Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Caruut]

I have no idea, though I am not sure what relevance pre- or post-EPO has to do with the argument.

The argument is about whether a change in focus of training can improve an athlete's performance in a different event. If you are saying it is impossible without drugs then how do you explain mountain bikers who make the switch?

How many riders have ridden the roads whilst focussing on pursuits? I suspect not that many. A more useful parallel would be if Cadel had ridden the Tour in the years after he first switched - he rode 2 GTs in his first 3 years on the road.

Well I did say late 20s on...so mea culpa

My point was not specific to cycling, but about endurance athletes in general. As I said in runners it is not at all unusual for athletes well into their 30s to be still competing at high levels.

Before the rise of EPO, there were pretty much no rouleurs making a quick transition to GT contender. After than, we have riders like Mig, Riis, Lance and Ullrich winning GTs.

 

[The Cobra]

Sorry mate. Garmin were doing it well before Sky.

I love how a fan attends one race and thinks it gives them special insight into the inner workings of a professional team.

Dream on Sonny Jim. You've seen nothing!

Ok then, I bow down to your superior knowledge. I can only report on what I saw, which was no one doing a proper warming down. If you know better, than fair enough.

 

[The Real GFY]

Nice try to belittle the point. Doesnt make it any less true though does it? Marginal gains and all that.

But I forgot to add marginal gains as well as training in blocks instead of racing too much. All the reasons one can perform at a world class level are, of course, true.

I guess things could be different in the UK (although I doubt it), but many cycling teams have already been doing this. None of it explains the transformational change of so many riders on one team. That all of the cyclists who went to Tennerife were not following these strategies bumps past my suspension of disbelief.

However, this language always satisfies those who really want/need to believe, as well as the fanboys.

 

[mastersracer]

Sorry mate. Garmin were doing it well before Sky.

I love how a fan attends one race and thinks it gives them special insight into the inner workings of a professional team.

Dream on Sonny Jim. You've seen nothing!

because arguing who first jumped on a trainer after a race is incredibly relevant to determining doping practices. Just like those invisible 14% grades you seem to find on final climbs. I'm sure somewhere in your comments is a suspicion that Sky have teamed up with aliens.

 

[Franklin]

“To all the people who are suspicious of performance, sport is all about performance, so you have to have more than performance as a basis for your suspicion,” he says. “We can’t be suspicous of everybody who performs without some other reason to be suspicious. I think it’s quite sad.

You mean like changing your ideas about clean teams, hiring doctors, using a DS associated with the biggest con in cycling history?

So Kerrison basically agrees we have all the reason to be very suspicous?

“We have been open about the process, and we invite everyone to look at the method behind what we do. We’d be losing our competitive advantage if we gave away all the details of that method, but the actual process behind it, we’ve been very open about.”

True, except that they haven't been transparent at all.

The blood data? Pulled. Hiring Leinders? A big secret as he isn't listed on the Sky site.

This is really odd... here we have Kerrison basically telling lies. Of course, I'm aloonie for even daring to point out the facts

 

[Franklin]

because arguing who first jumped on a trainer after a race is incredibly relevant to determining doping practices. Just like those invisible 14% grades you seem to find on final climbs. I'm sure somewhere in your comments is a suspicion that Sky have teamed up with aliens.

MR, why don't you stop with the "this little thing, that really could be possible if all stars alligned" and look at the whole picture. How much circumstantial evidence, lies and flipflops do we need before you allow us to question the one you believe in?

You obviously by now should have realized that it's belief against facts and that those facts are damned hard to poohpooh away.

 

[poupou]

Before the rise of EPO, there were pretty much no rouleurs making a quick transition to GT contender. After than, we have riders like Mig, Riis, Lance and Ullrich winning GTs.

That is because "big" people benefits more of oxygen vector doping, so "big ****" can compete with mountain goats on cols.

 

[andy1234]

Ok then, I bow down to your superior knowledge. I can only report on what I saw, which was no one doing a proper warming down. If you know better, than fair enough.

Don't give in just because the Hog says you should.

Sometimes he just lies.

I can't recall a single time I have seen an entire team doing an organised warm down after a roadstage in the tour. In fact I can't recall any individuals sitting on a Turbo after a road stage in the tour.

 

[Digger]

Don't give in just because the Hog says you should.

Sometimes he just lies.

I can't recall a single time I have seen an entire team doing an organised warm down after a roadstage in the tour. In fact I can't recall any individuals sitting on a Turbo after a road stage in the tour.

He's right...you're wrong....I've seen it myself...Lance and Radioshack and Garmin etc were doing it three years ago.
Next...
On top of that riders have been riding down off mountains for decades to save time in order to get to hotels. But that isn't a turbo trainer so it doesn't count!!

 

[Bonkstrong]

because arguing who first jumped on a trainer after a race is incredibly relevant to determining doping practices. Just like those invisible 14% grades you seem to find on final climbs. I'm sure somewhere in your comments is a suspicion that Sky have teamed up with aliens.

Don't forget that The Hog also thinks Bradley Wiggins is dominating the tour more than anyone ever has in the history of cycling - a claim even more absurd than LA fanboys claiming the 7 wins were done clean -

So, Hogster, for LA we obviously have the smoking gun EPO samples. You seem to be the authority in this here clinic so could you please point me in the direction of the smoking gun evidence that Sky are doping? Please don't come back with circumstantial rubbish, we've had 200+ pages of it and the conspiracy theories are getting tiresome.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Don't give in just because the Hog says you should.

Sometimes he just lies.

I can't recall a single time I have seen an entire team doing an organised warm down after a roadstage in the tour. In fact I can't recall any individuals sitting on a Turbo after a road stage in the tour.

The GB track team have been doing this for a while. I assume that this is where , for the Sky team, it originated from. I, like you, don't remember it happening in road racing. TheHog will no doubt use this as (more) proof of doping since they are so strong they continue racing even after the stage.

 

[andy1234]

He's right...you're wrong....I've seen it myself...Lance and Radioshack and Garmin etc were doing it three years ago.
Next...
On top of that riders have been riding down off mountains for decades to save time in order to get to hotels. But that isn't a turbo trainer so it doesn't count!!

Interesting
Where did you see them doing this?
Which race, which stage?

 

[taiwan]

...I was talking about maximum power, whereas you seem to be talking about aerobic power endurance.

Yes you're right, I misunderstood the first post I quoted. Talking about peak power now though, I do doubt that it's loss would be fully compensated for by the decrease in mass.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

He's right...you're wrong....I've seen it myself...Lance and Radioshack and Garmin etc were doing it three years ago.

You may be right. I don't recall that I must admit.

On top of that riders have been riding down off mountains for decades to save time in order to get to hotels. But that isn't a turbo trainer so it doesn't count!!

Not sure coasting down a hill is the same thing... Don't you have to be at a certain level of exertion for a certain amount of time for you to get any benefit?

 

[Digger]

Interesting
Where did you see them doing this?
Which race, which stage?

2008 and 2009...Dauphine 2008 and the tour the following year...look man accept it you're wrong. Stop embarassing yourself any further.

 

[Franklin]

So, Hogster, for LA we obviously have the smoking gun EPO samples. You seem to be the authority in this here clinic so could you please point me in the direction of the smoking gun evidence that Sky are doping? Please don't come back with circumstantial rubbish, we've had 200+ pages of it and the conspiracy theories are getting tiresome.

Ok Bonkie, as we have the undeniable facts laid out (Flipflops and smoke and mirrors), why aren't we allowed to be very suspicious?

Your belief obviously rests on nothing more than well... belief. It's a bit odd that those with the facts on their side are being berated to be very critical, whereas the believers act like the wise ones.

I prefer facts over faith, but it seems that is a very tough one to swallow for some people here.

 

[Digger]

You may be right. I don't recall that I must admit.


Not sure coasting down a hill is the same thing... Don't you have to be at a certain level of exertion for a certain amount of time for you to get any benefit?

Seriously guys I cannot believe yee are believing this tripe.

 

[blackcat]

Tim Kerrison: the man behind Bradley Wiggins’ Tour

http://www.cyclesportmag.com/features/tim-kerrison-the-man-behind-bradley-wiggins’-tour/

For the first year Kerrison mainly observed. He agrees now with Brailsford’s conclusion at the end of that 2010 season that many of the riders simply were not fit enough. “At the end of the year Dave said we focused too much on the peas and not enough on the steak, and I think he was right. We were looking at all the fancy little things — the hundreds and thousands on the cake, but we forgot about the cake.

excerpts

as BanProCycling would say "one thing we can all agree on, Kerrison has a way with metaphors Proust would respect"

#hundreds_and_thousands

#of_miles_on_the_bike

#Nestle_sell

#2_infants

 

[Cerberus]

I have no idea, though I am not sure what relevance pre- or post-EPO has to do with the argument.

it's relevant because you believe things other than doping can provide that kind of performance gains. Since the only people we can be sure didn't use blood doping are people who rode pre-EPO that total and complete absence of any pre-EPO examples is highly significant.

The argument is about whether a change in focus of training can improve an athlete's performance in a different event. If you are saying it is impossible without drugs then how do you explain mountain bikers who make the switch?

With the risk of sounding like a broken record, give me an example of a mountain biker, or any other rider for that matter who, pre-EPo was consistently bad at GC and then went on to be great. You guys all insist it's possible but the few examples provided all fall ridiculously short of being comparable to the gains Wiggins made.

Well I did say late 20s on...so mea culpa

My point was not specific to cycling, but about endurance athletes in general. As I said in runners it is not at all unusual for athletes well into their 30s to be still competing at high levels.

Still competitive, sure. Farly bad in their twenties and great in their 30's? That I'm more skeptical of. And of cause, while you might have been talkign about runners, running is clearly less relevant to Wiggins example than cycling.

 

[andy1234]

2008 and 2009...Dauphine 2008 and the tour the following year...look man accept it you're wrong. Stop embarassing yourself any further.

I'm far from embarrased, man, Im just asking you a simple question.

You saw whole teams warming down together,after road stages, so I will take your word for it.

With the exception of split stages, I have never seen it myself.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Seriously guys I cannot believe yee are believing this tripe.

Which part? Warming down on bikes?

 

[mastersracer]

MR, why don't you stop with the "this little thing, that really could be possible if all stars alligned" and look at the whole picture. How much circumstantial evidence, lies and flipflops do we need before you allow us to question the one you believe in?

You obviously by now should have realized that it's belief against facts and that those facts are damned hard to poohpooh away.

I'm not even a Sky/Wiggans fan - this tour is pretty dull and Sky's performance is not remarkable in context:

1. A Schleck absent. The remaining RSNT will be fearsome this fall on the masters 35+ circuit. Team not paid and in disarray. F Schleck abdicating before the Tour even starts (because we all know he gets homesick when his BFF isn't there)

2. Contador gone. Too bad because the course was designed to be a Contador killer. The organizers were so afraid of a true mountains route that they neutered those stages so he wouldn't get a huge advantage and make the last 2 weeks of the Tour a foregone conclusion. Lucky for a mediocre climber like Wiggins, who can't respond to Contador accelerations.

3. BMC. Och proves yet again that he can't put together a team to support Evans (plus the fact that he's such a ****$$er that his teammates pretend not to hear his calls for a spare wheel). He gets isolated on the first cat 4 climb of the Tour. Pathetic team management.

3. Once upon a time, 5.9 watts/kg on a final climb was taken as a positive sign of a cleaner peloton. Now we have 5.6. So, the conspiracy theory is that Sky hires a bunch of cat 4 amateurs who can't produce more than 4.5 watts/kg clean.

4. Nibali - whose team is almost as bad as BMC in terms of support - actually depends on Sagan at one point to pace him on a climbing attack. I guess the rest of the team is protesting the fact that Basso's sister isn't allowed on the team bus anymore and have decided to take July off.

5. Olympics. Either skip this Tour or ride it as prep for the Olympics. Now the mass exodus begins.

6. How many rest days before the rest day did the peloton take? Sky is left to set tempo - not to bring back the break - but to ensure they make the time cut. Commentators struggle to find the corresponding term for autobus on a flat stage. Eurosport commentators admitted to hospital after going insane attempting to fill 4 hours or non-stop non-action with debates over whether Skodas are good cars now.

 

[The Cobra]

Ok Bonkie, as we have the undeniable facts laid out (Flipflops and smoke and mirrors), why aren't we allowed to be very suspicious?

Your belief obviously rests on nothing more than well... belief. It's a bit odd that those with the facts on their side are being berated to be very critical, whereas the believers act like the wise ones.

I prefer facts over faith, but it seems that is a very tough one to swallow for some people here.

I agree Franklin, we should be basing this on facts. So where are the facts that Sky dope. I dont see any actual facts, just some very weak circumstantial evidence, and a strong 'belief' that its not possible. The only real fact we have is... Never tested positive!!!

 

[thehog]

Interesting
Where did you see them doing this?
Which race, which stage?

Lim was doing it with Garmin in 2009 and with Radioshack. But of course when Sky do it in 2012 they are the first and is the reason for they super human performance. Don't waste my time with such dribble.

http://bicycling.com/blogs/theleadingedge/2009/06/26/race-results-it’s-not-just-about-the-bike/

Pre-race, the team uses ice vests for cooling while riders spin on the trainers. And in-race, the riders went off in TTs with icepacks under their skinsuits – a strategy that Lim says other teams liberally borrowed last August at the US Pro championships.

June 26th, 2009

 

[Franklin]

I agree Franklin, we should be basing this on facts. So where are the facts that Sky dope. I dont see any actual facts, just some very weak circumstantial evidence, and a strong 'belief' that its not possible. The only real fact we have is... Never tested positive!!!

Well played, well played indeed... whereas I was talking about suspicion, you turn that as if I claim there is fullblown evidence for doping.

Also, very nice to dismiss facts. Let me trot just a few of them out again as you clearly have trouble digesting them.

1. Wiggins wanted teams that have a 1% suspicion of hiring doped doctors to be banned.

=> Sky hired Leinders

2. Michael Rogers happily blurts out power numbers beating those of his Freiburg years.

3. Wiggins denounces dopers and implicates Sastre... and adores Armstong. The amount of evidence against lance certainly dwarves that against Sastre.

Facts, always an enemy of faith

Sorry to have to repeat them again, but I'm willing to do it a few times for you as clearly they are to akward to consider for the true believers.