The Armstrong Detractor's Talking Points

[Maxiton]

Wait, Lance took his teammates to strip clubs or lap dance clubs or whatever they were? Those poor, poor lads. They must have been sitting in their rooms before hand, heads in hands, lamenting the terrible things they were about to see and think. I mean, is this really the problem, or is it that he didn't invite you?

And as for blow, so-called - I'm shocked, shocked, that they could do such a thing. In every big city in the world, and in many smaller ones, cocaine is the party drug of choice, and it has been for I don't know how long - maybe since the 1920s or 30s. (I seem to recall that Fausto Coppi was said to be quite fond of it - granted that didn't have a happy ending.) That doesn't mean you should be doing it, that doesn't mean it's good for you (and of course that doesn't mean it's exactly legal), but come on, few here can be that naive. If some of the boys wanted to party with cocaine, is that really your concern? It's not like they weren't entitled to a little grown up fun.

This morality police thing is unbecoming, a lame attempt to use anything and everything against the big, bad patron of the peloton. And it's pretty transparent.

PS. Kudos to the moderator for moderating.

 

[Iker_Baqueiro]

--edited by mod--

 

[Ferminal]

Thanks Polish, best laugh since reading Stapleton and JB yesterday.

 

[Race Radio]

[and others]

New posters can show up at any time they chose. Having read several of his posts, it actually sounds to me he very much wants to have that dialogue, but it's the regulars here who want to portray him as a paid shill, insinuate that he can't possible have those opinions and hold them honestly, etc.

The poster is free to post his opinion here. No-one is to be treated like a troll simply for having a different opinion that appears genuinely held. heck, they don't even have to be right to post here, as long as it is their genuine opinion, they, like you, are free to share it here, and engage in the debate.

If you suspect someone of being a troll, report them to us, we will look into it. Start to treat people like a troll and don't be surprised if that blows up in your face, when one of the mods deemed that the one doing that is the thread disruptor.

Anyone who thinks that mocking and ridiculing of posters is the way to behave here, especially against new posters who appear to have a valid, but different pov from the more common one here, will be treated as the real troll in that tussle, by me.

If you have the better arguments, make them. It's that simple.

Post opinions, counter on substance. Insinuating that someone must be paid for having his pov is a joke. Start the mocking and you will have me to deal with. I don't like trolling behaviour, no matter who it comes from.

Forum bullies even less.

Post not poster.

You want to see the quality of the debate raised? Start behaving like you can deal with different povs in a mature way.

We will look into someone's posts with tools and info you guys have no access to, if we feel we have cause to or when we get reports that give us reason to look closer. If new posters come here to troll, they won't stay around for long. Old trolls will expose themselves too. But we are making that call, not individual forum users who are, in the end, guessing, to various degrees.

I appreciate your Patience and even handedness Francois, however a new poster shows up a right away start going after several long time posters and spouting the same fairy tails. Please excuse me if I do not believe that he has returned for the 200th time

 

[D-Queued]

...

And as for blow, so-called - I'm shocked, shocked, that they could do such a thing. In every big city in the world, and in many smaller ones, cocaine is the party drug of choice, and it has been for I don't know how long - maybe since the 1920s or 30s. (I seem to recall that Fausto Coppi was said to be quite fond of it - granted that didn't have a happy ending.) That doesn't mean you should be doing it, that doesn't mean it's good for you (and of course that doesn't mean it's exactly legal), but come on, few here can be that naive. If some of the boys wanted to party with cocaine, is that really your concern? It's not like they weren't entitled to a little grown up fun.

...

Of course, there is another side to coke (there always is). Apparently it is helpful for soothing the 'roid crash. Tom Boonen may be able to provide some insight on this, given his extensive experience.

Oh, and another side effect of 'roid use (HINT: Add this to your list Polish):

- enlarged heart resulting from a history of anabolic steroid use (Ref: Eddie Guerrero)

BTW - yes, the detractors don't believe that Lance's heart is 4x normal size, or anything approaching a pumpkin as some fanboys would have us believe... then again, there could be a medical explanation.

Dave.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I appreciate your Patience and even handedness Francois, however a new poster shows up a right away start going after several long time posters and spouting the same fairy tails. Please excuse me if I do not believe that he has returned for the 200th time

Wonder who gets the first PM.

 

[Maxiton]

And lest my parting postscript above sound flippant, I really do appreciate the good (and so far successful) efforts you are making, Francois, to bring civility to this forum. I know it can't be easy, but it must be satisfying.

 

[Francois the Postman]

Flattery will get you nowhere

Just to remind people that discussions about modding are to be taken to the appropriate subforum. Back on topic please guys.

And Hugh, I am able to take actions in more than 1 direction if I think it is called for. So the 1st PM could be quite a bit trickier to guess than you might suspect (no invite to speculate in public).

 

[Hugh Januss]

Flattery will get you nowhere

Just to remind people that discussions about modding are to be taken to the appropriate subforum. Back on topic please guys.

And Hugh, I am able to take actions in more than 1 direction if I think it is called for. So the 1st PM could be quite a bit trickier to guess than you might suspect (no invite to speculate in public).

I thought speculation was what the forum was all about.

 

[Francois the Postman]

That, and silly cat pictures

 

[ItsWitz]

Ok, thats a start. There are so many more lol.

He dumped Sheryl Crow, .... how dumb is that?!?!!!!

 

[Oldman]

Wait, Lance took his teammates to strip clubs or lap dance clubs or whatever they were? Those poor, poor lads. They must have been sitting in their rooms before hand, heads in hands, lamenting the terrible things they were about to see and think. I mean, is this really the problem, or is it that he didn't invite you?

And as for blow, so-called - I'm shocked, shocked, that they could do such a thing. In every big city in the world, and in many smaller ones, cocaine is the party drug of choice, and it has been for I don't know how long - maybe since the 1920s or 30s. (I seem to recall that Fausto Coppi was said to be quite fond of it - granted that didn't have a happy ending.) That doesn't mean you should be doing it, that doesn't mean it's good for you (and of course that doesn't mean it's exactly legal), but come on, few here can be that naive. If some of the boys wanted to party with cocaine, is that really your concern? It's not like they weren't entitled to a little grown up fun.

This morality police thing is unbecoming, a lame attempt to use anything and everything against the big, bad patron of the peloton. And it's pretty transparent.

PS. Kudos to the moderator for moderating.

I agree. Partying and bicycle racing are two different things. One's for kids and the others for older kids. Unless we're talking about blow and that's for older kids. For awhile.

 

[Dallas_]

First off Polish - great thread

"6 positive samples in 1999"
'Go read the Ashenden Report"
"Backdated TUE"
"EPO transformed Lance"
"Lance could not TT before EPO"
"Lance could not climb before EPO"
'Exclusive deal with Ferrarri"
"Biggest fraud in the History of Sport"
Excellent, excellent...

'Lance is a donkey" - you are being sarcastic. Without a 'boost', miracle boy still had a motor, although not good enough to win a single TDF

Lance was cosey with an "Olsen twin" and Sheryl - Well I wouldnt say no to coffee with either, let alone after dinner mints!

cheers to all

 

[NashbarShorts]

To me, 'talking points' implies relying on manufactured bullsh*t when you've got nothing real to go on.

Nothing could be further from the truth when discussing The Talented Mr. CalfSock.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Good detective work Polish, Andy123 and Dallas too. Interesting quote there Colm.

 

[Rupert]

Well said in the Washington Post

"Horrific but now depressingly mundane practices like transfusing blood. Cocktails of growth hormone, steroids, EPO, testosterone. The list of things riders took to try to beat Armstrong runs on and on. Either Armstrong was monk-like in resisting the temptations so many others succumbed to or he's lying. SI's claims add to the pile of allegations against Armstrong that has grown too large and too explosive to easily dismiss.

Instead, let Jeff Novitzky get to the bottom of it. The taxpayer dollars that "Armstrong's lawyers grumble are being wasted on the federal investigator's hunt of Armstrong will have been money well spent if he unmasks the Tour's biggest champion as a cheat or, alternatively, determines that there's really nothing or not much there.
The current limbo of allegation vs. denial, of mounting anecdotal evidence but no smoking-gun proof that Armstrong doped, is good for nobody, with the exception of journalists to whom this offers a rich vein of stories.

Bad for Armstrong and the cancer survivors he fills with hope. Bad for cycling, which combats doping more convincingly now than during Armstrong's winning era. And bad for all of us who want to believe in champions and be inspired by the human body's capacity to achieve incredible things. "

Good reasons to continue to ignore the blog frenzy and wait and see what Novitsky comes up with, then move on...

 

[andy1234]

Good detective work Polish, Andy123 and Dallas too. Interesting quote there Colm.

Hardly detective work, more like a P**s take.

 

[Benotti69]

"Horrific but now depressingly mundane practices like transfusing blood. Cocktails of growth hormone, steroids, EPO, testosterone. The list of things riders took to try to beat Armstrong runs on and on. Either Armstrong was monk-like in resisting the temptations so many others succumbed to or he's lying. SI's claims add to the pile of allegations against Armstrong that has grown too large and too explosive to easily dismiss.

Instead, let Jeff Novitzky get to the bottom of it. The taxpayer dollars that "Armstrong's lawyers grumble are being wasted on the federal investigator's hunt of Armstrong will have been money well spent if he unmasks the Tour's biggest champion as a cheat or, alternatively, determines that there's really nothing or not much there.
The current limbo of allegation vs. denial, of mounting anecdotal evidence but no smoking-gun proof that Armstrong doped, is good for nobody, with the exception of journalists to whom this offers a rich vein of stories.

Bad for Armstrong and the cancer survivors he fills with hope. Bad for cycling, which combats doping more convincingly now than during Armstrong's winning era. And bad for all of us who want to believe in champions and be inspired by the human body's capacity to achieve incredible things. "

Good reasons to continue to ignore the blog frenzy and wait and see what Novitsky comes up with, then move on...

if you want to believe in people who can achieve incredible things with their bodies, go watch the ParaOlympics not professional cycling.

cycling isn't any cleaner today that during 99 - 05.

 

[Cobblestoned]

if you want to believe in people who can achieve incredible things with their bodies, go watch the ParaOlympics not professional cycling.

cycling isn't any cleaner today that during 99 - 05.

Cycling has never been clean. Starting with good bottle of wine, going over amphetamines, bloodtransfusions, ending where we are today with Hormones, EPO, crocodile blood and everything.


Sorry, that I have to steal your last hope:
http://ard.ndr.de/peking2008/paralympics/doping108.html
http://ard.ndr.de/peking2008/paralympics/doping/gesperrtesportler100.html

 

[Rupert]

edited quote...

if you want to believe in people who can achieve incredible things with their bodies, go watch the ParaOlympics not professional cycling.

cycling isn't any cleaner today that during 99 - 05.

Not highlighted the same as what I posted... my emphasis was on a different part of the quote.
I trained for 3 years with a Paralympic cyclist (did not race, just a "training pilot." I am well aware of the paralympics.

 

[Benotti69]

Cycling has never been clean, honker. Starting with good bottle of wine, going over amphetamines, bloodtransfusions, ending where we are today with Hormones, EPO, crocodile blood and everything.

it's very obvious someone like yourself Cobbedly consumes vast quantities of such substances. your postings prove that

 

[andy1234]

if you want to believe in people who can achieve incredible things with their bodies, go watch the ParaOlympics not professional cycling.

cycling isn't any cleaner today that during 99 - 05.

Couldn't agree with you more on the paralympics.

 

[ergmonkey]

if you want to believe in people who can achieve incredible things with their bodies, go watch the ParaOlympics not professional cycling.

I shared time at the Olympic Training Center with a group of the best U.S. ParaOlympic track & field competitors. Seriously impressive athletes and people.

I'd like to think nothing would change in their sports even if you flooded the ParaOlympics with millions of dollars worth of prize money.

 

[Cobblestoned]

it's very obvious someone like yourself Cobbedly consumes vast quantities of such substances. you postings prove that

You trolly haters ask for substance and claim that people like me are just trolling.
Like often, I deliver you substance or an opinion. Everyone knows that my post is the truth.
I even gave you links to crush your other dream on top.

Now you again can't accept that someone like me is/was right and you claim that I am on drugs or a junkie.
I am not surprised, because this is common practice, but thats not the way things work. Just said that again. But hey, I can't change the fact that you and your friends are "protected riders" and can do and write whatever you want here, even worst insults. I accepted that, if I can respond adequate to what is still there and should not be there even without informing the mods.

I know, I know they are busy people who didn't recognize your crap.
Standard answer. I learned to save that energy.
Some of them are busy with praising you and your mates for pulling senseless crap out of the internet or remembering the posters that a thread is not about Lemond, after someone mentioned his name. That really made my day. lol

 

[Benotti69]

.......trolling.
Like often... I deliver ......
.......... is...right and ........ that I am on drugs or a junkie.

I am not surprised, .........I accepted that, I .........should not be..here ...

I know, I know .......... crap.
.
.

only 2 hours for you to respond. you must be cutting down.

i edited it for others to understand