

 

[simo1733]

The reason I persist with this isn't because I have complete faith in Sky, certainly not, but because there ARE people on here who state their opinions as fact, and some preposterously outlandish comments, like Hog's fr instance. There are opinions on here that I respect, but I wonder why some on here still watch the sport!

Good points.I wonder given some peoples certainty of Sky's doping, do they think that the ASO should pull them out of the race?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

There are opinions on here that I respect, but I wonder why some on here still watch the sport!

This year, I've found myself asking the same question, don't worry.