Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[andy1234]

Lim was doing it with Garmin in 2009 and with Radioshack. But of course when Sky do it in 2012 they are the first and is the reason for they super human performance. Don't waste my time with such dribble.

http://bicycling.com/blogs/theleadingedge/2009/06/26/race-results-it’s-not-just-about-the-bike/

Pre-race, the team uses ice vests for cooling while riders spin on the trainers. And in-race, the riders went off in TTs with icepacks under their skinsuits – a strategy that Lim says other teams liberally borrowed last August at the US Pro championships.

June 26th, 2009

Good article.
When riders get to the team bus after a stage, they......eat.
Oh and they might be allowed to jump in the pool.
Thanks also for highlighting Pre Race the team uses ice vests for cooling while riders spin on the trainers

Firstly, cooling, is not the same as warming down.
Secondly, the ice pack thing was developed within british cycling before the Sydney Olympics.

Dribble....

 

[thehog]

Good article.
When riders get to the team bus they......eat.
Oh and they might be allowed to jump in the pool.

Firstly, cooling, is not the same as warming down.
Secondly, the ice pack thing was developed within british cycling before the Athens Olympics

Dribble....

Which part of "while riders spin on the trainers" did you not understand?

This is different from what Sky claim is new in what way?

Who said anything about the ice pack? Aren't we discussing Sky on their turbos post race?

The original post was:

Lol. Who's the one talking nonesense?? It was not standard practice to see entire teams sitting on the turbo after road stages in the Tour until this year. Wiggins started doing in Paris Nice and people laughed and said it was more mariginal gains crap from Sky. Then he went and won a bunch of races and now everyone is doing it! Call it nonsense if you want, but its also truth!

 

[RownhamHill]

Lim was doing it with Garmin in 2009 and with Radioshack. But of course when Sky do it in 2012 they are the first and is the reason for they super human performance. Don't waste my time with such dribble.

http://bicycling.com/blogs/theleadingedge/2009/06/26/race-results-it’s-not-just-about-the-bike/

Pre-race, the team uses ice vests for cooling while riders spin on the trainers. And in-race, the riders went off in TTs with icepacks under their skinsuits – a strategy that Lim says other teams liberally borrowed last August at the US Pro championships.

June 26th, 2009

H'mmmm, let me first say I have no opinion or care as to who first used turbo trainers for warm-downs. But this article isn't very good evidence that Garmin did. You do know the difference between 'pre' and 'post' right? So in addition to the redundant passage you quote, the article goes on to say:

And when they get to the team bus after the stage, more is waiting – one to two liters of recovery drink, more rice, eggs, yogurt and various condiments for taste, including the all-purpose favorite: Cholula or another hot sauce.

Suitably fueled, the team turns to the thermoregulation phase, with elevation, the NormaTec Space Legs and some low-tech solutions. “If the hotel has a swimming pool, I just have the guys all dive in,” says Lim.

So in sum it makes absolutely no mention of the question in hand.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Which part of "while riders spin on the trainers" did you not understand?

This is different from what Sky claim is new in what way?

Who said anything about the ice pack? Aren't we discussing Sky on their turbos post race?

I think the Pre Race part was important there (but just guessing).

 

[Caruut]

I agree Franklin, we should be basing this on facts. So where are the facts that Sky dope. I dont see any actual facts, just some very weak circumstantial evidence, and a strong 'belief' that its not possible. The only real fact we have is... Never tested positive!!!

This is not a court of law. There are very few facts either way, so we must rely on what our eyes and heads tell us. It needn't be that way - a non-corrupt governing body and teams who follow up on their promises of transparency might give us confidence in the testing and the teams. This is not a school sports day, this is pro-cycling.

 

[andy1234]

Which part of "while riders spin on the trainers" did you not understand?

This is different from what Sky claim is new in what way?

Who said anything about the ice pack? Aren't we discussing Sky on their turbos post race?

Riders have always warmed up on their trainers before races, you know that, you little kidder.

We are talking about warming DOWN, after each ROAD stage.
You know, when riders are fecked, and just want to sit down in the bus.

Allegedly Garmin and Radioshack have been doing it for years now, so you should know this.

 

[iZnoGouD]

Still competitive, sure. Farly bad in their twenties and great in their 30's? That I'm more skeptical of. And of cause, while you might have been talkign about runners, running is clearly less relevant to Wiggins example than cycling.

I don't find that hard too believe, Wiggins has only starded training for road cycling in the last few years, it's normal that he is peaking at that now.
It's true that most riders peak in their 20's but when you can see examples of many endurance athletes that hit their peak in thei 30's, as an example you have Carlos Lopes who set a world marathon record at the ripe old age of 38

 

[The Cobra]

Well played, well played indeed... whereas I was talking about suspicion, you turn that as if I claim there is fullblown evidence for doping.

Also, very nice to dismiss facts. Let me trot just a few of them out again as you clearly have trouble digesting them.

1. Wiggins wanted teams that have a 1% suspicion of hiring doped doctors to be banned.

=> Sky hired Leinders

2. Michael Rogers happily blurts out power numbers beating those of his Freiburg years.

3. Wiggins denounces dopers and implicates Sastre... and adores Armstong. The amount of evidence against lance certainly dwarves that against Sastre.

Facts, always an enemy of faith

Sorry to have to repeat them again, but I'm willing to do it a few times for you as clearly they are to akward to consider for the true believers.

1) This is all you've really got and I'd love for someone to really pin down Brailsford and get a straight answer out of him on this one. But how does this prove that he is doping Sky now? It's not totally impossible that people can change. Half of Garmin is full of ex dopers but regarded as clean now.

2) Rogers said his threshold had increased. But compared to when, the last few years probably. If he was producing more than in his Freiburg years he sure wouldnt be a domestique for Wiggins.

3) Wiggins has denounced plenty of dopers. What do you expect him say regarding Lance?? Anyone who speaks out has a world of **** coming there way from the Armstrong fanboys. Maybe he doesnt want to deal with that. Is it hypocritical, yeah. Doesn't mean he's doping either. On the whole Wiggins has spoken out against doping a hell of a lot more than most.

Again, there are no real facts that prove Sky are doping. Positive tests, nope. Eye witnesses, nope. Police raids, nope. You guys are clutching at straws.

 

[AcademyCC]

I'm not even a Sky/Wiggans fan - this tour is pretty dull and Sky's performance is not remarkable in context:

1. A Schleck absent. The remaining RSNT will be fearsome this fall on the masters 35+ circuit. Team not paid and in disarray. F Schleck abdicating before the Tour even starts (because we all know he gets homesick when his BFF isn't there)

2. Contador gone. Too bad because the course was designed to be a Contador killer. The organizers were so afraid of a true mountains route that they neutered those stages so he wouldn't get a huge advantage and make the last 2 weeks of the Tour a foregone conclusion. Lucky for a mediocre climber like Wiggins, who can't respond to Contador accelerations.

3. BMC. Och proves yet again that he can't put together a team to support Evans (plus the fact that he's such a ****$$er that his teammates pretend not to hear his calls for a spare wheel). He gets isolated on the first cat 4 climb of the Tour. Pathetic team management.

3. Once upon a time, 5.9 watts/kg on a final climb was taken as a positive sign of a cleaner peloton. Now we have 5.6. So, the conspiracy theory is that Sky hires a bunch of cat 4 amateurs who can't produce more than 4.5 watts/kg clean.

4. Nibali - whose team is almost as bad as BMC in terms of support - actually depends on Sagan at one point to pace him on a climbing attack. I guess the rest of the team is protesting the fact that Basso's sister isn't allowed on the team bus anymore and have decided to take July off.

5. Olympics. Either skip this Tour or ride it as prep for the Olympics. Now the mass exodus begins.

6. How many rest days before the rest day did the peloton take? Sky is left to set tempo - not to bring back the break - but to ensure they make the time cut. Commentators struggle to find the corresponding term for autobus on a flat stage. Eurosport commentators admitted to hospital after going insane attempting to fill 4 hours or non-stop non-action with debates over whether Skodas are good cars now.

That's the most sense I've heard re this Tour since it began. Especially point 3 - BMC have been all over the place. Sky must be laughing themselves to sleep every night at how poor their competition is.

 

[The Cobra]

That's the most sense I've heard re this Tour since it began. Especially point 3 - BMC have been all over the place. Sky must be laughing themselves to sleep every night at how poor their competition is.

Ssshhhhh, there's no place for sense on the internet. Especially not in the clinic.

 

[Franklin]

Riders have always warmed up on their trainers before races, you know that, you little kidder.

We are talking about warming DOWN, after each ROAD stage.
You know, when riders are fecked, and just want to sit down in the bus.

Allegedly Garmin and Radioshack have been doing it for years now, so you should know this.

Now this cooling down is hardly new in sport, but the argument is that it's new in cycling. Yet here we have Kevin Livingston on the subject:

http://www.livestrong.com/video/3800-cool-down-after-cycling/

Now if kevin knows about it, is it to farfetched to think other pro's and trainers know about this huge secret?

And to throw even a bigger spanner in the works.. there is little to none scientific evidence for cooling down.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/health/nutrition/15best.html?_r=1

 

[LastDamnation]

Where has all this "Wiggins adores Lance" bs come from? I can't remember anything which shows this.
Not to mention the fact that it's very difficult to "slander" lance because he seem to have a habit of going after people legally etc.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Now this cooling down is hardly new in sport, but the argument is that it's new in cycling. Yet here we have Kevin Livingston on the subject:

http://www.livestrong.com/video/3800-cool-down-after-cycling/

Now if kevin knows about it, is it to farfetched to think other pro's and trainers know about this huge secret?

And to throw even a bigger spanner in the works.. there is little to none scientific evidence for cooling down.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/health/nutrition/15best.html?_r=1

So now I am meant to believe information on Livestrong?

 

[badboygolf16v]

1) This is all you've really got and I'd love for someone to really pin down Brailsford and get a straight answer out of him on this one.

Good luck.

 

[Dr.Sahl]

I can't wait to see Froome next season. he said that he still got the parasite, since GL failed to kill it all, so he is still only pulling 80 % of what he can do..

As for the Post warmdown, I've seen that in several races many years ago, its hardly anything new, I can't say if Sky made some more tweaks to it however, I don't have facts about that..

I look forward to see if The Hog are right about tomorrow's stage, if he is there will be even more entertaining discussion in this thread..

Personaly, I think Wiggins will break and Froome just kill off the others.

 

[Franklin]

1) This is all you've really got and I'd love for someone to really pin down Brailsford and get a straight answer out of him on this one. But how does this prove that he is doping Sky now? It's not totally impossible that people can change. Half of Garmin is full of ex dopers but regarded as clean now.

Why was this hidden from their site? Why is Leinders not listed?

Is it beyond suspicion (as that is exactly what we are talking about)? Or would you disagree with Wiggins himself that this is bad form indeed

2) Rogers said his threshold had increased. But compared to when, the last few years probably. If he was producing more than in his Freiburg years he sure wouldnt be a domestique for Wiggins.

He climbs better than before, so instead of second guessing why not take his statement at face value? Let's repeat that... to explain this one you need to reinterpret his pretty clear statement.

3) Wiggins has denounced plenty of dopers. What do you expect him say regarding Lance?? Anyone who speaks out has a world of **** coming there way from the Armstrong fanboys. Maybe he doesnt want to deal with that. Is it hypocritical, yeah. Doesn't mean he's doping either. On the whole Wiggins has spoken out against doping a hell of a lot more than most.

Actually, he accused riders who have a lot less against them than himself (Sastre).

Again, there are no real facts that prove Sky are doping. Positive tests, nope. Eye witnesses, nope. Police raids, nope. You guys are clutching at straws.

What a nice straw man you put up. Once again... I see reason to suspect Sky. Brad would agree once... and Kerrison actually would agree to it seems (even though he had some nice falsehoods in his interview).

Let me turn this around... all you have is a bleief he is innocent. you can not explain the idiosyncracies, yet you attack me for being suspicious.

You are a believer, I take facts. Sucks doesn't it?

 

[andy1234]

Now this cooling down is hardly new in sport, but the argument is that it's new in cycling. Yet here we have Kevin Livingston on the subject:

http://www.livestrong.com/video/3800-cool-down-after-cycling/

Now if kevin knows about it, is it to farfetched to think other pro's and trainers know about this huge secret?

And to throw even a bigger spanner in the works.. there is little to none scientific evidence for cooling down.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/health/nutrition/15best.html?_r=1

Nobody is arguing that warming down is new to cycling.

Keep up.

 

[Caruut]

1) This is all you've really got and I'd love for someone to really pin down Brailsford and get a straight answer out of him on this one. But how does this prove that he is doping Sky now? It's not totally impossible that people can change. Half of Garmin is full of ex dopers but regarded as clean now.

2) Rogers said his threshold had increased. But compared to when, the last few years probably. If he was producing more than in his Freiburg years he sure wouldnt be a domestique for Wiggins.

3) Wiggins has denounced plenty of dopers. What do you expect him say regarding Lance?? Anyone who speaks out has a world of **** coming there way from the Armstrong fanboys. Maybe he doesnt want to deal with that. Is it hypocritical, yeah. Doesn't mean he's doping either. On the whole Wiggins has spoken out against doping a hell of a lot more than most.

Again, there are no real facts that prove Sky are doping. Positive tests, nope. Eye witnesses, nope. Police raids, nope. You guys are clutching at straws.

1. It proves nothing. It is more circumstantial evidence. You can choose to pretend that Geert Leinders is a "good-guy" now, but if he is, why haven't Sky made a big PR song and dance about it as is their way with these things?

2. Rogers called them his best ever numbers. Yeah, that's right, best ever. It's been discussed quite a lot in this threat, but I suppose you've been too busy painting caricatures to actually bother reading the thread itself.

3. Wiggins has denounced plenty. He went a lot quieter in 2009, though, and has only really gotten back on his soapbox since the suspicion has started to fall on him. With regards to Lance, I do not expect active riders to call out Lance. That has proven to be very expensive, both in terms of legal fees and in terms of fanboys coming after you.

Avoiding accusing him of doping does not mean you have to proclaim your support, he could just stay silent, say "This isn't my business", "It's for the authorities, not me, to decide" or "I don't think it would be right to comment on an open case".

4. No, there are no real facts. Nobody is saying there is conclusive proof. By the same token, there is no real evidence that they are clean. This is not a court of law - this is personal opinion. We do not need to start with a presumption of innocence, and as such, when there is no concrete evidence either way, we base our opinions on the circumstantial evidence.

 

[Franklin]

4. No, there are no real facts.

Absolutely false Caruut, don't fall for the semantic traps. These things are most definitely facts. What they are not is solid evidence.

 

[Dr.Sahl]

1) This is all you've really got and I'd love for someone to really pin down Brailsford and get a straight answer out of him on this one. But how does this prove that he is doping Sky now? It's not totally impossible that people can change. Half of Garmin is full of ex dopers but regarded as clean now.

The thing is, we have seen so many other riders suddenly get a huge boost in ability after they had GL on their team, just look at Rasmussen. you have to remember even Wiggins flamed both of them back then and spoke out about GL.

2) Rogers said his threshold had increased. But compared to when, the last few years probably. If he was producing more than in his Freiburg years he sure wouldnt be a domestique for Wiggins.
Rogers is good, no doubt, but he either making the worlds most lucky peak with the rest of the team or else its abit overdo im0.

3) Wiggins has denounced plenty of dopers. What do you expect him say regarding Lance?? Anyone who speaks out has a world of **** coming there way from the Armstrong fanboys. Maybe he doesnt want to deal with that. Is it hypocritical, yeah. Doesn't mean he's doping either. On the whole Wiggins has spoken out against doping a hell of a lot more than most.

Wiggins is not just being neutral or giving small hints about it like others, he got his nose brown from all the talk about LA, they actually have much more in common than most thing, for me it looks like Pro Cycling is turning into Pro Wrestling...he also goes out to flame riders that not as suspect as the ones he praise. some people just believe..

Again, there are no real facts that prove Sky are doping. Positive tests, nope. Eye witnesses, nope. Police raids, nope. You guys are clutching at straws.
I can name you many riders that never tested posetive and still doped, take Riis as an example, he could have just shut up and live with the lie, but believe it or not, some riders even old dopers want to change all the unhealhty doping (yes people get cancer etc from it!!)

Its not often that dopers get pinned down after witnesses, police raids etc and its even ok to persume that some teams/riders get a free pass sometimes when it comes to doping test!! cycling is a big "show" and money talks

Response in Magenta

 

[Franklin]

Nobody is arguing that warming down is new to cycling.

Keep up.

Then what exactly are you claiming?

Keep up indeed.

 

[Dr.Sahl]

So now I am meant to believe information on Livestrong?

Yes if not you are a sinner ^^ haha

 

[hrotha]

Can you guys drop the "conspiracy theory" BS? Believing a pro cycling team or rider might be doping is hardly tinfoil material.

 

[blackcat]

4. I guess the rest of the team is protesting the fact that Basso's sister isn't allowed on the team bus anymore and have decided to take July off.

those French silicon implants were recalled. She is in-patient Cedars Sinai

 

[the big ring]

I think the cooling down process of riding your bike is primarily used to help clear lactic acid from the muscles.

Something that is effectively done with massage - which we know the Tour riders receive after every stage.