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Why are we all so convinced that Pogacar and/or Vingegaard had off-the-charts, fully-juiced performances today?

Is it only the climbing records?

Because depending on whichever historical record climb time we are comparing with, the record (Mayo, shorter segment) was beaten today by Pog, Vingegaard, Roglic and Lipowitz, or (Pantani, full climb) by those 4 as well as Onley, Carlos Rodriguez, Aranburu, Gall, and Adam Yates. Pantani just edges out climbing greats like Raul Garcia Pierna and Kevin Vauquelin.
 
It's one of those litmus tests in this sport whereby anyone who is ecstatic about PFP after today cannot ever legitimately with a straight face insinuate Vingegaard is a dirty doper (or Pog).

You're either self aware about a VTT champ suddenly becoming peak climbing goddess at the age of 33 out of nowhere whilst riding for Visma, or not.

No middle-ground, no fence sitting, no pretending Vinge is dirty whilst acting like PFP is a deity. I'm looking at quite a few people in France right now in particular.
 
It's one of those litmus tests in this sport whereby anyone who is ecstatic about PFP after today cannot ever legitimately with a straight face insinuate Vingegaard is a dirty doper (or Pog).

You're either self aware about a VTT champ suddenly becoming peak climbing goddess at the age of 33 out of nowhere whilst riding for Visma, or not.

No middle-ground, no fence sitting, no pretending Vinge is dirty whilst acting like PFP is a deity. I'm looking at quite a few people in France right now in particular.
Guess what, Vingegaard and Pogačar are dirty dopers and so is basically anyone who wins a pro bike race these days, yet I can still be ecstatic about some wins. I‘m also not french or pretending PFP is a deity though.
 
So, PFP has a long and winning history in so many different endeavors, I am curious, which one(s) is(are) the most suspicious? Is she more a climber, or more a powerhouse aka PR smasher? I think her climbing was generally her wheelhouse, with technical aspects of MTB being something she needed to develop. But she seems to now just have lots of power, so climbs and cobbles ... all the same to her. PFP and TP are like cycling packmen
 
It's one of those litmus tests in this sport whereby anyone who is ecstatic about PFP after today cannot ever legitimately with a straight face insinuate Vingegaard is a dirty doper (or Pog).

You're either self aware about a VTT champ suddenly becoming peak climbing goddess at the age of 33 out of nowhere whilst riding for Visma, or not.

No middle-ground, no fence sitting, no pretending Vinge is dirty whilst acting like PFP is a deity. I'm looking at quite a few people in France right now in particular.
She has been a top tier racer for over a decade and everybody knows she can climb. Esp the MTB time has only done well for her. Why are you surprised at her quality?
 
People need to go and watch the 2020, 2022, 2023 XCO World champs and 2024 Olympic champs races; all won from the first lap on the climbs - and on a Hardtail........today was just more of the same. She hasn't just turned into a climber, that's been her main weapon for years......
Sure, but if a man at 33 y/o dominating lesser cycling disciplines suddenly turns road and dominates the hardest MTF in TdF.. then you can talk about hardtails, climbing being her weapon etc. all you want.

Now, I know its different in women's cycling, but still, imagine a rider suddenly smashing Jonas and Pogi to bits like this from 'nowhere'.
 
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Sure, but if a man at 33 y/o dominating lesser cycling disciplines suddenly turns road and dominates the hardest MTF in TdF.. then you can talk about hardtails, climbing being her weapon etc. all you want.

Now, I know its different in women's cycling, but still, imagine a rider suddenly smashing Jonas and Pogi to bits like this from 'nowhere'.
That analogy would work if that happened but it's also clear Pogacar and Vingegaard clearly weren't at their own usual level themselves
 
That analogy would work if that happened but it's also clear Pogacar and Vingegaard clearly weren't at their own usual level themselves
Its pretty clear to me Jonas was at his best level, but forgot he needed to ride 21 days instead of 19. Pog was most likely just as good as 2024 until Tobias Johannesen recklessly crashed him 1 days before the mountains and laughed about it to Norwegian TV afterwards.

Difference is just too big nowadays, thats all.

And ofc that analogy still works.
 
Sure, but if a man at 33 y/o dominating lesser cycling disciplines suddenly turns road and dominates the hardest MTF in TdF.. then you can talk about hardtails, climbing being her weapon etc. all you want.

Now, I know its different in women's cycling, but still, imagine a rider suddenly smashing Jonas and Pogi to bits like this from 'nowhere'.
Jean-Christophe Péraud turned road pro at 32, and finished on the podium of the Tour in 2014 at 37. PFP is a far more accomplished MTB pro than Péraud ever was, and also had far superior previous palmarès in road cycling.

I'm not going to say I didn't baulk a bit at the way she kept on riding away or that the way she is so good at super-peaking and gets her wattage stats significantly buffed in races taking place in France, but neither am I going to say that I'm that surprised she has this level, seeing as she's always been an elite level cyclist, and she would have won the Giro over a decade ago if not for bonus seconds or if she'd been allowed to attack her own teammate (or just not block the road when Abbott was trying to attack on the Madonna del Ghisallo). And of the three women that beat her in the queen stage that year, two were the pre-eminent climbers of their generation and are both long-retired, and one was in the race today, after 3 years not just away from road cycling but not racing at all.
 
Aug 3, 2025
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PFP is likely up to some of the same funny business as others, but come on - she's been tearing up all cycling disciplines her entire career. This isn't out of nowhere.


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Take your pick, i.e. juiced up to her eyeballs after going on a binge for the Olympics last year and riding that wave (basically the Wiggo effect) or the level of the women's peloton is even more embarrassing than that of the WTA and that's saying something. I mean hello people, what, do you think the French don't didn't dope everyone for Paris last year and only the evil Brits did such a thing? Ha.

Frankly I say it's a bit of both. In PFP's defense, old ladies like Van Vleuten and Marianne Vos were schooling (& still are with regards the latter) the women's side of the sport for years and years. Just look at the races, i.e. there's basically two dozen riders with a pro pedigree and the rest are a mishmash of various levels ranging from acceptable to "how is she even a pro".

That's the non-pc version.

People need to go and watch the 2020, 2022, 2023 XCO World champs and 2024 Olympic champs races; all won from the first lap on the climbs - and on a Hardtail........today was just more of the same. She hasn't just turned into a climber, that's been her main weapon for years......

Yo, I'll remember this one when Pidders rips up the Tour when he's 33. Or why not MvdP as well.
 
Take your pick, i.e. juiced up to her eyeballs after going on a binge for the Olympics last year and riding that wave (basically the Wiggo effect) or the level of the women's peloton is even more embarrassing than that of the WTA and that's saying something. I mean hello people, what, do you think the French don't didn't dope everyone for Paris last year and only the evil Brits did such a thing? Ha.

Frankly I say it's a bit of both. In PFP's defense, old ladies like Van Vleuten and Marianne Vos were schooling (& still are with regards the latter) the women's side of the sport for years and years. Just look at the races, i.e. there's basically two dozen riders with a pro pedigree and the rest are a mishmash of various levels ranging from acceptable to "how is she even a pro".

That's the non-pc version.



Yo, I'll remember this one when Pidders rips up the Tour when he's 33. Or why not MvdP as well.
With Vos and van Vleuten, there is still an element of, for many years the sport's pinnacle was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Pre-WWT days and while most of the major races were organised by enthusiastic amateurs while people like ASO refused to broadcast a single second of the few races they bothered to arrange, the lack of money in women's cycling often meant that only the small handful at the very top of the sport were able to dedicate themselves full-time, and as a result of that they would typically then dominate because they were beating part-timers, and so the rapid development of the WWT has meant that some of the veterans of that era were still getting that benefit late on in their careers. Vos was crazy successful very young, which meant that her longevity also makes her seem older than she is, after all she's five years younger than van Vleuten but was already an established champion when van Vleuten went full time already in her late 20s.

The other thing was that with the races largely organised by enthusiastic amateurs on shoestring budgets, parcours trends became rather samey, even further playing into the hands of the select few who could maximise their results by giving them hegemony over the largest part of the calendar. Races frequently focused on sprints and/or hilly circuits where willing hosts would see multiple stages around a small geographical area, often starting and finishing in the same town or being a pure circuit race, or simply padding distance in point-to-point races by adding flat loops of the start town or similar. This meant that a certain type of rider was explicitly favoured by the parcours trends of the time, and the péloton did not get the chance to separate into individual types of specialist; a one-dimensional TT rider or mountain goat was simply not valuable in enough races unless they were a complete outlier, talent-wise, like Mara Abbott. This actually got worse, not better, in the 2000s; as Fabiana Luperini aged out and a few doping scandals rocked the Giro Donne, the parcours simplified (seeing riders like Edita Pučinskaite and Nicole Cooke complaining about the race being made easier) and race days reduced, while the 2008 financial crisis put paid to the ailing Grande Boucle Féminine and the Tour de l'Aude, taking two previously challenging stage races that had included major climbs off the calendar. The battle over the title of the French stage race with the GBF and Route de France organisers being at loggerheads with each other and ASO protecting their trademarks only served to make things worse, preventing a proper French focus to the calendar and limiting the importance of either race, while Spanish women's cycling was almost completely annihilated by the consecutive hits of Joane Somarriba's retirement and Maribel Moreno's doping case coming off the back of the overall hits to Spanish cycling from Operación Puerto and the financial crisis decimating the domestic scene. It took a decade for it to recover even to the state it is in now, with only the Basques putting on a couple of races and some underfunded but enthusiastic small teams like Bizkaia-Durango and Lointek keeping the fire alive for the duration of the 2010s until Movistar eventually stepped in.

There might be a few saw-toothed stages in races like Emakumeen Bira, and a few longer climbs in the Tour de l'Ardêche, but stages that would be classed as true mountain stages in women's cycling dwindled from being in a handful of decent stage races in the 90s and early 00s to almost zero in the late 00s and early 2010s. For example, for the year 2010, CQ records only 27 race days on the womens' calendar as being mountain stages. Of these, 12 are at the .NE status (most of which in the US), and some are in countries like the Czech Republic and Sweden which are hardly known for their high passes. Three are stages of the Tour de l'Aude (last edition), three are stages of the Emakumeen Bira, two are stages of the Tour de l'Ardêche, and four are stages of the Giro. That means that outside of those four races, there were literally THREE mountain stages across the pro calendar. That is something of a misnomer, as there will be some stages that included mountains but were not recorded by CQ as mountain stages, as there always are, but I think it's pretty illustrative of what we're working with here. There was no Tour de Suisse, no Vuelta, no Tour (only a couple of small races trying their damnedest to be a French stage race but often without too many serious challenges, and the Route de France would often have a Vosges stage as its only mountain stage), no Burgos, no Avenir, no Catalunya, no Romandie, all of which tend to have a mountain stage or two. Instead there was Bira (now Itzulia), the Giro, one stage of Toscana (which many riders boycotted after problems with traffic getting onto the course anyway), and after 2010 there wasn't even Aude. There was Trentino, but that ran inconsistently, being sometimes a one day race, sometimes a two or three-day stage race, and sometimes not running at all - but that's the only genuinely mountainous race that's disappeared while the calendar has been building up those other stage races.

As a result though, riders who were adept at climbing mountains AND had skillsets for the undulating/hilly terrain that proliferated around the calendar, such as van der Breggen or van Vleuten, had ample opportunity to develop and train at a higher level than riders who specialised solely in the mountains, as riders of that nature simply weren't valuable enough, year-round, to be invested in by the biggest teams, and that's often why you saw them flame out or be one-off successes, like Francesca Cauz or Kseniya Tuhai. I occasionally wonder what could have been with some of these riders. I've referenced before Eleonora Patuzzo, a young Italian rider who beat the likes of van der Breggen in the Junior Worlds and finished 22nd in Emakumeen Bira at 17, finishing 6th in it at 20, winning a mountain stage of the Giro del Trentino ahead of people like Arndt, Häusler, Pooley and Pučinskaite, but retired at 22 to pursue education. A rider with the skillset of, say, Pauliena Rooijakkers, would have been under-valued for those years (and indeed Pauliena herself spent half a decade toiling away as an occasional figure on Parkhotel Valkenburg before the parcours trends enabled her to become more of a valuable figure to higher tier teams) because there weren't enough races for her to use her best skills to make it worth investing the time and effort into developing her purely for that skillset. Riders like Cédrine Kerbaol or Marion Bunel, they're way more valuable than they would have been 15 years ago, and not just for being French or any comment on France's actions around a home Olympics, just based on their skillsets.

That process is changing. It is still in the process of changing, as we can see from the fact that the field still splinters to a very select number very quickly on these long ascents. There was a gap of 4'31 from PFP down to 10th place yesterday, and 9'23 down to 20th. But then, on Hautacam in the men's Tour de France, it was 7'06 from Pogačar to 10th place, and 11'47 down to 20th, and they have had plenty of chances to ride proper mountain stages for decades.
 
With Vos and van Vleuten, there is still an element of, for many years the sport's pinnacle was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Pre-WWT days and while most of the major races were organised by enthusiastic amateurs while people like ASO refused to broadcast a single second of the few races they bothered to arrange, the lack of money in women's cycling often meant that only the small handful at the very top of the sport were able to dedicate themselves full-time, and as a result of that they would typically then dominate because they were beating part-timers, and so the rapid development of the WWT has meant that some of the veterans of that era were still getting that benefit late on in their careers. Vos was crazy successful very young, which meant that her longevity also makes her seem older than she is, after all she's five years younger than van Vleuten but was already an established champion when van Vleuten went full time already in her late 20s.

The other thing was that with the races largely organised by enthusiastic amateurs on shoestring budgets, parcours trends became rather samey, even further playing into the hands of the select few who could maximise their results by giving them hegemony over the largest part of the calendar. Races frequently focused on sprints and/or hilly circuits where willing hosts would see multiple stages around a small geographical area, often starting and finishing in the same town or being a pure circuit race, or simply padding distance in point-to-point races by adding flat loops of the start town or similar. This meant that a certain type of rider was explicitly favoured by the parcours trends of the time, and the péloton did not get the chance to separate into individual types of specialist; a one-dimensional TT rider or mountain goat was simply not valuable in enough races unless they were a complete outlier, talent-wise, like Mara Abbott. This actually got worse, not better, in the 2000s; as Fabiana Luperini aged out and a few doping scandals rocked the Giro Donne, the parcours simplified (seeing riders like Edita Pučinskaite and Nicole Cooke complaining about the race being made easier) and race days reduced, while the 2008 financial crisis put paid to the ailing Grande Boucle Féminine and the Tour de l'Aude, taking two previously challenging stage races that had included major climbs off the calendar. The battle over the title of the French stage race with the GBF and Route de France organisers being at loggerheads with each other and ASO protecting their trademarks only served to make things worse, preventing a proper French focus to the calendar and limiting the importance of either race, while Spanish women's cycling was almost completely annihilated by the consecutive hits of Joane Somarriba's retirement and Maribel Moreno's doping case coming off the back of the overall hits to Spanish cycling from Operación Puerto and the financial crisis decimating the domestic scene. It took a decade for it to recover even to the state it is in now, with only the Basques putting on a couple of races and some underfunded but enthusiastic small teams like Bizkaia-Durango and Lointek keeping the fire alive for the duration of the 2010s until Movistar eventually stepped in.

There might be a few saw-toothed stages in races like Emakumeen Bira, and a few longer climbs in the Tour de l'Ardêche, but stages that would be classed as true mountain stages in women's cycling dwindled from being in a handful of decent stage races in the 90s and early 00s to almost zero in the late 00s and early 2010s. For example, for the year 2010, CQ records only 27 race days on the womens' calendar as being mountain stages. Of these, 12 are at the .NE status (most of which in the US), and some are in countries like the Czech Republic and Sweden which are hardly known for their high passes. Three are stages of the Tour de l'Aude (last edition), three are stages of the Emakumeen Bira, two are stages of the Tour de l'Ardêche, and four are stages of the Giro. That means that outside of those four races, there were literally THREE mountain stages across the pro calendar. That is something of a misnomer, as there will be some stages that included mountains but were not recorded by CQ as mountain stages, as there always are, but I think it's pretty illustrative of what we're working with here. There was no Tour de Suisse, no Vuelta, no Tour (only a couple of small races trying their damnedest to be a French stage race but often without too many serious challenges, and the Route de France would often have a Vosges stage as its only mountain stage), no Burgos, no Avenir, no Catalunya, no Romandie, all of which tend to have a mountain stage or two. Instead there was Bira (now Itzulia), the Giro, one stage of Toscana (which many riders boycotted after problems with traffic getting onto the course anyway), and after 2010 there wasn't even Aude. There was Trentino, but that ran inconsistently, being sometimes a one day race, sometimes a two or three-day stage race, and sometimes not running at all - but that's the only genuinely mountainous race that's disappeared while the calendar has been building up those other stage races.

As a result though, riders who were adept at climbing mountains AND had skillsets for the undulating/hilly terrain that proliferated around the calendar, such as van der Breggen or van Vleuten, had ample opportunity to develop and train at a higher level than riders who specialised solely in the mountains, as riders of that nature simply weren't valuable enough, year-round, to be invested in by the biggest teams, and that's often why you saw them flame out or be one-off successes, like Francesca Cauz or Kseniya Tuhai. I occasionally wonder what could have been with some of these riders. I've referenced before Eleonora Patuzzo, a young Italian rider who beat the likes of van der Breggen in the Junior Worlds and finished 22nd in Emakumeen Bira at 17, finishing 6th in it at 20, winning a mountain stage of the Giro del Trentino ahead of people like Arndt, Häusler, Pooley and Pučinskaite, but retired at 22 to pursue education. A rider with the skillset of, say, Pauliena Rooijakkers, would have been under-valued for those years (and indeed Pauliena herself spent half a decade toiling away as an occasional figure on Parkhotel Valkenburg before the parcours trends enabled her to become more of a valuable figure to higher tier teams) because there weren't enough races for her to use her best skills to make it worth investing the time and effort into developing her purely for that skillset. Riders like Cédrine Kerbaol or Marion Bunel, they're way more valuable than they would have been 15 years ago, and not just for being French or any comment on France's actions around a home Olympics, just based on their skillsets.

That process is changing. It is still in the process of changing, as we can see from the fact that the field still splinters to a very select number very quickly on these long ascents. There was a gap of 4'31 from PFP down to 10th place yesterday, and 9'23 down to 20th. But then, on Hautacam in the men's Tour de France, it was 7'06 from Pogačar to 10th place, and 11'47 down to 20th, and they have had plenty of chances to ride proper mountain stages for decades.
Worth adding that Hautacam was climbed in 35 minutes and Madeleine in 65 minutes.
 
That process is changing. It is still in the process of changing, as we can see from the fact that the field still splinters to a very select number very quickly on these long ascents. There was a gap of 4'31 from PFP down to 10th place yesterday, and 9'23 down to 20th. But then, on Hautacam in the men's Tour de France, it was 7'06 from Pogačar to 10th place, and 11'47 down to 20th, and they have had plenty of chances to ride proper mountain stages for decades.

Interesting read, thanks.

I don't perceive women's cycling as a separate entity per se though. It's too reductive and too binary considering the actual reality of what we're seeing and 'who' these top performing cyclists ride for, aka teams and people highly involved with the men's side of the sport and in the 'loop' regarding how to prepare for real like a pro with everything that entails. Also within this context, in the men's peloton the gaps we're seeing recently are an outlier and something we haven't seen in decades, i.e. Pog's dominance is a return to the 90's and that's not a compliment. It's evidence of some serious preparation inequalities on the medical side. This is demonstrably proven by the dominance of his team everywhere all season with different winners.

So regarding the women, I don't see Pauline FP as a product of "women's cycling" or its adjacent organisms but right now solely a product of her own career handing and her recent success is contingent on the choices made for the Olympics and at Visma.

I'm a realist. PFP is married to Dylan van Baarle and rides for Visma. She's got the best expertise and the pillow talk to back it all up. So in this context it's really not a fair fight.

She's also scarily thin right now to a very noticeable degree, i.e. before her 'heroics' over this weekend sucked the oxygen out of the room and turned everyone seemingly into mindless consumers of the sport's offerings, her physical quasi-anorexia did cause a stir last week and was discussed. We'll see if that gets mentioned again once the dust has settled, i.e. her transformation from Roubaix to late July is pretty scary stuff.
 
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Interesting read, thanks.

I don't perceive women's cycling as a separate entity per se though. It's too reductive and too binary considering the actual reality of what we're seeing and 'who' these top performing cyclists ride for, aka teams and people highly involved with the men's side of the sport and in the 'loop' regarding how to prepare for real like a pro with everything that entails. Also within this context, in the men's peloton the gaps we're seeing recently are an outlier and something we haven't seen in decades, i.e. Pog's dominance is a return to the 90's and that's not a compliment. It's evidence of some serious preparation inequalities on the medical side. This is demonstrably proven by the dominance of his team everywhere all season with different winners.

So regarding the women, I don't see Pauline FP as a product of "women's cycling" or its adjacent organisms but right now solely a product of her own career handing and her recent success is contingent on the choices made for the Olympics and at Visma.

I'm a realist. PFP is married to Dylan van Baarle and rides for Visma. She's got the best expertise and the pillow talk to back it all up. So in this context it's really not a fair fight.

She's also scarily thin right now to a very noticeable degree, i.e. before her 'heroics' over this weekend sucked the oxygen out of the room and turned everyone seemingly into mindless consumers of the sport's offerings, her physical quasi-anorexia did cause a stir last week and was discussed. We'll see if that gets mentioned again once the dust has settled, i.e. her transformation from Roubaix to late July is pretty scary stuff.
Reminds me of Van Baarle for the 2023 TdF, guy was thinner than most gc riders.
The writing was on the wall when her friend, race director of the TdFF and media darling Marion Rousse proclaimed that Hinault's successor would be female, from that moment on I expected her to be thermonuclear.