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Indeed. And just like after Granon when people defended Vinge's atomic climbing performance that day by stating Pog had cooked himself chasing those dual attacks (which was true to an extent), i.e. explanations and excuses (in the clinic) which were blown away when Vinge demolished Pog on Hautacam (thus proving he was just better than Pog that year), PFP showed on Sunday's multi col stage that she didn't crush Madeleine the day before because of "VTT type effort" or some such absurdity, no, she crushed both Saturday and Sunday because she was by far the strongest in the race.

The end. A woman who'd never shown a GT level (even in women's cycling there is a GT level based on the types of efforts required) was now the best climber in the world. At the age of 33.

Enjoy the show.
Trolling?
 
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I can't wait for Marianne Vos to live up to that early hype and crush the TdF femmes 2026!
That stage is actually pretty infamous as it was the one where Rabo essentially blocked the road to prevent Mara Abbott from escaping until it was too late for it to make a difference, as she was the only threat to their lockout of the podium. AVDB and PFP could have climbed better and probably caught Pooley, who had been in breaks all week hunting the QOM after losing time due to nosebleeds on the first couple of days, if they weren't busy marking Abbott to oblivion in rather unsporting fashion. If Vos had successfully dropped, PFP almost certainly wins that Giro, and indeed only time bonuses made the difference between her and Vos that year anyway.

The previous stage to San Domenico di Varzo is a more representative one imo.
 
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I don't even remember this much scrutiny about AvV even though she was a Froome style late bloomer displaying ludicrous domination at about 78 years old.

Because no one cared until they did.

Let's not pretend there's even a real dataset of TdF Femmes (or women GT) 'standards' to base anything on. It's a new race i.e. the first few editions featured memorable events like semi pros ploughing into the bunch in a huge crash because hitting the breaks was above their paygrade.

PFP's sudden emergence has la reine in her 30's just pretty much reinforces this quasi amateur aspect. But notwithstanding that fact, some of these ladies have access to good equipment and good preparation. Pauline FP is one of them.
 
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It's one of those litmus tests in this sport whereby anyone who is ecstatic about PFP after today cannot ever legitimately with a straight face insinuate Vingegaard is a dirty doper (or Pog).

You're either self aware about a VTT champ suddenly becoming peak climbing goddess at the age of 33 out of nowhere whilst riding for Visma, or not.

No middle-ground, no fence sitting, no pretending Vinge is dirty whilst acting like PFP is a deity. I'm looking at quite a few people in France right now in particular.
How would you say the response was among the typical doping accusers? I saw some scepticism even from the french camp?
 
How would you say the response was among the typical doping accusers? I saw some scepticism even from the french camp?

Any of the usual crowd who talks about doping was buried under the BRAVO CHAMPIONNE onslaught and exploitation of the "emotion" by a very aggressive media. Which is expected these days.

So to answer the question, what accusations? The French only care about doping when their own guys and girls are getting wrecked out there. But when they're smashing it? Silence radio.
 
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Any of the usual crowd who talks about doping was buried under the BRAVO CHAMPIONNE onslaught and exploitation of the "emotion" by a very aggressive media. Which is expected these days.

So to answer the question, what accusations? The French only care about doping when their own guys and girls are getting wrecked out there. But when they're smashing it? Silence radio.
Well, it may not get mainstream attention, but sceptics/cynics like Anotione Vayer reacted the same way he does for Pogacar and Vingegaard. Deep suspicion and innuendo.
 
Well, it may not get mainstream attention, but sceptics/cynics like Anotione Vayer reacted the same way he does for Pogacar and Vingegaard. Deep suspicion and innuendo.

Man, if Vayer is all we have on the anti-dope crusade then we're screwed, I'm telling ya... screwed.

Seriously. I also think there's some sort of history between Marion Rousse and Vayer as well like bad blood over something he was involved in when he wrote for l'Humanité (& was fired over a caricature relating to Rousse): https://rmcsport.bfmtv.com/cyclisme...teur-et-d-un-chroniqueur_AV-202009070452.html

And of course Marion Rousse is super close to PFP (or at least made sure to appear that way for maximum pr effect).

l'anti-dopage... se porte mal. Too many vested interests in making sure the men and women's side of the sport succeeds financially and the people involved on the "tell all" investigative side have too many skeletons in their closets ergo their influence is quasi non-existent. It's a bad time for accountability... and this is reflected in the stratospherically inhuman performances and jumps in levels we're seeing in both men's and women's cycling.
 
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Man, if Vayer is all we have on the anti-dope crusade then we're screwed, I'm telling ya... screwed.

Seriously. I also think there's some sort of history between Marion Rousse and Vayer as well like bad blood over something he was involved in when he wrote for l'Humanité (& was fired over a caricature relating to Rousse): https://rmcsport.bfmtv.com/cyclisme...teur-et-d-un-chroniqueur_AV-202009070452.html

And of course Marion Rousse is super close to PFP (or at least made sure to appear that way for maximum pr effect).

l'anti-dopage... se porte mal. Too many vested interests in making sure the men and women's side of the sport succeeds financially and the people involved on the "tell all" investigative side have too many skeletons in their closets ergo their influence is quasi non-existent. It's a bad time for accountability... and this is reflected in the stratospherically inhuman performances and jumps in levels we're seeing in both men's and women's cycling.
Vayer is a clown but he's not the only one who question PFP. Many do also in the french camp. And my guess is that many of the french cynics will close their mouth when Seixas crush climbing records in the future.

To keep it more on topic, Visma certaintly know how to prepare for great climbing performance in le tour. That's the evidence we have at this point. The best hint we have of something else is just CO breathing which is a bit odd.
 
I guess the weight loss was noticed in the women's field:

It's elite sports, if she put her health first she would end her career right away. Demi never misses an opportunity to say something stupid.

Everyone can decide for themselves how far they are willing to go to perform in a sport. Scoffing and puffing at other people's decisions just look bad. Also, the "we are role models" argument is one that looks relevant on paper and is completely irrelevant in reality. People can think for themselves and don't mimic the behavior mindlessly of people on TV. I didn't try to out-dope Ricco and Vino, or out-diet Michael Rasmussen watching them as a kid.
 
Man, that's a depressingly misogynistic and dismissive take on a serious issue - weight - that impacts young female athletes disproportionately.
Misogynistic??? Not at all. Nor would I ever intend to be. Keep your accusations to yourself.

However, it is dismissive of Demi's comments in the sense that at an elite sports level, the athletes are going to push the limits all the way. You don't think all the men are doing the same?
 
Regarding PRP's physique it's a no secret that in any endurance sport involving gravity body fat percentage (and overall mass) should be very low. In many cases it's extremely low: just look at African marathon runners or... fellow Visma star Vingegaard. Sure, there is a limit, but looking at PRP's rides she clearly didn't cross performance decline red line.
 
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Yes, that's definitely what I'm saying.

If you don't see any problem here, you're tacitly part of the problem.
Please explain the problem. The way I see it is as follows. Road cycling is an endurance sport where most the most spectacular stages are cycled on mountainous routes (that is what the essence of road cycling is imho) and most time can be gained or lost on these stages. And to perform well on mountainous stages you need to have the highest possible W/kg. Now obviously PFP trained well and was very disciplined and she managed to reach a very high W/kg and she subsequently destroyed everybody at the TdFF.
On the other hand, Demi said some off the shelve answer such as I am proud of my body. That does not mean anything when it comes to road cycling. The question is if she wants to improve in order to compete or not. And she is free to give her answer there and do what she wants.
The reality is that road cycling is a brutal sport and one has the be very talented in order to be able to bear out all the training and be able to rest and recover properly. Another reality is that professional road cycling (and many other sports) are not for everybody. If you are not talented than every training session will be a torture, you will never be rested and thus never be able to achieve good body weight.
Therefore, maybe the problem is that people are telling everybody that they can be whatever they want and that brings resentment and problems rather than people being truthful with you people and tell them the difficulties of the sport and that only the very best will be successful.
 
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The reality is that road cycling is a brutal sport and one has the be very talented in order to be able to bear out all the training and be able to rest and recover properly. Another reality is that professional road cycling (and many other sports) are not for everybody. If you are not talented than every training session will be a torture, you will never be rested and thus never be able to achieve good body weight.
Therefore, maybe the problem is that people are telling everybody that they can be whatever they want and that brings resentment and problems rather than people being truthful with you people and tell them the difficulties of the sport and that only the very best will be successful.
Exactly right! That's also why it is professional sports and not amateur sports - not everyone get a medal for showing up and doing their best. Most pro sports are certaintly not healthy for the athlethes - it has very little to do with health in fact.

Feel free to organize a competition for riders with BMI above 18, and limiting their training to 15 hours a week? At least that would ensure a somewhat normal winner.
 

fehjammajamma

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Please explain the problem. The way I see it is as follows. Road cycling is an endurance sport where most the most spectacular stages are cycled on mountainous routes (that is what the essence of road cycling is imho) and most time can be gained or lost on these stages. And to perform well on mountainous stages you need to have the highest possible W/kg. Now obviously PFP trained well and was very disciplined and she managed to reach a very high W/kg and she subsequently destroyed everybody at the TdFF.
On the other hand, Demi said some off the shelve answer such as I am proud of my body. That does not mean anything when it comes to road cycling. The question is if she wants to improve in order to compete or not. And she is free to give her answer there and do what she wants.
The reality is that road cycling is a brutal sport and one has the be very talented in order to be able to bear out all the training and be able to rest and recover properly. Another reality is that professional road cycling (and many other sports) are not for everybody. If you are not talented than every training session will be a torture, you will never be rested and thus never be able to achieve good body weight.
Therefore, maybe the problem is that people are telling everybody that they can be whatever they want and that brings resentment and problems rather than people being truthful with you people and tell them the difficulties of the sport and that only the very best will be successful.

Ain't no one reading all this.

This place is like the semantic Special Olympics.
 
Jun 18, 2025
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With Vos and van Vleuten, there is still an element of, for many years the sport's pinnacle was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Pre-WWT days and while most of the major races were organised by enthusiastic amateurs while people like ASO refused to broadcast a single second of the few races they bothered to arrange, the lack of money in women's cycling often meant that only the small handful at the very top of the sport were able to dedicate themselves full-time, and as a result of that they would typically then dominate because they were beating part-timers, and so the rapid development of the WWT has meant that some of the veterans of that era were still getting that benefit late on in their careers. Vos was crazy successful very young, which meant that her longevity also makes her seem older than she is, after all she's five years younger than van Vleuten but was already an established champion when van Vleuten went full time already in her late 20s.

The other thing was that with the races largely organised by enthusiastic amateurs on shoestring budgets, parcours trends became rather samey, even further playing into the hands of the select few who could maximise their results by giving them hegemony over the largest part of the calendar. Races frequently focused on sprints and/or hilly circuits where willing hosts would see multiple stages around a small geographical area, often starting and finishing in the same town or being a pure circuit race, or simply padding distance in point-to-point races by adding flat loops of the start town or similar. This meant that a certain type of rider was explicitly favoured by the parcours trends of the time, and the péloton did not get the chance to separate into individual types of specialist; a one-dimensional TT rider or mountain goat was simply not valuable in enough races unless they were a complete outlier, talent-wise, like Mara Abbott. This actually got worse, not better, in the 2000s; as Fabiana Luperini aged out and a few doping scandals rocked the Giro Donne, the parcours simplified (seeing riders like Edita Pučinskaite and Nicole Cooke complaining about the race being made easier) and race days reduced, while the 2008 financial crisis put paid to the ailing Grande Boucle Féminine and the Tour de l'Aude, taking two previously challenging stage races that had included major climbs off the calendar. The battle over the title of the French stage race with the GBF and Route de France organisers being at loggerheads with each other and ASO protecting their trademarks only served to make things worse, preventing a proper French focus to the calendar and limiting the importance of either race, while Spanish women's cycling was almost completely annihilated by the consecutive hits of Joane Somarriba's retirement and Maribel Moreno's doping case coming off the back of the overall hits to Spanish cycling from Operación Puerto and the financial crisis decimating the domestic scene. It took a decade for it to recover even to the state it is in now, with only the Basques putting on a couple of races and some underfunded but enthusiastic small teams like Bizkaia-Durango and Lointek keeping the fire alive for the duration of the 2010s until Movistar eventually stepped in.

There might be a few saw-toothed stages in races like Emakumeen Bira, and a few longer climbs in the Tour de l'Ardêche, but stages that would be classed as true mountain stages in women's cycling dwindled from being in a handful of decent stage races in the 90s and early 00s to almost zero in the late 00s and early 2010s. For example, for the year 2010, CQ records only 27 race days on the womens' calendar as being mountain stages. Of these, 12 are at the .NE status (most of which in the US), and some are in countries like the Czech Republic and Sweden which are hardly known for their high passes. Three are stages of the Tour de l'Aude (last edition), three are stages of the Emakumeen Bira, two are stages of the Tour de l'Ardêche, and four are stages of the Giro. That means that outside of those four races, there were literally THREE mountain stages across the pro calendar. That is something of a misnomer, as there will be some stages that included mountains but were not recorded by CQ as mountain stages, as there always are, but I think it's pretty illustrative of what we're working with here. There was no Tour de Suisse, no Vuelta, no Tour (only a couple of small races trying their damnedest to be a French stage race but often without too many serious challenges, and the Route de France would often have a Vosges stage as its only mountain stage), no Burgos, no Avenir, no Catalunya, no Romandie, all of which tend to have a mountain stage or two. Instead there was Bira (now Itzulia), the Giro, one stage of Toscana (which many riders boycotted after problems with traffic getting onto the course anyway), and after 2010 there wasn't even Aude. There was Trentino, but that ran inconsistently, being sometimes a one day race, sometimes a two or three-day stage race, and sometimes not running at all - but that's the only genuinely mountainous race that's disappeared while the calendar has been building up those other stage races.

As a result though, riders who were adept at climbing mountains AND had skillsets for the undulating/hilly terrain that proliferated around the calendar, such as van der Breggen or van Vleuten, had ample opportunity to develop and train at a higher level than riders who specialised solely in the mountains, as riders of that nature simply weren't valuable enough, year-round, to be invested in by the biggest teams, and that's often why you saw them flame out or be one-off successes, like Francesca Cauz or Kseniya Tuhai. I occasionally wonder what could have been with some of these riders. I've referenced before Eleonora Patuzzo, a young Italian rider who beat the likes of van der Breggen in the Junior Worlds and finished 22nd in Emakumeen Bira at 17, finishing 6th in it at 20, winning a mountain stage of the Giro del Trentino ahead of people like Arndt, Häusler, Pooley and Pučinskaite, but retired at 22 to pursue education. A rider with the skillset of, say, Pauliena Rooijakkers, would have been under-valued for those years (and indeed Pauliena herself spent half a decade toiling away as an occasional figure on Parkhotel Valkenburg before the parcours trends enabled her to become more of a valuable figure to higher tier teams) because there weren't enough races for her to use her best skills to make it worth investing the time and effort into developing her purely for that skillset. Riders like Cédrine Kerbaol or Marion Bunel, they're way more valuable than they would have been 15 years ago, and not just for being French or any comment on France's actions around a home Olympics, just based on their skillsets.

That process is changing. It is still in the process of changing, as we can see from the fact that the field still splinters to a very select number very quickly on these long ascents. There was a gap of 4'31 from PFP down to 10th place yesterday, and 9'23 down to 20th. But then, on Hautacam in the men's Tour de France, it was 7'06 from Pogačar to 10th place, and 11'47 down to 20th, and they have had plenty of chances to ride proper mountain stages for decades.
Nice and very informative post. Thanks for that!
 

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