Tell me who are the real bad guys?

[Big Daddy]

Is it the UCI (McQuid and Verbruggen) or is it the dopers Armstrong, Contador?

Personally I believe its the UCI

In no particular order, the real scumbags of cycling are:
Lance Armstrong
Johan Bruyneel
Michele Ferrari
Pat McQuaid
Hein Verbruggen
and of course, the many Armstrong backers and handlers

 

[Maxiton]

UCI > Enforcers (think Bruyneel, Saiz) > Rock-Star Enablers (Ferrari) > Dopers > Enablers (regular team doctors) > Complicit Journalists > Complicit Fans

I pretty much agree with this. As far as whole nations and national governments go, they are definitely part of the picture, too, just as are huge corporations and even whole industries. But governments and corporations tend to be more risk averse than individuals are, especially with regard to their public image; so their involvement involvement with cheating would wane if there was very much risk to them.

 

[arjanh]

Could you help me out and tell me where the Government of Spain / Nation of Spain fits into your theorem? They could be enablers, but they seem like enablers on a much bigger scale than even rock star enablers.

After all, Lance's move from Nice to Girona was due to, as Tyler says in his book, the Spanish po-po turning a blind eye.

Right next to UCI. UCI is an enabler on a global scale, the Spanish obviously on a national scale. If anti-doping policies were imposed by the international bodies, but the Spanish don't enforce them, Spain is still doper's heaven.

 

[aphronesis]

Is it the UCI (McQuid and Verbruggen) or is it the dopers Armstrong, Contador?

Personally I believe its the UCI

How about the people who believe that marginal, yet zealous, interest and financial support is sufficient for them to dictate the terms by which others should carry on their professional careers? Where else is that kind of oversight operative.?

 

[thegrimpeur]

I think I'd vote for Francesco Conconi, who first made a name "preparing" Francesco Moser to the hour record in 84: Was hired by IOC in 1990 to make a fool-proof drug test for EPO, invested that money in the research necessary to make a fool-proof EPO mixture, and then made a fortune making sure just about the entire peloton was doped beyond all limits in the nineties. All the while lying about it to the IOC and UCI, saying that he was almost there, and that he just needed a little more money, thus making sure he was getting a steady income from the top of the sport, too. Meanwhile, no-one else got to have a go at it, and there were many more qualified scientists available, and they didn't get an EPO test until 2000... And obviously, finishing it all off, he was found "morally guilty" by an italian judge in 2004, however he couldn't get a sentence because the case was to old, meaning he is now a rich, retired doctor. And you can't forget his students Cecchini and Ferrari...

So there you have it: Inept leadership to the extreme and one evil doctor can really screw a sport up. I think we are just now getting back to the level pre-EPO, when guys would still cheat, but it was still possible to win the tour clean.

 

[skidmark]

...The Past.

 

[wagman67]

It's good to know we can sit and judge anonymously from the sidelines. Let's keep patting our backs about it.

I have stated before that if that was the culture at the time, it was the culture. That doesn't make it right, but it does make it what it was. Only time will tell what the culture of today is...and what those a decade from now will think of it.

It is in the past...we all have tainted heroes (I am an American that now has a lot of tainted heroes...the biggest of which is George Hincapie). Choose new heroes and see if they stand the test of the future.

Let's move on...you can only kill a horse so much.

 

[MellowJohnny]

This may in it self warrant a separate thread but I was wondering how Armstrong's now no place in cycling and I turned the whole thing around and thought maybe its McQuid and Hein V that should have no place?

My username will suggest I'm a big LA fan, I'm not (or wasn't particularly) but I will say it was he the guy who got me into cycling, not Cavendish, Millar, Wiggins et al.

I do not hold LA in the same regard as I once used to, I always got the impression he was driven to the point of bullying, the whole Vande Velde/Zabriske statement and the Simeoni espisode of 04 confirmed that.

But I do believe there is something much much more worse going on behind the UCI

 

[D-Queued]

I vote for all the (professional) trolls and sockpuppets who have done their best to obstruct justice.

Dave.

 

[Cimacoppi49]

Is it the UCI (McQuid and Verbruggen) or is it the dopers Armstrong, Contador?

Personally I believe its the UCI

Anyone who made money directly or indirectly from doping who knew or should have had reason to know about the doping is responsible in greater or lesser degree. That includes every Trek dealer who did nothing when Trek/Armstrong attacked Lemond for raising the doping issue. The owners and/or intersted stakeholders of Mellow Johnny's too.

 

[Turner29]

has anyone mention team owners/investors? Just like the ASO and other major organizers, if they wanted a clean sport, they could have one.

 

[Turner29]

In no particular order, the real scumbags of cycling are:
Lance Armstrong
Johan Bruyneel
Michele Ferrari
Pat McQuaid
Hein Verbruggen
and of course, the many Armstrong backers and handlers

Add Bill Stapleton to the list.

PS missed "backer and handlers"

 

[silverrocket]

Could you help me out and tell me where the Government of Spain / Nation of Spain fits into your theorem? They could be enablers, but they seem like enablers on a much bigger scale than even rock star enablers.

After all, Lance's move from Nice to Girona was due to, as Tyler says in his book, the Spanish po-po turning a blind eye.

I agree that there are national "variations" that do mean they fit in different places along that "continuum of blame", but Spain is far from alone. There are many nations that may value the prestige of sporting success higher than the methods used to achieve that success. Other nations place higher than typical cultural value on cultural heros, and so are more enabling of someone who, for example, beats cancer and then takes on the hardest race in the world.

National complicity is certainly partly to blame, but I think we should refrain from singling out specific nations.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

If doping leads to dollars, I would point the finger at the wealthiest entities in the chain - the drug companies.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I think I'd vote for Francesco Conconi, who first made a name "preparing" Francesco Moser to the hour record in 84: Was hired by IOC in 1990 to make a fool-proof drug test for EPO, invested that money in the research necessary to make a fool-proof EPO mixture, and then made a fortune making sure just about the entire peloton was doped beyond all limits in the nineties. All the while lying about it to the IOC and UCI, saying that he was almost there, and that he just needed a little more money, thus making sure he was getting a steady income from the top of the sport, too. Meanwhile, no-one else got to have a go at it, and there were many more qualified scientists available, and they didn't get an EPO test until 2000... And obviously, finishing it all off, he was found "morally guilty" by an italian judge in 2004, however he couldn't get a sentence because the case was to old, meaning he is now a rich, retired doctor. And you can't forget his students Cecchini and Ferrari...

So there you have it: Inept leadership to the extreme and one evil doctor can really screw a sport up. I think we are just now getting back to the level pre-EPO, when guys would still cheat, but it was still possible to win the tour clean.

This sets up an interesting precedent / pattern. Gotta love those patterns.

 

[Turner29]

If doping leads to dollars, I would point the finger at the wealthiest entities in the chain - the drug companies.

One must truly question the judgement of a sport that allows Amgen to sponsor a major race.

 

[Cyivel]

Scott Hall.