Team mates on Tour podium

[del1962]

Does anyone remember Hinault spending the first half of his career fending off the broom wagon on climbing stages?

Actually he was concentrating on winning Olympic Gold at that time, of course to the scum inhabit the clinic this is dismissed as no achievment.

 

[Mellow Velo]

2004 Giro
Cunego and Simoni 1st and 3rd.
Simoni was in "virtual" 2nd on the final mountain stage.

USPS: 1st 6th and 9th in 2002

 

[Joachim]

And, just look at what he had to overcome!

Nobody has had to improve as much as he has to compete against the EPO dopers.

Dave.

Unless he is no longer competing against dopers, or at least talented dopers. That would account for his improvement and the decline of some of the others, Basso being a prime example.

 

[Joachim]

Or saying age 27 that his dream would be to one day scrape a tour de France tt by a few seconds.

Wiggins is no Hinault. He's not pretending to be either, so what's your point?

 

[Joachim]

That was part of the strategy... as opposed to his EPO-fueled capability..

You are missing the point. People have cited Wiggins 2 weeks in yellow as an extraordinary occurrence and indicative of doping.

It isn't. There is precedent of it happenning pre-blood manipulation. Who did it and whether it was part of a strategy is neither here nor there.

 

[taiwan]

Unless he is no longer competing against dopers, or at least talented dopers. That would account for his improvement and the decline of some of the others, Basso being a prime example.

Basso is pretty much the only example. Did you see the Vuelta? It's literally beyond naive to accept the old "new clean cycling" hype.

Anyway, what was the podium in 2009 again?

 

[Joachim]

Anyway, what was the podium in 2009 again?

I think it is interesting to consider what it was.

A Known doper gets eliminated, Wiggins goes up.
Who is still above him? A known doper, and ...er...Schleck.

Doesn't help your argument.

 

[taiwan]

You're wrong there, but look at it another way. Who did Wiggins edge out in that Tour?

 

[Joachim]

You're wrong there,

About what? The gc?

but look at it another way. Who did Wiggins edge out in that Tour?

Kloden. Wasn't quite up to his standard in the good old days.

Now compare the 09 podium with the 2012 podium. Who wasn't there this year to contend??

Suddenly starts to look as if 2012 wasn't so unusual, doesn't it.

 

[taiwan]

You're wrong that pointing to the 2009 GC doesn't help my argument. Actually you might also be wrong about the GC. Kloeden was 5th in Paris?

Leaving aside that Kloeden (who you aknowledge is not a clean rider) was performing perfectly well in 2011, and could well have been back on the Tour podium wothout the crashes.

 

[Benotti69]

<snip>

Suddenly starts to look as if 2012 wasn't so unusual, doesn't it.

Contador not there, Bruyneel in hiding so Schelcks went without their logistical support, which left Wiggins to walk away with the Tour. The guy who finished up there with those dopers wins, nothing unusual for a TDF nope, doping same as it always was.

 

[Joachim]

You're wrong that pointing to the 2009 GC doesn't help my argument.

Can you explain why?

Actually you might also be wrong about the GC. Kloeden was 5th in Paris?

Sorry, Kloden was fifth. I forgot to include Frank. Multi-tasking here!!

Leaving aside that Kloeden (who you aknowledge is not a clean rider) was performing perfectly well in 2011, and could well have been back on the Tour podium wothout the crashes.

That last part is possible, but to be clear I'm acknowledging the likelihood that Kloden doped earlier in his career. 2009 onwards? Who knows

 

[Alphabet]

Unless he is no longer competing against dopers, or at least talented dopers. That would account for his improvement and the decline of some of the others, Basso being a prime example.

But Basso's decline can be explained by age, though. And post-ban, his results have still been quite good, so his decline hasn't really been that sharp. 4th, 1st and 5th in the Giro, 31st (after a Giro), 7th and 25th (after a Giro) in the Tour, and 4th in the Vuelta. 5 top 10s out of 7 GT attempts including a win is an impressive performance for someone who returned to the sport at 32.

 

[taiwan]

...I'm acknowledging the likelihood that Kloden doped earlier in his career. 2009 onwards? Who knows

How about Frank?

Can you explain why?

Basically you're suggesting that a clean Wiggins is now able to succeed at the Tour because the race is clean now. I'm pointing to an edition where Wiggins indisputably succeeded with his 4th/3rd, yet everyone else apart from Andy Schleck (AHAHAHAHAHAH) was still dirty. 3 of them have been flagged up since then. How was Wiggins able to ride at that level before the advent of clean cycling

 

[Joachim]

Yes, my argument is flawed, but that is because we don't actually know who was doping and who wasn't, regardless of past or future positives and exposés. That same flaw applies to both sides of the argument, and admittedly it is an impasse.

 

[taiwan]

...or Wiggins was juiced.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

In 1984, 1985 and 1986 Greg Lemond was on the TdF
podium with a team-mate. He is generally believed to
be a non-doper. If a team in 2013 had the first two
places on the podium as well as fourth overall, the
polka-dot jersey, the white jersey, some stage wins
and the team title, like La Vie Claire with Lemond,
Hinault and Hampsten in 1986 would the whole team
be accused of doping or all but the winner or just a
few of the riders or none at all? Would we believe
that a team leader was unaware of, or not complicit
in, team-mates that were doping/blood-doping?

I like this thread. Specially the La Vie Claire part in it. If one has any historical knowledge of cycling one knows this was The Dream Team of Cycling, ever. Ruttimann, Bernard, Bauer, Hampsten, Hinault, LeMond. Guess what? Never seen before, and, I guess we will never see such a team again. Let us also not forget Paul Kochli, a great man.

And, guess what? No rider ever turned positive, to my knowledge. More important, never showed idiotic performances out of the blue. Except for idiot Kim Andersen, to my knowlegde. But given his history [http://www.dopeology.org/people/Kim_Andersen/] we might say he was a real nutter, but still a small rider. No shark.

In my opinion you can't compare that 1-2 [ergo the two of three best riders of the eighties on a podium, duh...] to this day of age. But, when Schleck/Contador/name one team up it could also happen, off course. And yes, there will be allways a smere of doping rumours nowadays, that's also a lesson learned by Joe Public.

 

[Benotti69]

Yes, my argument is flawed, but that is because we don't actually know who was doping and who wasn't, regardless of past or future positives and exposés. That same flaw applies to both sides of the argument, and admittedly it is an impasse.

Your argument regurlarly gets trotted out but the sport has shown itself to be a cesspit of doping.

Those who enabled doping pre EPO and all the way through EPO era to now are still involved.

There is plenty of 1st hand recorded evidence from a Rough Ride through Willy Voet's book all the way up to The Secret Race and others.

 

[oldcrank]

I like this thread. Specially the La Vie Claire part in it. If one has any historical knowledge of cycling one knows this was The Dream Team of Cycling, ever. Ruttimann, Bernard, Bauer, Hampsten, Hinault, LeMond. Guess what? Never seen before, and, I guess we will never see such a team again. Let us also not forget Paul Kochli, a great man.

I am impressed that neither Lemond, nor Hinault, nor Hampsten, nor Bauer
have said anything untoward about Brad Wiggin's 2012 TdF win.

 

[BroDeal]

I am impressed that neither Lemond, nor Hinault, nor Hampsten, nor Bauer
have said anything untoward about Brad Wiggin's 2012 TdF win.

Why? When did Hinault, Hampsten, or Bauer ever say anything untoward about anyone's TdF win?

And LeMond has obiously been a lot more circumspect since he got into a tiff with Armstrong.

 

[oldcrank]

Bauer achieved his first international success on the track
(including a 4th in the Points Race @ 1981 World's) and
like Lemond (if the figurehead of the Change Cycling Now
group won't speak out against doped riders who will?)
understands the benefit of training/racing on a fixed gear.
Sir Brad took fixed gear training to a new level for several
years, so it is no surprise that he has possibly the most
efficient pedaling technique of his generation and Bauer
and Lemond and Hinault are knowledgeable enough to
recognise the significance of that, while many casual
observers of the sport (that pose as experts) do not.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

1984/85/86 was certainly not before the blood-doping era,
and as all readers of this forum know blood-doping has
continued to be used since that time to the present day.

I repeat, I am not accusing Greg Lemond/La Vie Claire of
doping/blood-doping, I'm just wondering why modern teams
that have had only a fraction of their success are accused.

This is a silly argument.

You have Hinault, who was an established champion, and Greg LeMond, who was a tremendous talent himself.

Versus whom?

A former track star who had shown no real GT abilities and a domestique who suddenly sprang out of nowhere and saw little interest from other teams even after this 2nd in the Vuelta (to the laughable Cobo).

Seriously. How can people make this ridiculous comparison?

 

[Old School]

This is a silly argument.

You have Hinault, who was an established champion, and Greg LeMond, who was a tremendous talent himself.

Versus whom?

A former track star who had shown no real GT abilities and a domestique who suddenly sprang out of nowhere and saw little interest from other teams even after this 2nd in the Vuelta (to the laughable Cobo).

Seriously. How can people make this ridiculous comparison?

Thank you Moose! These guys can't see.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Bauer achieved his first international success on the track
(including a 4th in the Points Race @ 1981 World's) and
like Lemond (if the figurehead of the Change Cycling Now
group won't speak out against doped riders who will?)
understands the benefit of training/racing on a fixed gear.
Sir Brad took fixed gear training to a new level for several
years, so it is no surprise that he has possibly the most
efficient pedaling technique of his generation and Bauer
and Lemond and Hinault are knowledgeable enough to
recognise the significance of that, while many casual
observers of the sport (that pose as experts) do not.

Are you really this naive or are you just messing around?

Why would Hinault/LeMond/Bauer et all stick their necks out without a smoking gun? That's the work for frontrunners like Kimmage, Walsh, the French former Festina team doc [what's his name] etc etc.

LeMond stuck his neck out way back when he had come to knowledge wonderboy was working with Ferrari; the smoking gun.

Next try please.

Versus whom?

A former track star who had shown no GT abilities and a domestique who suddenly sprang out of nowhere and saw little interest from other teams even after this 2nd in the Vuelta (to the laughable Cobo).

Seriously. How can people make this ridiculous comparison?

They are out there as we see.

 

[Benotti69]

Are you really this naive or are you just messing around?

Why would Hinault/LeMond/Bauer et all stick their necks out without a smoking gun? That's the work for frontrunners like Kimmage, Walsh, the French former Festina team doc [what's his name] etc etc.

LeMond stuck his neck out way back when he had come to knowledge wonderboy was working with Ferrari; the smoking gun.

Next try please.
They are out there as we see.

Soigneur was Wily Voet. He was stopped at the border and the boot was full of dope.