Team Time Trials

[Libertine Seguros]

But disregarding the result of the ttt, the only rider who would enter the top 10 would be Mikel Astarloza who tested positive anyway. Considering the composition of Astana, Saxo Bank, Garmin and Liquigas in 2009 it's hardly surprising that they would fill the top 4 of the ttt and the top 10 of the GC.

But with the TTT so early, it's hard to then just remove it like that, because guys like Evans, Sastre and co wouldn't have been forced to attempt doomed breaks that caused them to melt down completely, because a guy like Evans would typically be up there in the mix after the ITTs. Guys like the Schlecks would have time to make up, thus making the mountain stages interesting. The TTT reversed this, leaving the guys who needed to make the time up to be the ones who were least well-suited to it.

 

[cineteq]

But with the TTT so early, it's hard to then just remove it like that, because guys like Evans, Sastre and co wouldn't have been forced to attempt doomed breaks that caused them to melt down completely, because a guy like Evans would typically be up there in the mix after the ITTs. Guys like the Schlecks would have time to make up, thus making the mountain stages interesting. The TTT reversed this, leaving the guys who needed to make the time up to be the ones who were least well-suited to it.

One might think a sensitive poster like you would like to see the TTT in a GT, but I was wrong. In the past, your arguments have been weak, and they haven't improved. You don't seem to see the big picture here. Think TEAM.

 

[woodenswan]

The devil in me however would love to see a MTTT. Esp up the Zoncolan.

now i love me some prologues but that would be awesome
just imagine that..

 

[ferryman]

Nothing wrong with a TTT of 25K. Teams have 8 months for goodness sake to get it together.

 

[abbaskip]

and its bad? confuse the overall? i think is good
force the climbers to attack, not just in the last 3-4 km in the mountains

with TTT, plus one mountain finish or less ITT km's
can have long TTT, just keep the route balanced, for the racers

edit: 2013 TDF route, is a good example, because the TTT, the ITT is not so long as usual, less than 40km!!
2013 TDF route is balanced, than 2012 was

No an ITT forces the climbers to attack. A TTT can favour a climber as much as an ITT. It doesn't depend at all on the individual's strength, it depends on 8 other guys in his team.

 

[abbaskip]

A TTT has a place in GTs and it should be used more often. Its distance should be proportional to the GT parcours, so it's not to be too decisive for the overall.

It allows the whole team to contribute to their GC leader.

It allows for opportunities for some, however it could doom others. Same thing as an ITT or a MTF would do. Another variable of many variables that would enrich GTs.

The whole team already contributes. Did you see Team Sky in the mountains last year? USPS/Discovery for however many years before? CSC when Sastre beat Evans?

 

[abbaskip]

Maybe if we didn't seem to get one in almost every GT it wouldn't seem so played out, but frankly they belong on the track and should never have left it.

As to them affecting the GC... Michele Scarponi lost more time in the 32km TTT in the 2010 Giro than he lost in the other 3453km combined. By about four times. In a 32km ITT, there is no way, no way on earth Ivan Basso takes more than 2 minutes out of Scarponi.

TTTs are, however, here to stay. If the 2009 Tour didn't kill the TTT off for good, nothing can, sadly. Here's the top 4 teams in the TTT that year:
Astana
Saxo Bank
Garmin
Liquigas

Here are the teams for the top 10 on GC that year:
Astana
Saxo Bank
Astana
Garmin
Saxo Bank
Astana
Liquigas
Garmin
Liquigas
Française des Jeux

By the time they got to the Alps, riders who didn't have super-strong TTT teams were already eliminated from contention, allowing the strong TTT teams to tighten their vice-like grip on the race, which they had because they, surprise surprise, were the strongest teams. Riders on the strongest teams are already advantaged by, you know, having the strongest team.

The arguments for more or less boil down to two things.
1) they look cool. I don't disagree, but aesthetics is a poor return on the effect they have on the GC;
2) they force teams to select more balanced teams, meaning fewer mountain domestiques and more km raced alone by the leaders.

Point 2 actually has some merit, but I don't see why they can't just include tougher rouleur stages, with some cobbles and the like, instead. After all, anything else a TTT has to offer can be replicated, only without most of the flaws, with an ITT.

THIS

But disregarding the result of the ttt, the only rider who would enter the top 10 would be Mikel Astarloza who tested positive anyway. Considering the composition of Astana, Saxo Bank, Garmin and Liquigas in 2009 it's hardly surprising that they would fill the top 4 of the ttt and the top 10 of the GC.

This is irrelevant, as once riders are out of GC contention they often start chasing stage wins. It's easier to win stages when you've lost big times, so it's not uncommon for them to finish an early stage with the autobus.

 

[abbaskip]

One might think a sensitive poster like you would like to see the TTT in a GT, but I was wrong. In the past, your arguments have been weak, and they haven't improved. You don't seem to see the big picture here. Think TEAM.

Nothing wrong with a TTT of 25K. Teams have 8 months for goodness sake to get it together.

It's not about getting it together and practicing. Teams with bigger time trial engines will still be stronger. Why should Schleck benefit from having big engines in his team? I get that it's partly a "team" sport, but there are individual and team events. The idea is that a team can HELP an individual, but in this case they're not helping, they're GIVING the rider their time. It's completely different thing.

I want to see the strongest rider win the GC of a Grand Tour. The strongest team can win the Teams competition.

If it's such a team sport, as half you guys seem to be banging on, then why isn't the Teams competition at a grand tour a big deal?

 

[cineteq]

The whole team already contributes. Did you see Team Sky in the mountains last year? USPS/Discovery for however many years before? CSC when Sastre beat Evans?

Last year no. This year yes.

 

[Ferminal]

Are we back to calling the individual GC in a stage race a team event?

 

[The Hitch]

No an ITT forces the climbers to attack. A TTT can favour a climber as much as an ITT. It doesn't depend at all on the individual's strength, it depends on 8 other guys in his team.

And on whether or not their wheel punctures too or they crash. 2 domestiques crash on a road stage you're out 2 doms so follow the leaders.

2 doms crash in a ttt, well in the case of.some of warped sick fantasies I've been reading about here -70k, you lose minutes and.minutes and just save yourself for a stage. Hooray what a great impact on the gc

 

[wwabbit]

If it's such a team sport, as half you guys seem to be banging on, then why isn't the Teams competition at a grand tour a big deal?

Probably because the Teams competition at a GT isn't really a Teams competition, but a competition between the 3rd best rider in the teams.

 

[richo36]

A different idea,

Have The TTT as a prologue. You can have the distance at what ever you like, I would like a nice 60km TTT. However the result has no effect on GC. So That way we get to see a TTT but no one who is on a weaker team will get disadvantage.

But to make it competitive so teams actually race:
1.extra cq points will be awarded to the winning team
2.Time difference counts in team classifaction
3. Team who wins gets to wear the yellow jersey on the first day.

Thoughts?

 

[guncha]

A different idea,

Have The TTT as a prologue. You can have the distance at what ever you like, I would like a nice 60km TTT. However the result has no effect on GC. So That way we get to see a TTT but no one who is on a weaker team will get disadvantage.

But to make it competitive so teams actually race:
1.extra cq points will be awarded to the winning team
2.Time difference counts in team classifaction
3. Team who wins gets to wear the yellow jersey on the first day.

Thoughts?

I would not watch it because a stage with no effect on GC makes no sense. Who cares about team classification? Not me...

 

[SafeBet]

You want me mention why cycling is also a team sport?

Is this for real?

I don't see no teams in the GC.
A team event affecting an individual ranking is beyond any rational argument. In any sport.

 

[42x16ss]

Why not have a World Tour classified TTT the day (or even two days) before the start of a GT, similar to the old Eindhoven TTT? Just as a curtain raiser, with WT points going to each of the teams as they place. IMO it could be a good chance for teams to get a psychological edge over competitors before the race even starts and teams with a lot of strong rouleurs but no real GC threat can go all out for WT points.

Thoughts?

 

[Capablanca and me]

And what happens when the best climbers are the ones who gain time - often the case as they have the best teams.

You clearly haven't thought this through

often is the keyword , and yes the bests had the best or top team

teams gets the invitations, not individuals, a rider alone would be "lost"
and every team has 8 months to practice this beautfull discipline for the GT
TTT is a good possibility, IMO we need TTT

 

[the asian]

TTT should have no place in GTs. It should have no bearing to the placement of an Individual rider.
I agree that it's a beautiful discipline to watch though,and hence the new world TTT championship for trade teams is laudable.

Regarding GTs, sadly the race organizers, sponsors and perhaps most team seem to want TTTs. However I'm satisfied that almost all TTTs are around the 20-30KM length and certainly I don't see them returning to TTTs over 50KMs.

The 2009 Tour was the final straw.

 

[Leadbelly]

Have to say I haven't read all the thread, so apologies if I just repeat what others have said, but I quite enjoy a TTT. As long as it's not ridiculously long I don't see the problem.

The key word, I think, is variety. If we're talking just about GTs maybe restrict their use to 1 GT per year and make sure that the courses are as varied as possible - hilly, pan flat, technical or exposed ones on the coast.

One other point to take into account is equipment. I noticed a big improvement in Katusha's TTT (and, going by J-Rod, in TT in general) this year and I was informed by people on this forum that it was down to their amazing new bikes (can't remember the manufacturer). So maybe it would level the playing field a bit if everyone was to ride road bikes in TT disciplines and make it more about the legs and less about the bikes.

 

[Magnus]

But with the TTT so early, it's hard to then just remove it like that, because guys like Evans, Sastre and co wouldn't have been forced to attempt doomed breaks that caused them to melt down completely, because a guy like Evans would typically be up there in the mix after the ITTs. Guys like the Schlecks would have time to make up, thus making the mountain stages interesting. The TTT reversed this, leaving the guys who needed to make the time up to be the ones who were least well-suited to it.

This is irrelevant, as once riders are out of GC contention they often start chasing stage wins. It's easier to win stages when you've lost big times, so it's not uncommon for them to finish an early stage with the autobus.

Sastre and Evans was 30-40 seconds behind Frank Schleck after the TTT.
It's not like they were forced to **** up because of that.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Its a simple.matter of right and wrong.

Ttts are the equivalent of giving some riders a huge headstart over others.

They also often ruin the spectacle- eg when Andy schleck gains time in the ttt meaning he neutralizes the mountains, and idiots like rcs aso and unipublic use it instead of tts which would actually liven the race up.

it's not an organisers fault teams suck in a ttt. the teams should better prepare for it.

 

[sbbefc]

Replace short prologs with it, and not too long

 

[The Hitch]

often is the keyword , and yes the bests had the best or top team

teams gets the invitations, not individuals, a rider alone would be "lost"
and every team has 8 months to practice this beautfull discipline for the GT
TTT is a good possibility, IMO we need TTT

Ah the old -but they can practise.

I have no idea how you people always miss this in these discussions, but the strong teams also.practise the ttt meaning they are just as much stronger than the weak teams as they would be if there was no practise.

 

[The Hitch]

Probably because the Teams competition at a GT isn't really a Teams competition, but a competition between the 3rd best rider in the teams.

And the ttt is a competition between the 5th best riders in the team.

 

[Magnus]

Ah the old -but they can practise.

I have no idea how you people always miss this in these discussions, but the strong teams also.practise the ttt meaning they are just as much stronger than the weak teams as they would be if there was no practise.

And I guess you missed how Credit Agricole won the TTT.