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I think the implication Vingegaard is on a program opens a giant can of worms & would make this current TdF much, much worse than it already is.

Jumbo should have danced with the one who brought them here, aka Roglic. I totally get teams creating their own GC hopeful & backing him in this cutthroat bizarre sport filled with hypocrites & liars, but when you already have one... you don't create another. Not in the same GT either. Especially if it's under false pretences like "we're going to 2 prong attack Pog... oops, not really, you're done Rogla". This really would be like Wiggins in 2012 but way worse because of Roglic' standing in the sport. And lol @ Jumbo for the bonding they pushed between Vingegaard & Roglic before this TdF if their intent was to make the latter become super-domestique for their new toy.

Anyway, all hypothetical of course but yeah, I can only shrug now with regards to this TdF & Jumbo's behavior in it.
 
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Not that I in any way think Vingegaard is any cleaner than his competitors, but it's worth noting that he crashed in the 2018 Giro della Valle d'Aosta, as Mayomaniac said, and in the 2017 Tour des Fjords in Norway, the crash that led to him taking that fish factory job, and in the 2019 Tour of Norway.

The first two kept him from ever being a leader in the Tour de l'Avenir and also from achieving other decent U23 results, and the last one hampered him from delivering during the two months until the Tour de Pologne, where he won a stage and possibly could have won the race, if he hadn't been too anxious to sleep after his win. He had finished 12th on the Eibar stage in Itzulia before that as well.

He was also still affected by injury after the 2019 season, but the fact that most of the 2020 season was postponed helped him to regain form before it mattered.
 
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Broken femur in that crash in may 2017 and didn't race again that year. He had good results in the first half of 2018 like in the Priessnitz Spa nations cup, already one place after Pogacar on one stage. Fifth overall there with Hirschi, Pogacar, Battistella in front, Gall and Paret-Peintre just after. He was part of the elite that year when he was in good condition. That's why Jumbo signed him, shrug. He crashed out of Valle d'Aosta, as mentioned above, got a concussion and Avenir was just to prepare the world's where he had a puncture or something, I forget, in a difficult moment.

No junior results yeah, for sure, cause he's not from a country with a rich federation that can send riders all over Europe and the world for races and he didn't race for any of the organized junior teams. He was still riding in a small time club until half way through his second year u23 with Sibiu as his first international start.

See I'm biased so there's that but the above is how to objectively describe Vingegaard's results before turning professional as opposed to some 'only 67th in avenir' construction.
 
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Broken femur in that crash in may 2017 and didn't race again that year. He had good results in the first half of 2018 like in the Priessnitz Spa nations cup, already one place after Pogacar on one stage. Fifth overall there with Hirschi, Pogacar, Battistella in front, Gall and Paret-Peintre just after. He was part of the elite that year when he was in good condition. That's why Jumbo signed him, shrug. He crashed out of Valle d'Aosta, as mentioned above, got a concussion and Avenir was just to prepare the world's where he had a puncture or something, I forget, in a difficult moment.

No junior results yeah, for sure, cause he's not from a country with a rich federation that can send riders all over Europe and the world for races and he didn't race for any of the organized junior teams. He was still riding in a small time club until half way through his second year u23 with Sibiu as his first international start.

See I'm biased so there's that but the above is how to objectively describe Vingegaard's results before turning professional as opposed to some 'only 67th in avenir' construction.

Priessnitz Spa nations cup, already one place after Pogacar on one stage

I am glad you admit you are biased but one stage? LOL.

Pogacar has much, much, much better results than Vingegaard and he is nearly two years younger. Not even close. Suddenly Vingegaard virtually appears out of nowhere in 2021 to get 2nd on GC at the biggest race in the sport and we are supposed to be convinced the only reason we didn't see this coming was because he broke his femur and wasn't given the opportunity? I'm not buying anything that Vingo or Jumbo is selling.

Any casual glance of the differing records of both riders is stark. Pogacar's is littered with wins and top placings stretching back to 2016 as an 18 year old. Vingo's first stage race win was 2021 Settimana Internazionale di Coppi e Bartali.

The race I think Pogi announced himself was the 2019 ToC which he won whilst still only 20. Meanwhile, Vingo had one obscure stage race win prior to the 2021 TdF. I think there is a curious lack of skepticism over Mr Vingegaard. He deserves equal if not more skepticism than Pogacar.
 
I am glad you admit you are biased but one stage? LOL.

Pogacar has much, much, much better results than Vingegaard and he is nearly two years younger. Not even close. Suddenly Vingegaard virtually appears out of nowhere in 2021 to get 2nd on GC at the biggest race in the sport and we are supposed to be convinced the only reason we didn't see this coming was because he broke his femur and wasn't given the opportunity? I'm not buying anything that Vingo or Jumbo is selling.

Any casual glance of the differing records of both riders is stark. Pogacar's is littered with wins and top placings stretching back to 2016 as an 18 year old. Vingo's first stage race win was 2021 Settimana Internazionale di Coppi e Bartali.

The race I think Pogi announced himself was the 2019 ToC which he won whilst still only 20. Meanwhile, Vingo had one obscure stage race win prior to the 2021 TdF. I think there is a curious lack of skepticism over Mr Vingegaard. He deserves equal if not more skepticism than Pogacar.
I am definitely biased but how about calling 2021 TdF a weakened field after Roglic and several other GC contenders crashed out? Jonas was after all 5 minutes behind Pog.
 
Shrug, read carefully, he was fifth overall in that nations cup race, in one of the stages he finished one place behind Pogacar. It was just a fun fact. Not everyone has the same chances to do big races. This is basic stuff. Look at the stats and see if there's any races he could have done well in and did not. He rarely had the opportunity to start in races with mountains as u23 so there's not a super long list of results.
 
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Yep.

Bit of a Rasmussen, isn't he. If we are judging on the basis of sudden improvement then he has done more of a 'Froome' that Froome did himself. Bit surprised Vingegaard doesn't have his own thread.
Does match Froome in his very unspecial junior results, yes. But so far has to win multiple GTs. And also hadn’t a “world beater in less than a month” transformation. So Froome still did the better Froome imo.
 
Shrug, read carefully, he was fifth overall in that nations cup race, in one of the stages he finished one place behind Pogacar. It was just a fun fact. Not everyone has the same chances to do big races. This is basic stuff. Look at the stats and see if there's any races he could have done well in and did not. He rarely had the opportunity to start in races with mountains as u23 so there's not a super long list of results.
We are talking about 2nd on GC at the biggest race in the sport after achieving very little.

I checked Vingo's record before I posted - unless Wiki is inaccurate? For example, Cadel Evans had a far better record before he even turned to the road and yet even Cadel gets a thread here. Where is Vingo's thread?

And since this is the Jumbo thread I wonder if it is a coincidence that when Roglic is out injured that Vingegaard was elevated to the fully "supported" rider and perhaps this explains the transformation? IMO Vingegaard's transformation in 2021 TdF is every bit as astonishing as Froome's transformation at the 2011 Vuelta. Don't forget when he briefly distanced Pogi on Ventoux.

Well we won't have long to wait but I am confident Pogacar will put Vingo back in his box this TdF unless Covid intervenes. Whatever we have seen from Pogacar before the only way he isn't better this year (other than UCI hawks) is Covid. I hope we are not robbed.
 
Not that I in any way think Vingegaard is any cleaner than his competitors, but it's worth noting that he crashed in the 2018 Giro della Valle d'Aosta, as Mayomaniac said, and in the 2017 Tour des Fjords in Norway, the crash that led to him taking that fish factory job, and in the 2019 Tour of Norway.

The first two kept him from ever being a leader in the Tour de l'Avenir and also from achieving other decent U23 results, and the last one hampered him from delivering during the two months until the Tour de Pologne, where he won a stage and possibly could have won the race, if he hadn't been too anxious to sleep after his win. He had finished 12th on the Eibar stage in Itzulia before that as well.

He was also still affected by injury after the 2019 season, but the fact that most of the 2020 season was postponed helped him to regain form before it mattered.
Good insight.
 
I am glad you admit you are biased but one stage? LOL.

Pogacar has much, much, much better results than Vingegaard and he is nearly two years younger. Not even close. Suddenly Vingegaard virtually appears out of nowhere in 2021 to get 2nd on GC at the biggest race in the sport and we are supposed to be convinced the only reason we didn't see this coming was because he broke his femur and wasn't given the opportunity? I'm not buying anything that Vingo or Jumbo is selling.

Any casual glance of the differing records of both riders is stark. Pogacar's is littered with wins and top placings stretching back to 2016 as an 18 year old. Vingo's first stage race win was 2021 Settimana Internazionale di Coppi e Bartali.

The race I think Pogi announced himself was the 2019 ToC which he won whilst still only 20. Meanwhile, Vingo had one obscure stage race win prior to the 2021 TdF. I think there is a curious lack of skepticism over Mr Vingegaard. He deserves equal if not more skepticism than Pogacar.
Nice post, some additional notes here

Pogi announced himself first by finishing 5th overall at the Tour of Slovenia in 2017 at 18.

The following year he was 4th overall, beating guys like Majka and Hindley, and within 30 seconds of prime Mohoric and Uran.

2 months later he won Tour de L'Avenir at only 19.

The following year before he won California he won the 2019 Volta ao Algarve, announcing himself on the world tour.

Given how good Pogacat was since he turned pro, you would expect him to dominate the u23s like Remco dominated the juniors. So he definitely had a transformation. But he also definitely showed an extreme amount of talent.

By contrast, Vingegaard never managed to finish in the top 10 of his national u23 ITT champs, and now is the strongest GC rider in a TDF ITT after 3 weeks.
 
I am glad you admit you are biased but one stage? LOL.

Pogacar has much, much, much better results than Vingegaard and he is nearly two years younger. Not even close. Suddenly Vingegaard virtually appears out of nowhere in 2021 to get 2nd on GC at the biggest race in the sport and we are supposed to be convinced the only reason we didn't see this coming was because he broke his femur and wasn't given the opportunity? I'm not buying anything that Vingo or Jumbo is selling.

Any casual glance of the differing records of both riders is stark. Pogacar's is littered with wins and top placings stretching back to 2016 as an 18 year old. Vingo's first stage race win was 2021 Settimana Internazionale di Coppi e Bartali.

The race I think Pogi announced himself was the 2019 ToC which he won whilst still only 20. Meanwhile, Vingo had one obscure stage race win prior to the 2021 TdF. I think there is a curious lack of skepticism over Mr Vingegaard. He deserves equal if not more skepticism than Pogacar.

Riders develop at different speeds though. That isn't something new. In some cases it's due to injury, in others it's something else. There are also a lot of examples of top junior/U23 riders who never made it anywhere, though that isn't always (only) related to a lack of talent.

But hopefully you'll agree that it's hard to produce results while injured. Again I'm not really defending Vingegaard, I'm only pointing out that there might be some explanations to why he didn't have a ton of great results prior to the 2021 season. From what I knew, it sounded like it could be possible for him to reach a very high level at some point if everything worked out, but I never expected it to happen in 2021 already.

Pogačar is not really a fair rider to compare most riders with either, cause there aren't many who have had a palmares equal to his, although someone still claimed recently that his junior results weren't good enough for him to ever reach his current level. Not that I think your position is as ridiculous as that one.
 
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By contrast, Vingegaard never managed to finish in the top 10 of his national u23 ITT champs, and now is the strongest GC rider in a TDF ITT after 3 weeks.

There are riders who are better at ITTs in stage races rather than in stand alone ones though. Not that I think his ITTs aren't affected by clinical reasons, but I also assume he's done a lot more specific training after joining JV.
 
Riders develop at different speeds though. That isn't something new. In some cases it's due to injury, in others it's something else. There are also a lot of examples of top junior/U23 riders who never made it anywhere, though that isn't always (only) related to a lack of talent.

But hopefully you'll agree that it's hard to produce results while injured. Again I'm not really defending Vingegaard, I'm only pointing out that there might be some explanations to why he didn't have a ton of great results prior to the 2021 season. From what I knew, it sounded like it could be possible for him to reach a very high level at some point if everything worked out, but I never expected it to happen in 2021 already.

Pogačar is not really a fair rider to compare most riders with either, cause there aren't many who have had a palmares equal to his, although someone still claimed recently that his junior results weren't good enough for him to ever reach his current level. Not that I think your position is as ridiculous as that one.
Thanks, I don't really disagree with you its just he really does seem to have arrived out of nowhere in 2021 and I am simply sceptical of the injury explanation. Likely I wouldn't bother commenting on him if he had not claimed he could beat Pogacar at the Dauphine. That really raised my eyebrows.

Plus of course having followed the sport quite closely since 1992 I think I've seen plenty and this has red flags a plenty.
 
Nice post, some additional notes here

Pogi announced himself first by finishing 5th overall at the Tour of Slovenia in 2017 at 18.

The following year he was 4th overall, beating guys like Majka and Hindley, and within 30 seconds of prime Mohoric and Uran.

2 months later he won Tour de L'Avenir at only 19.

The following year before he won California he won the 2019 Volta ao Algarve, announcing himself on the world tour.

Given how good Pogacat was since he turned pro, you would expect him to dominate the u23s like Remco dominated the juniors. So he definitely had a transformation. But he also definitely showed an extreme amount of talent.

By contrast, Vingegaard never managed to finish in the top 10 of his national u23 ITT champs, and now is the strongest GC rider in a TDF ITT after 3 weeks.

Pogacar has always been a very small kiddo. Its possible that his physical development ended when he was 19 20 yo, which can partially explain his progress then. Its really not shocking at this age, its more weird at a later age. Good Doping program is another part of the equation but who of these top guys isnt on such?
 
I don't see the development of Pogacar or Vingegaard as very conclusive or decisive. Sure, it's an aspect to consider that both showed decent talent, but weren't any world beaters, but the crazyness of Pogacar is that he can do it all, all year long, on always exactly the day when it counts for him, and the absolute domination in a sport that has a broad doping history.
Vingegaard would be more believable if he wasn't at Jumbo, where a Laporte becomes a semi-god, van Aert Mars, etc., as well.

I find both unbelievable in their own way. Overall it looks to me like we are in a time where many teams or riders are doping unhinged. Maybe it was never any better. I don't know.
 
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I am glad you admit you are biased but one stage? LOL.

Pogacar has much, much, much better results than Vingegaard and he is nearly two years younger. Not even close. Suddenly Vingegaard virtually appears out of nowhere in 2021 to get 2nd on GC at the biggest race in the sport and we are supposed to be convinced the only reason we didn't see this coming was because he broke his femur and wasn't given the opportunity? I'm not buying anything that Vingo or Jumbo is selling.

Any casual glance of the differing records of both riders is stark. Pogacar's is littered with wins and top placings stretching back to 2016 as an 18 year old. Vingo's first stage race win was 2021 Settimana Internazionale di Coppi e Bartali.

The race I think Pogi announced himself was the 2019 ToC which he won whilst still only 20. Meanwhile, Vingo had one obscure stage race win prior to the 2021 TdF. I think there is a curious lack of skepticism over Mr Vingegaard. He deserves equal if not more skepticism than Pogacar.
Personality wise i find it way harder to believe Vingegaard is on the juice than Pogacar. He just has this innoncence about him.
But Yeah, like we already know, that can be deceiving. Not all dopers are outgoing dominant winner types like Armstrong or even Van Aert at Jumbo