Team Visma LAB

[kamaveli]

I thought he had deleted it. So happy I found it. The point isn't the podcast about Fuglsang, but the pinned comment to this podcast video. I will hide it under spoiler tags

Spoiler: The podcast

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbRXXTHiFUk

Below the link he recommended;

Spoiler: "mandatory for people watching endurance sports in the future"ts

Nordic Nation: Estonia’s Karel Tammjärv

Podcast Episode · Nordic Nation · 06/03/2019 · 1h 5m

podcasts.apple.com

It's just so interesting to see someone going from having had the basic clinic take of "they all dope" to now having to be on the inside the omerta.

I don't think he is allowed to know anything about any clinic related stuff in Visma. He probably hears some rumours and you can still sometimes catch some scepticism in his podcast. Like when he said recently that he can only say about Bardet that he was 100% clean (can't say that about any other rider) etc.
It's understandable that he has toned it down especially now that he is employeed by one of the most certain offenders and he would definately lose his dream job if he were to continue digging the truth about doping. So in a way he's part of the omerta, but not nearly the worst offender.

 

[noob]

I don't think he is allowed to know anything about any clinic related stuff in Visma. He probably hears some rumours and you can still sometimes catch some scepticism in his podcast. Like when he said recently that he can only say about Bardet that he was 100% clean (can't say that about any other rider) etc.
It's understandable that he has toned it down especially now that he is employeed by one of the most certain offenders and he would definately lose his dream job if he were to continue digging the truth about doping. So in a way he's part of the omerta, but not nearly the worst offender.

Agreed on all. I'm impressed he hasn't deleted it though. Adds credibility with me.

I loved that he singled out Bardet like that. I remember it well 😻

 

[burning]

Kuss and Yates are getting dropped by half of the riders in the break, I am actually really curious what happened during their prep and why they actually lost multiple steps compared to 2022 and 2023.

 

[AmRacer]

Kuss and Yates are getting dropped by half of the riders in the break, I am actually really curious what happened during their prep and why they are actually lost multiple steps compared to 2022 and 2023.

Jonas will attack and getting help from them?

 

[burning]

Jonas will attack and getting help from them?

I cannot imagine this, they are basically not at the required level to even try

 

[zlev11]

Kuss and Yates are getting dropped by half of the riders in the break, I am actually really curious what happened during their prep and why they actually lost multiple steps compared to 2022 and 2023.

CO rebreathing banned

 

[kingjr]

Kuss and Yates are getting dropped by half of the riders in the break, I am actually really curious what happened during their prep and why they actually lost multiple steps compared to 2022 and 2023.

I seem to remember Yates winning the Giro, but I'm fuzzy on that.

 

[burning]

I seem to remember Yates winning the Giro, but I'm fuzzy on that.

Well, that was against UAE's 4th (?) best rider and it also took a massive failure from them. UAE has 6-7 WT wins from non-Pogacar riders this year, and Visma probably has 3 total right now.

 

[kingjr]

Well, that was against UAE's 4th (?) best rider and it also took a massive failure from them. UAE has 6-7 WT wins from non-Pogacar riders this year, and Visma probably has 3 total right now.

And a massive performance from Yates on Finestre. And I think del Toro is closer to shared 2nd best with Almeida.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Kuss and Yates are getting dropped by half of the riders in the break, I am actually really curious what happened during their prep and why they actually lost multiple steps compared to 2022 and 2023.

But freaking Campenaerts somehow learned how to climb...

 

[Ripper]

Well, that was against UAE's 4th (?) best rider and it also took a massive failure from them. UAE has 6-7 WT wins from non-Pogacar riders this year, and Visma probably has 3 total right now.

I would say Yates' performance is about on track with his targets and trying an extended peak to help in the TdF. He is going to be inconsistent.

Perhaps they've had a wee illness go through the ranks. Gosh knows Wout seems to get sick all the time now

 

[nightowl]

Did Visma lose the juice recipe for this tour or something? Really weird how bad they’ve been.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Did Visma lose the juice recipe for this tour or something? Really weird how bad they’ve been.

No matter how good your juice is, you can still mess up preparation and training.

Kuss has been a shadow of his old self since the 3 GT season, Wout and Yates rode the Giro, Vingegaard changed stuff in his training afaik, and Jorgonson already was a bit underwhelming in the Dauphiné. The rest seems to do just fine.
They also really invested a lot in the first two weeks.. So I'm only a bit puzzled by Jorgenson, but he already showed weakness in the Dauphiné.

 

[repoman]

Have any people on the Visma staff been implicated in doping scandals/cases in the past like with UAE/Ineos?

 

[zlev11]

No matter how good your juice is, you can still mess up preparation and training.

Kuss has been a shadow of his old self since the 3 GT season, Wout and Yates rode the Giro, Vingegaard changed stuff in his training afaik, and Jorgonson already was a bit underwhelming in the Dauphiné. The rest seems to do just fine.
They also really invested a lot in the first two weeks.. So I'm only a bit puzzled by Jorgenson, but he already showed weakness in the Dauphiné.

yeah but they literally messed up no preparation or training for the past 3 tours before this. they had every single one of their riders on peak form at the Tour. this year they have nobody on peak form. i think they were big on the CO rebreathing and now they can't do it anymore.

 

[how yes no?]

Have any people on the Visma staff been implicated in doping scandals/cases in the past like with UAE/Ineos?

Grischa Niermann (admitted to using epo 2000-2003) would be the first one to jump out of the box.

Let's ignore Hessmann actually failed doping test in 2023 I guess, because that's recent, not past. (also do we really believe that was team program even if possibly intentional by the rider? sounds too easy to get caught considering none of the others got caught for that in recent time)

 

[Fantastico]

No matter how good your juice is, you can still mess up preparation and training.

Kuss has been a shadow of his old self since the 3 GT season, Wout and Yates rode the Giro, Vingegaard changed stuff in his training afaik, and Jorgonson already was a bit underwhelming in the Dauphiné. The rest seems to do just fine.
They also really invested a lot in the first two weeks.. So I'm only a bit puzzled by Jorgenson, but he already showed weakness in the Dauphiné.

On the other hand, Campenaerts is climbing better than ever (at least as far as I remember).

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

yeah but they literally messed up no preparation or training for the past 3 tours before this. they had every single one of their riders on peak form at the Tour. this year they have nobody on peak form. i think they were big on the CO rebreathing and now they can't do it anymore.

On the other hand, Campenaerts is climbing better than ever (at least as far as I remember).

Both true. But I doubt they are using a carbon copy of what they did the last time every time. All teams try to get better and develop their riders further. Also they knew Jonas would have to step up a bit to be able to beat Pogacar. So I don't think it's impossible something went wrong there. It's also not that Vingegaard is wildly worse than last year and Pogacar hasn't shown something like last year yet either (arguably). On top of that we can't just assume linear progression, even if everything stays the same. So I am not so sure if any of the sauce is at fault or other factors. Which is not to say that I know it's other factors of course, I just think one should not discard them easily.

As for Campenaerts: as I said he seems to be doing just fine. The climbing might still be explainable by him changing to breakaways and now GC support. I guess he just trains differently and has different goals for training than he used to have. So the change might have nothing to do with doping, it's not that he wasn't a strong rider before.

To be clear: I don't think what is currently going on is explainable without doping, I am jut very sceptical that all we see, every change there is, every developement of new or different qualities has to be related to doping when there are plenty of other factors that play a role, with or without it.

 

[AmRacer]

Both true. But I doubt they are using a carbon copy of what they did the last time every time. All teams try to get better and develop their riders further. Also they knew Jonas would have to step up a bit to be able to beat Pogacar. So I don't think it's impossible something went wrong there. It's also not that Vingegaard is wildly worse than last year and Pogacar hasn't shown something like last year yet either (arguably). On top of that we can't just assume linear progression, even if everything stays the same. So I am not so sure if any of the sauce is at fault or other factors. Which is not to say that I know it's other factors of course, I just think one should not discard them easily.

As for Campenaerts: as I said he seems to be doing just fine. The climbing might still be explainable by him changing to breakaways and now GC support. I guess he just trains differently and has different goals for training than he used to have. So the change might have nothing to do with doping, it's not that he wasn't a strong rider before.

To be clear: I don't think what is currently going on is explainable without doping, I am jut very sceptical that all we see, every change their is, every developement of new or different qualities has to be related to doping when there are plenty of other factors that play a role, with or without it.

And riders have to abandon their careers early with all kinds of illnesses.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Looks like the whole team lost access to something or chose to stop using something, maybe they got told to tone it down, maybe is budget, maybe after van hojdonck they decided not to get so risky. Or maybe it's just the carbon monoxide being so vital to their performance. Who knows. But Jonas in 2022-23 looked invincible in the hot, hard mountain stages , that combloux ITT was unprecedented even in the most doped eras, and now he's riding around at lipovitz, Oscar olney level. Sep kuss, jorgensen, Benoot, van aert all got so much worse

Yates giro win was one good day against a 20 year old and carapaz who wouldn't help each other. Other than that he hasn't been spectacular.

Away from the tour the likes of Vallter and uijtedbrockes continue to go backwards. So do keldermen, kruijsvik, van baarle.

They used to ride around mocking the peloton, they had Laporte roglic and van aert drop a whole peloton on a Paris nice hill, they could let their domestique win la vuelta because they were so much better than every other team at the race. They had van hojdonck controlling mountain stages.


Now they are a shadow of that team

 

[AmRacer]

Looks like the whole team lost access to something or chose to stop using something, maybe they got told to tone it down, maybe is budget, maybe after van hojdonck they decided not to get so risky. Or maybe it's just the carbon monoxide being so vital to their performance. Who knows. But Jonas in 2022-23 looked invincible in the hot, hard mountain stages , that combloux ITT was unprecedented even in the most doped eras, and now he's riding around at lipovitz, Oscar olney level. Sep kuss, jorgensen, Benoot, van aert all got so much worse

Yates giro win was one good day against a 20 year old and carapaz who wouldn't help each other. Other than that he hasn't been spectacular.

Away from the tour the likes of Vallter and uijtedbrockes continue to go backwards. So do keldermen, kruijsvik, van baarle.

They used to ride around mocking the peloton, they had Laporte roglic and van aert drop a whole peloton on a Paris nice hill, they could let their domestique win la vuelta because they were so much better than every other team at the race. They had van hojdonck controlling mountain stages.


Now they are a shadow of that team

Laporte?

 

[zlev11]

Looks like the whole team lost access to something or chose to stop using something, maybe they got told to tone it down, maybe is budget, maybe after van hojdonck they decided not to get so risky. Or maybe it's just the carbon monoxide being so vital to their performance. Who knows. But Jonas in 2022-23 looked invincible in the hot, hard mountain stages , that combloux ITT was unprecedented even in the most doped eras, and now he's riding around at lipovitz, Oscar olney level. Sep kuss, jorgensen, Benoot, van aert all got so much worse

Yates giro win was one good day against a 20 year old and carapaz who wouldn't help each other. Other than that he hasn't been spectacular.

Away from the tour the likes of Vallter and uijtedbrockes continue to go backwards. So do keldermen, kruijsvik, van baarle.

They used to ride around mocking the peloton, they had Laporte roglic and van aert drop a whole peloton on a Paris nice hill, they could let their domestique win la vuelta because they were so much better than every other team at the race. They had van hojdonck controlling mountain stages.


Now they are a shadow of that team

i wonder if the Yates Giro ride was CO enhanced, it was the best climb he's ever done in his career. maybe there's still something big coming from Vingegaard in this Tour? but i think a lot of it is just that Pogacar is so much better than he was in '22-23.

 

[masking_agent]

Looks like the whole team lost access to something or chose to stop using something, maybe they got told to tone it down, maybe is budget, maybe after van hojdonck they decided not to get so risky. Or maybe it's just the carbon monoxide being so vital to their performance. Who knows. But Jonas in 2022-23 looked invincible in the hot, hard mountain stages , that combloux ITT was unprecedented even in the most doped eras, and now he's riding around at lipovitz, Oscar olney level. Sep kuss, jorgensen, Benoot, van aert all got so much worse

Yates giro win was one good day against a 20 year old and carapaz who wouldn't help each other. Other than that he hasn't been spectacular.

Away from the tour the likes of Vallter and uijtedbrockes continue to go backwards. So do keldermen, kruijsvik, van baarle.

They used to ride around mocking the peloton, they had Laporte roglic and van aert drop a whole peloton on a Paris nice hill, they could let their domestique win la vuelta because they were so much better than every other team at the race. They had van hojdonck controlling mountain stages.


Now they are a shadow of that team

I tend to agree with the team losing access to some PED, through doctors orders. I really am disappointed in Kuss.

 

[Revelation]

Blood bags were in full use on the rest day.

 

[Red Rick]

Pretty mid.

UAE clearly taking the day off preparing for the Alps. I think it's heavily about timing your spikes in megadoses these days and while the Mont Ventoux is the Mont Ventoux, it is still an unipuerto day.