Team Visma LAB

[noob]

Are they doingThe Trilogy again? Is Kelderman winning the Vuelta??

If they can't get Kelderman a win somewhere, anywhere with anything in his veins I'd be so disappointed 😂😂😂

I believe it's Jonas twice if anything sadly.

 

[Pozzovivo]

Mate Landis attack was an extra 100k lol. And what a beautiful day that was.

Of course but the "turning of the table" aspect is similar. Maybe not the best paralell.

 

[Red Rick]

So we aren't going to act like Del Toro wasn't even chasing?
I don't think Yates was that unbelievable today IMO. Del Toro and UAE threw the race away by refusing to ride. Pretty embarrassing from UAE and I loved it.

Pretty much. Yates was great but not paradigm shattering or anything. I don't get the obsession with the Finestre record. It's a climb that's very rare, and that's never paced aggressively enough, etcetc. All things considered, 2 minutes 47s faster than Rujano in 2011 is anything but crazy.

Really though, it's not just UAE not chasing, it starts with UAE deciding Del Toro should just blow himself up trying to follow Carapaz.

 

[AttaqueDeRolland]

All things considered, 2 minutes 47s faster than Rujano in 2011 is anything but crazy.

Agreed, especially so considering that EF went thermonuclear from kilometer zero of Finestre and had launched Carapaz within basically the first kilometer of the climb. If EF hadn't been so aggressive, we likely would've seen Majka and McNulty steadily control the tempo up until the gravel section, in which case they definitely wouldn't have beaten Rujano's time.

 

[Red Rick]

Agreed, especially so considering that EF went thermonuclear from kilometer zero of Finestre and had launched Carapaz within basically the first kilometer of the climb. If EF hadn't been so aggressive, we likely would've seen Majka and McNulty steadily control the tempo up until the gravel section, in which case they definitely wouldn't have beaten Rujano's time.

They would have, because Majka and McNulty almost did Rujano's time. Sooner or later Carapaz and Yates would have started attacking and they would have made up a lot of ground.

And based on the day before, I think the Jumbo and EF team had enough domestiques to do a 6.0 W/kg pace for the first 25-35 minutes.

 

[meat puppet]

In one sense Rick is right, and spanking the 2011 Rujano by 3mins ain't no thang by today's standards. In another sense this just testifies how far down the rabbit hole cycling is. Rujano wasn't cleanz either.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

In one sense Rick is right, and spanking the 2011 Rujano by 3mins ain't no thang by today's standards. In another sense this just testifies how far down the rabbit hole cycling is. Rujano wasn't cleanz either.

Yates maintained like 1710 m/h of VAM practically for a whole hour. It's very good considering that the last 8 km were gravel (but I'm really not sure how detrimental it is: depends on weather conditions etc). OTOH avg. gradient of 9.2% makes high VAM easier to achieve compared to "standard" 7-8%-ish climbs.

 

[meat puppet]

Yates maintained like 1710 m/h of VAM practically for a whole hour. It's very good considering that the last 8 km were gravel (but I'm really not sure how detrimental it is: depends on weather conditions etc). OTOH avg. gradient of 9.2% makes high VAM easier to achieve compared to "standard" 7-8%-ish climbs.

Yes, I believe the technical term is nucking futs.

 

[ashhutch1997]

All things considered, 2 minutes 47s faster than Rujano in 2011 is anything but crazy.

No it isn't, especially when you consider how brutal the 2011 Giro was. Also, people talking about Chris Froome's time being 5 minutes slower, you can't compare. The Finestre came over 75k out in 2018, so obviously Froome paced himself more, Yates could go full gas given he had WVA in the valley, it was almost a summit finish essentially.
I'm don't believe for one second that Yates is clean, I don't think any of them are, but I think all things considered there's been a bit of an overreaction on here about Yates.

 

[Red Rick]

Yates maintained like 1710 m/h of VAM practically for a whole hour. It's very good considering that the last 8 km were gravel (but I'm really not sure how detrimental it is: depends on weather conditions etc). OTOH avg. gradient of 9.2% makes high VAM easier to achieve compared to "standard" 7-8%-ish climbs.

Col de Portet went at 1686 VAM for 48 minute back in 2021 and it was later in the stage coming directly after Peyeresourde and Agnes. It's also slightly higher, especially for average altitude, and less steep

Gamoniteiru went at 1710 for 49 minutes the day after madness ont he Covadonga at the end of a 175km multi mountain stage that was kinda pedalled softly. And i think it must be said Gamoniteiru was paced less than aggressively

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Col de Portet went at 1686 VAM for 48 minute back in 2021 and it was later in the stage coming directly after Peyeresourde and Agnes. It's also slightly higher, especially for average altitude, and less steep

Gamoniteiru went at 1710 for 49 minutes the day after madness ont he Covadonga at the end of a 175km multi mountain stage that was kinda pedalled softly. And i think it must be said Gamoniteiru was paced less than aggressively

Still, 48-49 minutes is not an hour plus no gravel there and Yates was alone most of the time. Not saying it was thermonuclear (by current standards) but very good for sure.

 

[Red Rick]

Still, 48-49 minutes is not an hour plus no gravel there and Yates was alone most of the time. Not saying it was thermonuclear (by current standards) but very good for sure.

There's just no climbs that compare well sadly, so I would think it's perhaps best to extrapolate from climbs of lower duration .

On the other side, the fastest recent Ventoux was 1646 VAM and Col de la Loze 2020 was 1598 and holy *** I'm just listing Miguel Angel Lopez career highlights now.

Pacing in my view is the critical factor, becuase with the usual trend being to race more slowly on the first half and then do a negative split, combined with the gradual reduction in oxygen in the air leads me to believe doing a slightly positive split overall is better than even a completely flat pace in terms of watts. And I'm not even sure it's just altitude kicking in if slightly positive is better because fatigue will set in and *** you a bit even if you hold something back. But maybe that's more of a sprinting thing.

 

[Ripper]

Pretty much. Yates was great but not paradigm shattering or anything. I don't get the obsession with the Finestre record. It's a climb that's very rare, and that's never paced aggressively enough, etcetc. All things considered, 2 minutes 47s faster than Rujano in 2011 is anything but crazy.

Really though, it's not just UAE not chasing, it starts with UAE deciding Del Toro should just blow himself up trying to follow Carapaz.

Truly is starts with UAE not figuring out how to use their mountain doms over the entire final week or two. They were all way to far up the GC, which means they were accumulating far too much fatigue being up there at the end of mountain stages when they did not need to be, and creates some tactical challenges if you want to send them up the road

 

[topcat]

Are we saying Yates' performance isn't questionable because it's not quite as good as Pog and Vingo's performances?
To be clear, I'm not saying that.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Pacing in my view is the critical factor, becuase with the usual trend being to race more slowly on the first half and then do a negative split, combined with the gradual reduction in oxygen in the air leads me to believe doing a slightly positive split overall is better than even a completely flat pace in terms of watts. And I'm not even sure it's just altitude kicking in if slightly positive is better because fatigue will set in and *** you a bit even if you hold something back. But maybe that's more of a sprinting thing.

Pacing is critical of course and Yates paced himself very well. Positive split (in terms of watts) should naturally happen because of higher elevation (1700 meters of elevation gain noticeably decreases oxygen amount, so your threshold decreases by like 5%-10%). OTOH slightly negative split (expressed in % of your currently available FTP) is also very good to make sure you have enough power to the end.

 

[Red Rick]

Extrapolating from Gee's strava and the point they turn on to gravel, which Gee did 53 seconds later - and assuming they started at around the same time - I get a time of 31'54 for Yates on the tarmac section for a VAM of 1833 on the asphalted section - which is a higher VAM than his Alpe di Mera record from 2021 which was 28 minutes at 1820 for a W/kg of 6.5 estimated, but it must be said this was at 9.05 rather than 9.9. Gravel section would then be a 1620 VAM, which is a lot lower but it's also less steep on average.

The strava sections don't quite add up though, and we always gotta take them with a pinch of salt though.

Also interesting, Gee was slower on the gravel than the 2015 GC group minus Contador.

 

[Netserk]

The first 4 all did too much of a positive split, but Shates had the legs to tolerate it.

 

[Red Rick]

The first 4 all did too much of a positive split, but Shates had the legs to tolerate it.

The best way to do it.

 

[Froome]

VAM of 1710 during 60 min, on finestre where some of the road is gravel plus the altitude, is a really great perfomance.

We are talking about simon yates, not about the top riders of the Tour de France.

It also tells a lot how things will happen in the Tour, since Yates will be the fourth guy in the train.

 

[Red Rick]

VAM of 1710 during 60 min, on finestre where some of the road is gravel plus the altitude, is a really great perfomance.

We are talking about simon yates, not about the top riders of the Tour de France.

It also tells a lot how things will happen in the Tour, since Yates will be the fourth guy in the train.

Context here is not "where did Simon Yates finish in the TdF last year" but that he's inconsistent, but has very high peaks and he's also one of the best flat track FTP/kg bullies outside the traditional foul four on his best day. He's one of the few riders I might put up there with Evenepoel or Roglic on an unipuerto mountain stage.

Also - altitude also means the base of the climb is at 400m, so the large section at steep gradients and low altitude drives up the VAM by a considerable amount.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Extrapolating from Gee's strava and the point they turn on to gravel, which Gee did 53 seconds later - and assuming they started at around the same time - I get a time of 31'54 for Yates on the tarmac section for a VAM of 1833 on the asphalted section - which is a higher VAM than his Alpe di Mera record from 2021 which was 28 minutes at 1820 for a W/kg of 6.5 estimated, but it must be said this was at 9.05 rather than 9.9. Gravel section would then be a 1620 VAM, which is a lot lower but it's also less steep on average.

The strava sections don't quite add up though, and we always gotta take them with a pinch of salt though.

Also interesting, Gee was slower on the gravel than the 2015 GC group minus Contador.

1833 is a really big number, super fast considering that it's only the first half of a monster. 1833 vs 1620 is a big difference but an important part of it must be gravel + higher elevation. Undoubtedly positive split though, first half was insane.

 

[Red Rick]

1833 is a really big number, super fast considering that it's only the first half of a monster. 1833 vs 1620 is a big difference but an important part of it must be gravel + higher elevation. Undoubtedly positive split though, first half was insane.

Why won't noone think of higher elevation meaning less air resistance, so that cancels itself out for a very small part.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Why won't noone think of higher elevation meaning less air resistance, so that cancels itself out for a very small part.

Good point! I will say it to myself when gasping for air during high-altitude treks.