Team Visma LAB

[Libertine Seguros]

Reminds me of Van Baarle for the 2023 TdF, guy was thinner than most gc riders.
The writing was on the wall when her friend, race director of the TdFF and media darling Marion Rousse proclaimed that Hinault's successor would be female, from that moment on I expected her to be thermonuclear.

This was something I hadn't contemplated. I've been mentioning how I think everything is just a little too perfect about PFP's triumph especially off the back of the men's race losing a lot of people's interest, but the fact Marion had said things like that while holding the role that she does... yea, it feels very orchestrated.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

This was something I hadn't contemplated. I've been mentioning how I think everything is just a little too perfect about PFP's triumph especially off the back of the men's race losing a lot of people's interest, but the fact Marion had said things like that while holding the role that she does... yea, it feels very orchestrated.

You think race fixing or doping????

 

[Libertine Seguros]

You think race fixing or doping????

I don't know what I think. I don't outright suspect either, but I also don't reject either as a hypothesis, because I just think everything was too perfect for me not to feel a little uncomfortable, and when you read quotes like that it doesn't make that feeling go away.

 

[Mayomaniac]

I don't know what I think. I don't outright suspect either, but I also don't reject either as a hypothesis, because I just think everything was too perfect for me not to feel a little uncomfortable, and when you read quotes like that it doesn't make that feeling go away.

I mainly think Marion knew that she was going all in with the gear and I wouldn't be surprised if they gave her some extra political protection.

 

[Divergence]

Interesting read, thanks.

I don't perceive women's cycling as a separate entity per se though. It's too reductive and too binary considering the actual reality of what we're seeing and 'who' these top performing cyclists ride for, aka teams and people highly involved with the men's side of the sport and in the 'loop' regarding how to prepare for real like a pro with everything that entails. Also within this context, in the men's peloton the gaps we're seeing recently are an outlier and something we haven't seen in decades, i.e. Pog's dominance is a return to the 90's and that's not a compliment. It's evidence of some serious preparation inequalities on the medical side. This is demonstrably proven by the dominance of his team everywhere all season with different winners.

So regarding the women, I don't see Pauline FP as a product of "women's cycling" or its adjacent organisms but right now solely a product of her own career handing and her recent success is contingent on the choices made for the Olympics and at Visma.

I'm a realist. PFP is married to Dylan van Baarle and rides for Visma. She's got the best expertise and the pillow talk to back it all up. So in this context it's really not a fair fight.

She's also scarily thin right now to a very noticeable degree, i.e. before her 'heroics' over this weekend sucked the oxygen out of the room and turned everyone seemingly into mindless consumers of the sport's offerings, her physical quasi-anorexia did cause a stir last week and was discussed. We'll see if that gets mentioned again once the dust has settled, i.e. her transformation from Roubaix to late July is pretty scary stuff.

She is scarily thin, as in, she is in top form. There is nothing scary from a medical point of view about her thinness. In fact, I have read this kind of comments many times (mainly regarding Remco) how it is a thin line between thinness and performance and one can get too thin and what not... The truth is (and I will add always has been) the thinner the faster. Especially when it comes to climbing. Therefore well done to PFP for her discipline and, due to that, her win.

 

[Red Rick]

I do wonder if there's not a bit of a physiological difference between men and women in not only how low they can go in body fat%, but how consistently they can be so. So for a top female rider it may make more sense to fluctuate the weight a bit more than for the top male riders.

Aside from that, for women there's probably more to gain general because they naturally have a higher body fat%.

 

[awavey]

I mainly think Marion knew that she was going all in with the gear and I wouldn't be surprised if they gave her some extra political protection.

well presenting the stage winners trophy unscripted, I dont think Prudhomme has ever done that has he ? is a little kind of locking you into there had better not be anything nefarious with this, because thats going to be the picture theyll use forever if there is.

 

[awavey]

I do wonder if there's not a bit of a physiological difference between men and women in not only how low they can go in body fat%, but how consistently they can be so. So for a top female rider it may make more sense to fluctuate the weight a bit more than for the top male riders.

Aside from that, for women there's probably more to gain general because they naturally have a higher body fat%.

And it had just seemed like we'd moved on from that dark era of you only win races if youre anorexic

 

[awavey]

Yo, I'll remember this one when Pidders rips up the Tour when he's 33. Or why not MvdP as well.

well never underestimate Froomedog...

 

[awavey]

PFP is likely up to some of the same funny business as others, but come on - she's been tearing up all cycling disciplines her entire career. This isn't out of nowhere.

Stage 1 on a fairly simply finishing climb, went off the front, but ran out of steam ? and got jumped in the end by Vos, because Kim Le Court was about to beat her. Same rider leaves the whole field for dust up an even bigger climb a week later, I guess she was just managing her efforts earlier on right...

the point I think people miss about any doping and this is a general point not specific to any rider, is its not some Captain America style serum that turns an average nobody into a super athlete, you have to possess the core physical attributes to be a world class cyclist to begin with, all the doping does is give you that extra few percent better recovery, or better watts per kilo, better threshold, better that means you can beat the rest because the margins between the very elite riders are very small.

its like its always been said in a clean field, Lance probably could have beaten most of the riders at the time, not always, and not in such dominant fashion, but he had the attributes to be right at the front.

the thing Id look at this year is where was the form this season specifically that suggested PFP up Col de la Madeleine, not on a single one day race, but as part of 9 stage race, could put 3 minutes on the best field of climbers in the womens peloton, because I think if youd suggested that before the race, youd have been laughed at.

 

[fehjammajamma]

Stage 1 on a fairly simply finishing climb, went off the front, but ran out of steam ? and got jumped in the end by Vos, because Kim Le Court was about to beat her. Same rider leaves the whole field for dust up an even bigger climb a week later, I guess she was just managing her efforts earlier on right...

the point I think people miss about any doping and this is a general point not specific to any rider, is its not some Captain America style serum that turns an average nobody into a super athlete, you have to possess the core physical attributes to be a world class cyclist to begin with, all the doping does is give you that extra few percent better recovery, or better watts per kilo, better threshold, better that means you can beat the rest because the margins between the very elite riders are very small.

its like its always been said in a clean field, Lance probably could have beaten most of the riders at the time, not always, and not in such dominant fashion, but he had the attributes to be right at the front.

the thing Id look at this year is where was the form this season specifically that suggested PFP up Col de la Madeleine, not on a single one day race, but as part of 9 stage race, could put 3 minutes on the best field of climbers in the womens peloton, because I think if youd suggested that before the race, youd have been laughed at.

Always been said by the jingoist Lance apologists, sure. Dude was a solid one-day racer at best before the rocket fuel, strongarm tactics, and UCI backroom deals.

As to your paragraph on the benefits of doping: If you're a hyper responder and a super talent with lots of HCT headroom, the blood vector doping of the 90s absolutely would bring the inner racehorse out of your donkey.

It's as if after enough time we're looping back around to the same arguments from the mid-aughts.

Your post is odd - both arguing against the effectiveness of PEDs, conflating modern rocket fuel with the crude methods of 30 years ago, and also managing to bring up Lanceypants. I don't have to wander too far out on the limb to say the gender of the rider is playing a role.

PFP is an opportunist in life and racing. She's definitely on the hottest of sauce.

Editing to add that there's literal evidence of Lance's on a normal program of anabolics and a dash of EPO not even able to finish grand tours until he came back after cancer, hit the wall, and then went all in on cheating. His natural talent ceiling was likely even lower given that he was probably getting some pharm help even as a teen.

But then again - why bring up that crusty old has-been in a thread about modern cycling cheats? To imply that the cheating of the 90s was more moral than whatever is going on in the women's peloton today?

 

[fehjammajamma]

And it had just seemed like we'd moved on from that dark era of you only win races if youre anorexic

Not a lot of readers in this thread, I see.

Great reporting to be had if you wander out of the forum backrooms from time to time:

'Breaking the taboo' – Tour de France Femmes riders highlight issues of low rider weight and disrupted menstrual cycles

Cédrine Kerbaol says the sport is in 'a dangerous moment' for rider health as Magdeleine Vallieres and Emma Norsgaard talk about their own their struggles balancing racing weight and menstrual health

www.cyclingnews.com

 

[Divergence]

And it had just seemed like we'd moved on from that dark era of you only win races if youre anorexic

The mistake you are making is not understanding what anorexia is.

 

[fehjammajamma]

More superb reporting:

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/th...ut-rider-weight-at-the-tour-de-france-femmes/

One toenail away from being called an alien:

Ferrand-Prévot surprises not just Visma | Lease a Bike, but especially her rivals: "She didn’t even breathe"

Pauline Ferrand-Prévot kept quiet throughout the Tour de France Femmes until she exploded on day 8 on the Col de la Madeleine. The Frenchwoman from Visma | Lease a Bike crushed everyone, including Sar...

www.idlprocycling.com

 

[awavey]

The mistake you are making is not understanding what anorexia is.

I know exactly what anorexia is and other associated eating disorders and how its affected and screwed up alot of pro female riders, lot of non pro riders too, by thinking they have to be super thin to compete. most of them youve probably never heard of because they're the ones that fall by the wayside, get spat out by the great cycling sport machine and its left to their family and friends to pick up the pieces, some of them self harm as consequence.

Thin is not beautiful or should be a training mantra by any teams DS, most of whom are carrying a few extra pounds themselves. Ive heard first hand stories how some teams would restrict food, to certain riders, ie starve them, to get them to their target weights, because power to weight ratio was the magic formula for success, and it had all manner of impacts to their body and mental health, affected menstruation and had longer term health impacts

And that's not 30-40 years ago, that was last decade stuff, I thought we'd moved on from that era, where the womens riders werent doing the crazy stuff they do men's peloton to drop weight, they were comfortable with their weight, and more importantly healthy again.

PFP might well be saying its her choice to prepare like this,though btw a cycle of sudden weight loss and gain is quite unhealthy too,but the message it sends out to alot of those standing roadside is youve got to thin to win.

But as we're in a sharing things to read mood here's Emma Pooley who's just written a book about this type of topic and healthier eating.

‘Chocolate helped me win’ – Emma Pooley on cycling’s dangerous obsession with weight

In this excerpt from her new book, the former ITT world champion reflects on her – and the peloton's – unhealthy relationship with food.

escapecollective.com

 

[fehjammajamma]

Eating disorders amongst competitive cyclists - pro and amateur - cross the gender boundary as well.

 

[Divergence]

I know exactly what anorexia is and other associated eating disorders and how its affected and screwed up alot of pro female riders, lot of non pro riders too, by thinking they have to be super thin to compete. most of them youve probably never heard of because they're the ones that fall by the wayside, get spat out by the great cycling sport machine and its left to their family and friends to pick up the pieces, some of them self harm as consequence.

Thin is not beautiful or should be a training mantra by any teams DS, most of whom are carrying a few extra pounds themselves. Ive heard first hand stories how some teams would restrict food, to certain riders, ie starve them, to get them to their target weights, because power to weight ratio was the magic formula for success, and it had all manner of impacts to their body and mental health, affected menstruation and had longer term health impacts

And that's not 30-40 years ago, that was last decade stuff, I thought we'd moved on from that era, where the womens riders werent doing the crazy stuff they do men's peloton to drop weight, they were comfortable with their weight, and more importantly healthy again.

PFP might well be saying its her choice to prepare like this,though btw a cycle of sudden weight loss and gain is quite unhealthy too,but the message it sends out to alot of those standing roadside is youve got to thin to win.

But as we're in a sharing things to read mood here's Emma Pooley who's just written a book about this type of topic and healthier eating.

‘Chocolate helped me win’ – Emma Pooley on cycling’s dangerous obsession with weight

In this excerpt from her new book, the former ITT world champion reflects on her – and the peloton's – unhealthy relationship with food.

escapecollective.com

I understand that it is very difficult to be on top of everything, i.e., have the discipline to train, eat and recover consistently every day without any hiccups. However, it is part of the talent for the sport. Just as having a large lung capacity is.
Now, because it is very hard to be on top of everything people try to find all sorts of excuses. Sure, it is not healthy to train like a monk for a prolonged period of time if you want to live a normal family life (both for men and women). However, if you want to be the best of the best you must sacrifice a huge part of the family life. And the consequences of this sacrifice can be manifested in all sorts of ways. Some just cannot sustain it. Some come to the realization some other things are more important. After all, elite sports is not for everybody.
It is not my intention to point any fingers with this post, I just want to express the truth and to acknowledge what PFP has done to be at the peak of her abilities.
I would like to mention something else as well. In the olden says starving was part of the process, they probably did not know any better. Nowadays, one does not need to starve himself/herself to be thin. One just needs to be extremely careful and disciplined. Furthermore, most DS's are pretty clueless when it comes to sports physiology and psychology. Therefore, I am pretty sure all these riders have had pretty bad experiences when it comes to nutrition, but that is in no way a proof that one does not need to be thin. For all those who might be tempted to say: yes but why not starve for 20 days and look emaciated, that will make you thin. My response is if you continue training and be able to push consistent or ever increases power during tough training sessions, there is no way you can do that if you are starving. Therefore, anybody who is training well (the first point in my introductory sentence) and who is eating well (the second point) and resting well (third point) will be able to approach the lower bound of his/her sustainable body weight and be producing excellent power. Btw a sustainable body weight is pretty low (even PFP could probably go down a bit).
To conclude: In order to be the best version of yourself you need to weigh as little as possible, but that comes with a lot of sacrifice.

 

[E_F_]

Eating disorders amongst competitive cyclists - pro and amateur - cross the gender boundary as well.

For sure. However it doesn't help to be treated as if your body has a different biology.

 

[Ripper]

She is scarily thin, as in, she is in top form. There is nothing scary from a medical point of view about her thinness. In fact, I have read this kind of comments many times (mainly regarding Remco) how it is a thin line between thinness and performance and one can get too thin and what not... The truth is (and I will add always has been) the thinner the faster. Especially when it comes to climbing. Therefore well done to PFP for her discipline and, due to that, her win.

Well, we don't know in her particular case. She is very lean, and it could be unhealthy from a medical perspective.

 

[Unchained]

I do wonder if there's not a bit of a physiological difference between men and women in not only how low they can go in body fat%, but how consistently they can be so. So for a top female rider it may make more sense to fluctuate the weight a bit more than for the top male riders.

Aside from that, for women there's probably more to gain general because they naturally have a higher body fat%.

I honestly thought this was a given with the decades of female endurance athletes commenting, complaining and suffering serious health consequences strains put on their bodies through training, diet and competition.

 

[Divergence]

Well, we don't know in her particular case. She is very lean, and it could be unhealthy from a medical perspective.

She could be for any sort of reason, but if we were to analyze her leanness alone, that would not make her unhealthy from a medical point of view.
Of course, we have to properly define what is meant by "medically unhealthy". Let us define it to be a state which would make an individual to have a lower life expectancy than otherwise. Employing this definition I would not call her medically unhealthy.
If, however, one asks the question if being in top shape to go up and down the alpine passes is conducive to being in top medical shape to have children, then there is possibly some space for a debate. Personally, I do not know the answer to that question, but if I have to guess I would say that it is probably not best for a female to be training so extremely before starting a family or before trying to start a family (by family I mean children).

 

[Red Rick]

She could be for any sort of reason, but if we were to analyze her leanness alone, that would not make her unhealthy from a medical point of view.
Of course, we have to properly define what is meant by "medically unhealthy". Let us define it to be a state which would make an individual to have a lower life expectancy than otherwise. Employing this definition I would not call her medically unhealthy.
If, however, one asks the question if being in top shape to go up and down the alpine passes is conducive to being in top medical shape to have children, then there is possibly some space for a debate. Personally, I do not know the answer to that question, but if I have to guess I would say that it is probably not best for a female to be training so extremely before starting a family or before trying to start a family (by family I mean children).

Seems pretty likely to me that the cardiovascular and muscular components of the physiology would be healthy, as basically the #1 predictor for mortatility is VO2 max at any age. The low fat% on the other handis probably bad, but I would presume the total picture is still gonna be better than average, and on top of that the athlete in question is unlikely to push the weight that low that often.

She's listed as 53 kg on PCS, I presume she's significantly lighter now?