Team mates on Tour podium

[oldcrank]

In 1984, 1985 and 1986 Greg Lemond was on the TdF
podium with a team-mate. He is generally believed to
be a non-doper. If a team in 2013 had the first two
places on the podium as well as fourth overall, the
polka-dot jersey, the white jersey, some stage wins
and the team title, like La Vie Claire with Lemond,
Hinault and Hampsten in 1986 would the whole team
be accused of doping or all but the winner or just a
few of the riders or none at all? Would we believe
that a team leader was unaware of, or not complicit
in, team-mates that were doping/blood-doping?

I am in no way trying to suggest that Greg Lemond
doped/blood-doped or that he was aware of, or
complicit in, the doping of team-mates, nor am I
suggesting Team Sky were illegally prepared for their
successes in 2012.

 

[taiwan]

That was pre-EPO though.

 

[oldcrank]

1984/85/86 was certainly not before the blood-doping era,
and as all readers of this forum know blood-doping has
continued to be used since that time to the present day.

I repeat, I am not accusing Greg Lemond/La Vie Claire of
doping/blood-doping, I'm just wondering why modern teams
that have had only a fraction of their success are accused.

 

[Joachim]

Because the accusers haven't done their homework.

It's a bit like Wiggins 2 weeks in yellow, this year, that is cited as evidence that Sky's <insert shrill hyperbolic adjective of your choice> performance has to be drug fuelled, after all it's just like USPS.

Except that it isn't. Lance never managed it. It hasn't happenned since Hinault in 1981, and as we all know *he was off his tits on EPO

*may contain traces of sarcasm

 

[D-Queued]

Is this a serious question, or another attempt to create an argument that LeMond doped?

La Vie Claire is a particularly unusual team in TdF history with multiple serial winners along with Domestiques such as Hampsten and Bauer.

Yes, there may have been blood doping pre-EPO. Without EPO, however, blood doping has more limited application and utility. Without EPO and sophisticated storage and delivery capabilities, even more limited. We also have post-EPO HGH and IGF-1 to consider and how incredibly sophisticated the PED games have become.

Any team that had multiple Tour winners, especially multiple serial winners, would have more than one rider placing high on the podium. Interesting to note, though, that Banesto never achieved two top placings with Indurain and Delgado on the same time.

Typically, the great rivalries were with GC riders on different teams. Only very occasionally - Hinault & LeMond - were they on the same team. In that case, it is hard to imagine much two-way cooperation between the two on pretty much anything.

The Badger isn't the same personality as Lance, but AC's internal team fight against Lance has some similarity. Can you imagine Lance sharing doping info with AC? Lance has a history of not just requiring teammates to dope, but also of holding out on them (e.g. CVV).

Multiple Top 5 Podium Spots Post EPO:

Sky (Wiggins, Froome)
Disco (AC, Levi - DSQ, Popovych)
CSC (Sastre, F. Schleck - 6th)
Astana (AC, Armstrong - DSQ, Kloden)
Saxo Bank (Schleck & Schleck)

Pre-EPO

La Vie Claire (Hinault, LeMond, Hampsten, Bauer)

Others?

Dave.

 

[taiwan]

Exactly, in recent times it's been Riis and Bruyneel putting two on the Tour podium.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Is this a serious question, or another attempt to create an argument that LeMond doped?

La Vie Claire is a particularly unusual team in TdF history with multiple serial winners along with Domestiques such as Hampsten and Bauer.

Yes, there may have been blood doping pre-EPO. Without EPO, however, blood doping has more limited application and utility. Without EPO and sophisticated storage and delivery capabilities, even more limited. We also have post-EPO HGH and IGF-1 to consider and how incredibly sophisticated the PED games have become.

Any team that had multiple Tour winners, especially multiple serial winners, would have more than one rider placing high on the podium. Interesting to note, though, that Banesto never achieved two top placings with Indurain and Delgado on the same time.

Typically, the great rivalries were with GC riders on different teams. Only very occasionally - Hinault & LeMond - were they on the same team. In that case, it is hard to imagine much two-way cooperation between the two on pretty much anything.

The Badger isn't the same personality as Lance, but AC's internal team fight against Lance has some similarity. Can you imagine Lance sharing doping info with AC? Lance has a history of not just requiring teammates to dope, but also of holding out on them (e.g. CVV).

Multiple Top 5 Podium Spots Post EPO:

Sky (Wiggins, Froome)
Disco (AC, Levi - DSQ, Popovych)
CSC (Sastre, F. Schleck - 6th)
Astana (AC, Armstrong - DSQ, Kloden)
Saxo Bank (Schleck & Schleck)

Pre-EPO

La Vie Claire (Hinault, LeMond, Hampsten, Bauer)

Others?

Dave.

'84 Renault (Fignon, Lemond - 3rd)

 

[LaFlorecita]

Multiple Top 5 Podium Spots Post EPO:

Sky (Wiggins, Froome)
Disco (AC, Levi - DSQ, Popovych)
CSC (Sastre, F. Schleck - 6th)
Astana (AC, Armstrong - DSQ, Kloden)
Saxo Bank (Schleck & Schleck)

Levi got DQ'ed?

btw Frandy was with leopard

 

[Bordercollie1]

Potentially an interesting thread.

We have missed the best examples though: Jan and Bjarne in '96 and '97 were 1st, 2nd and 1st and 7th (after Riis lost the plot) In both Tours Zabel took the points.
In '95 Once took 2nd, 4th and 6th. Ja Ja (4th) took the points and a Bastile day stage too so had only half an eye on the GC.

I would go as far as to say that even an individual stage win for a rider on a GC team should raise questions. It is SO hard to win a tour stage, and SO hard to keep a GC leader out of trouble for 3 weeks.
To afford the luxury of a sprinter, or even to have a rider in the break while you are going for GC looks like an extravagance.

Banesto and USP never rode with a sprinter and as I remember they did not chase stage wins.

 

[Zweistein]

In 1984, 1985 and 1986 Greg Lemond was on the TdF
podium with a team-mate. He is generally believed to
be a non-doper. If a team in 2013 had the first two
places on the podium as well as fourth overall, the
polka-dot jersey, the white jersey, some stage wins
and the team title, like La Vie Claire with Lemond,
Hinault and Hampsten in 1986 would the whole team
be accused of doping or all but the winner or just a
few of the riders or none at all? Would we believe
that a team leader was unaware of, or not complicit
in, team-mates that were doping/blood-doping?

I am in no way trying to suggest that Greg Lemond
doped/blood-doped or that he was aware of, or
complicit in, the doping of team-mates, nor am I
suggesting Team Sky were illegally prepared for their
successes in 2012.

If you are trying to figure out who on that team doped, the coach Guimard is a straight shooter and has said that Lemond and Hampsten were clean. As far as I know, he has never called Hinault or Fignon clean. I tend to believe him based on his stance against doping throughout his career.

Here is him commenting on Armstrong's ban and the UCI:
http://bicycling.com/blogs/thisjust...o-armstrongs-lifetime-ban-handed-down-by-uci/

 

[Master50]

I like a simpler answer. La Vie Claire was the first Super team built entirely to win one race. It was the dawn of the Tour as a world event and absolutely created the public media dominance of the Tour as the premier cycling event and for many the only annual cycling race they pay any attention to.

 

[will10]

No riders on the final podium.

No riders on the final podium.

 

[the delgados]

If you are trying to figure out who on that team doped, the coach Guimard is a straight shooter and has said that Lemond and Hampsten were clean. As far as I know, he has never called Hinault or Fignon clean. I tend to believe him based on his stance against doping throughout his career.

Here is him commenting on Armstrong's ban and the UCI:
http://bicycling.com/blogs/thisjust...o-armstrongs-lifetime-ban-handed-down-by-uci/

Not to pick nits, but given Guimard's anti-doping stance, what prevented him from calling out Hinault and Fignon?
Wouldn't a straight shooter call a spade a spade?

 

[DirtyWorks]

I like a simpler answer. La Vie Claire was the first Super team built entirely to win one race. It was the dawn of the Tour as a world event and absolutely created the public media dominance of the Tour as the premier cycling event and for many the only annual cycling race they pay any attention to.

I don't think so. The TdF has been "the" Tour for quite a long while. I would agree La Vie Claire was the beginning of the specializing. But, even then the stars raced on the front all season long.

EPO really solidified the occasional racing with all kinds of pseudo-scientific excuses given for hero-to-zero performances that have become common knowledge training misinformation.

 

[D-Queued]

Because the accusers haven't done their homework.

It's a bit like Wiggins 2 weeks in yellow, this year, that is cited as evidence that Sky's <insert shrill hyperbolic adjective of your choice> performance has to be drug fuelled, after all it's just like USPS.

Except that it isn't. Lance never managed it. It hasn't happenned since Hinault in 1981, and as we all know *he was off his tits on EPO

*may contain traces of sarcasm

That was part of the strategy... as opposed to his EPO-fueled capability.

Yes, Bradley was in yellow for fourteen days straight.

Perhaps he was a day short, but how do you compare that domination to Indurain's:

1991 - 10 days straight, 10 in yellow
1992 - 9 days straight, 10 in yellow
1993 - 12 days straight, 14 in yellow
1994 - 13 days straight, 13 in yellow
1995 - 13 days straight, 13 in yellow

The number of days in yellow for Indurain was influenced at least as much by how the stages were designed (i.e. the first long time trial). Once Indurain won the first time trial, he had won the Tour. If they had moved the TT up one stage or two, he would have easily had multiple 14 days in yellow.

The only time that rule was not the case for Indurain was in 1991 against LeMond and 1992 against Lino. In those cases, he did win the first TT but did not take over the yellow immediately.

Dave.

 

[BroDeal]

Wiggins is not fit to wash Hinault's chamois and Froome is no Greg LeMond. Froome does not even have the talent of a Jean-Francois Bernard.

 

[D-Queued]

Levi got DQ'ed?

btw Frandy was with leopard

I was listing 2009's results:

1. Contador - Astana
2. A Schleck - Saxo Bank
3. DSQ
4 --> 3. Wiggins - Garmin
5 --> 4. F. Schleck - Saxo Bank
6 --> 5. Kloden - Astana

Potentially an interesting thread.

We have missed the best examples though: Jan and Bjarne in '96 and '97 were 1st, 2nd and 1st and 7th (after Riis lost the plot) In both Tours Zabel took the points.
In '95 Once took 2nd, 4th and 6th. Ja Ja (4th) took the points and a Bastile day stage too so had only half an eye on the GC.

I would go as far as to say that even an individual stage win for a rider on a GC team should raise questions. It is SO hard to win a tour stage, and SO hard to keep a GC leader out of trouble for 3 weeks.
To afford the luxury of a sprinter, or even to have a rider in the break while you are going for GC looks like an extravagance.

Banesto and USP never rode with a sprinter and as I remember they did not chase stage wins.

1. Yes, sorry, I hadn't gone that far back yet to include ex-donkey Riis and Ullrich

2. He wasn't chasing stage wins, but Indurain just couldn't help himself on TT's though he gave plenty of mountain gifts. For the record, Indurain actually can sprint.

Lance didn't have the personality to accommodate others. He sometimes claimed he gave gifts when he didn't - like almost helping Floyd win a stage and then outsprinting Kloden instead. The only gift I can recall was the single stage to Basso in honor of his mother's or grandmother's birthday.

Dave.

 

[del1962]

Wiggins is not fit to wash Hinault's chamois and Froome is no Greg LeMond. Froome does not even have the talent of a Jean-Francois Bernard.

What you have just posted makes you sound like a bit of a p***k

Anyway I am led to understand that Hinault and Wiggin's get on well

 

[Joachim]

Well they've certainly been seeing a lot of each other this year

 

[BroDeal]

What you have just posted makes you sound like a bit of a p***k

Anyway I am led to understand that Hinault and Wiggin's get on well

Does anyone remember Hinault spending the first half of his career fending off the broom wagon on climbing stages?

 

[the delgados]

Does anyone remember Hinault spending the first half of his career fending off the broom wagon on climbing stages?

No, but Hinault didn't ride during the EPO era.

 

[taiwan]

And Wiggins does

 

[D-Queued]

And Wiggins does

And, just look at what he had to overcome!

Nobody has had to improve as much as he has to compete against the EPO dopers.

Dave.

 

[Hugh Januss]

What you have just posted makes you sound like a bit of a p***k

Anyway I am led to understand that Hinault and Wiggin's get on well

Merckx "got on well" with Armstrong.
So does that post make you sound like a "bit of a ***"? That may be unavoidable, as a bit may be all you have to bring.

 

[The Hitch]

Does anyone remember Hinault spending the first half of his career fending off the broom wagon on climbing stages?

Or saying age 27 that his dream would be to one day scrape a tour de France tt by a few seconds.