Teams & Riders The Big 6

[Red Rick]

Vingegaard and Van der Poel are both specialists, but Van der Poel's specialization just happens to not completely overlap with Pogacar.

In my view, Van der Poel is not better in his own field than Vingegaard, and therefor I disagree that he is deserving of his own tier.

Then, an argument can be made that Evenepoel doesn't belong in this tier because ITT championships do not contain tier 1 races and he isn't in the Vingegaard level in Grand Tours, but I think his relative dominance in hilly monuments is enough over the rest of the field minus Pogacar he gets in. He should really start racing RVV and Sanremo though.

 

[dobrien]

I would put Van Der Poel on his own in Tier 2 and bump everyone else down a notch on the basis that he is the only rider still favoured to beat Pogacar on any monument, grand tour or road racing championship with MSR and PR being the specific examples.

I do agree MVDP is alone in Tier 2, but I would definitely no longer say MVDP is 'favoured' to beat Pog at either of those races. But for an overcooked corner Pog would have given the much more experienced Mathieu everything he could have handled and maybe then some in his FIRST ever PR; barring disaster I'd bet my house on Pog soloing into the velodrome in the Rainbow jersey next spring. Maybe MSR isn't quite hard enough for Pog to get rid of everyone so that one may prove more elusive, but after watching Pog this year I honestly would put nothing past him at this point and unlike MVDP Pog is still in his prime years, and is so far ahead of everyone else in GTs and hilly classics can afford to fully focus on the 2 big races missing from his palmares. Obviously these races are more of a lottery so I give MVDP much more chance of winning these two over Vinge beating Pog in a GT, which is why I'd have Vinge still in Tier 3.

I think Vinge's ship has sailed for any GT with Pog in it.

I say none of the above as a blind Pogi fanboy, it's just how good I think he is.

Hopefully Remco can find that old '19 year old kid who won CSS' magic again at RBH and get himself into Tier 2 for races like LBL, but that's about it imho unless one of the younger up and coming guys takes the next step, and until Pog starts his decline.

It depends on how you rate ITT vs RR

Not super highly.

Just my .02.

 

[AmRacer]

Vingegaard and Van der Poel are both specialists, but Van der Poel's specialization just happens to not completely overlap with Pogacar.

In my view, Van der Poel is not better in his own field than Vingegaard.

He's the last man standing or Pogi would sweep all monuments in one season. It will be interesting to see how good he's next season.

 

[Netserk]

Vingegaard and Van der Poel are both specialists, but Van der Poel's specialization just happens to not completely overlap with Pogacar.

In my view, Van der Poel is not better in his own field than Vingegaard, and therefor I disagree that he is deserving of his own tier.

Then, an argument can be made that Evenepoel doesn't belong in this tier because ITT championships do not contain tier 1 races and he isn't in the Vingegaard level in Grand Tours, but I think his relative dominance in hilly monuments is enough over the rest of the field minus Pogacar he gets in. He should really start racing RVV and Sanremo though.

For non-Pogi comparisons:

• Cobbles: Van der Poel vs. Pedersen and Van Aert
• GTs: Vingegaard vs. Evenepoel and Rogla
• Hilly: Evenepoel vs. Ciccone and Healy

 

[dobrien]

Vingegaard and Van der Poel are both specialists, but Van der Poel's specialization just happens to not completely overlap with Pogacar.

In my view, Van der Poel is not better in his own field than Vingegaard, and therefor I disagree that he is deserving of his own tier.

Then, an argument can be made that Evenepoel doesn't belong in this tier because ITT championships do not contain tier 1 races and he isn't in the Vingegaard level in Grand Tours, but I think his relative dominance in hilly monuments is enough over the rest of the field minus Pogacar he gets in. He should really start racing RVV and Sanremo though.

This is a good post, and is why ranking the riders in Tiers like this is a harder excersize than at first glance. That said, I don't fully agree VDP is not better in his own field than Vingegaard though; Vingegaard is currently not winning any GT with Pog in it, where Mathieu can definitely still win PR and MSR with Pog present. I think the 'Big X' either has to be kind of broad, or we have to slice it down into more narrow disciplines which to me kind of defeats the purpose. Personally at the moment I'd have a 'Big 4' of Pog, MVDP, Vingegaard, and Remco, and leave it at that until someone else breaks their way into it.

 

[Netserk]

This is a good post, and is why ranking the riders in Tiers like this is a harder excersize than at first glance. That said, I don't fully agree VDP is not better in his own field than Vingegaard though; Vingegaard is currently not winning any GT with Pog in it, where Mathieu can definitely still win PR and MSR with Pog present. I think the 'Big X' either has to be kind of broad, or we have to slice it down into more narrow disciplines which to me kind of defeats the purpose. Personally at the moment I'd have a 'Big 4' of Pog, MVDP, Vingegaard, and Remco, and leave it at that until someone else breaks their way into it.

So if Pogi had a schedule like in 2021, you'd exclude VdP?

By making Pogi the standard, you favour the riders who compete where Pogi seeks challenges. Had he challenged himself by trying to outsprint Philipsen in Sanremo, then he should be in tier 2 as well.

 

[Red Rick]

This is a good post, and is why ranking the riders in Tiers like this is a harder excersize than at first glance. That said, I don't fully agree VDP is not better in his own field than Vingegaard though; Vingegaard is currently not winning any GT with Pog in it, where Mathieu can definitely still win PR and MSR with Pog present. I think the 'Big X' either has to be kind of broad, or we have to slice it down into more narrow disciplines which to me kind of defeats the purpose. Personally at the moment I'd have a 'Big 4' of Pog, MVDP, Vingegaard, and Remco, and leave it at that until someone else breaks their way into it.

Well MSR and Roubaix just happen to be races Van der Poel is way more specialized towards than Pogacar. So for the more important indicator is does he consistently beat everyone else, and Vingegaard hasn't really lost a GT to anyone else since 2020 unless we're including the 2023 Vuelta.

 

[Berniece]

In my view, Van der Poel is not better in his own field than Vingegaard, and therefor I disagree that he is deserving of his own tier.

MVDP is seen as one of the best ever in cobbled classics. Same can't be said about Vingegaard in GT's.

 

[Red Rick]

MVDP is seen as one of the best ever in cobbled classics. Same can't be said about Vingegaard in GT's.

For the exact same reason as I previously mentioned.

 

[hayneplane]

Vingegaard and Van der Poel are both specialists, but Van der Poel's specialization just happens to not completely overlap with Pogacar.

In my view, Van der Poel is not better in his own field than Vingegaard, and therefor I disagree that he is deserving of his own tier.

Then, an argument can be made that Evenepoel doesn't belong in this tier because ITT championships do not contain tier 1 races and he isn't in the Vingegaard level in Grand Tours, but I think his relative dominance in hilly monuments is enough over the rest of the field minus Pogacar he gets in. He should really start racing RVV and Sanremo though.

Looking at how dominant MVDP was against Pedersen and others in E3 in Pogacars absence compared to a fairly slender winning margin for Vingegaard against Almeida in the Vuelta I don’t see much evidence to support your point.

I do agree MVDP is alone in Tier 2, but I would definitely no longer say MVDP is 'favoured' to beat Pog at either of those races. But for an overcooked corner Pog would have given the much more experienced Mathieu everything he could have handled and maybe then some in his FIRST ever PR; barring disaster I'd bet my house on Pog soloing into the velodrome in the Rainbow jersey next spring. Maybe MSR isn't quite hard enough for Pog to get rid of everyone so that one may prove more elusive, but after watching Pog this year I honestly would put nothing past him at this point and unlike MVDP Pog is still in his prime years, and is so far ahead of everyone else in GTs and hilly classics can afford to fully focus on the 2 big races missing from his palmares. Obviously these races are more of a lottery so I give MVDP much more chance of winning these two over Vinge beating Pog in a GT, which is why I'd have Vinge still in Tier 3.

I think Vinge's ship has sailed for any GT with Pog in it.

I say none of the above as a blind Pogi fanboy, it's just how good I think he is.

Hopefully Remco can find that old '19 year old kid who won CSS' magic again at RBH and get himself into Tier 2 for races like LBL, but that's about it imho unless one of the younger up and coming guys takes the next step, and until Pog starts his decline.



Not super highly.

Just my .02.

What you say is plausible and Pogacar winning the two monuments yet to feature in his palmares would shock anybody but not one single major betting company has him as favourite for either MSR or PR.

 

[Netserk]

Looking at how dominant MVDP was against Pedersen and others in E3 in Pogacars absence compared to a fairly slender winning margin for Vingegaard against Almeida in the Vuelta I don’t see much evidence to support your point.

Why not compare him to Pedersen in Ronde? Or Wevelgem last year?

A more comparable matchup between Vingegaard and Almeida was the 2024 Tour.

 

[Berniece]

Why not compare him to Pedersen in Ronde? Or Wevelgem last year?

A more comparable matchup between Vingegaard and Almeida was the 2024 Tour.

Because MVDP was ill before De Ronde and crashed during it.

 

[Netserk]

Because MVDP was ill before De Ronde and crashed during it.

Vingegaard was ill in the Vuelta and crashed during it.

Is it supposed to be like-for-likes or stacking the deck?

 

[red_flanders]

Just the big wins below. Of course there are other ways of looking at it, but...wins are wins.

MVdP
3x Ronde (24, 22, 20)
3x PR (25, 24, 23)
2x MSR (25, 23)
1x World Champion (23)

Add 2x Saxo, 2x Dwars, Amstel in stunning fashion, Strade...

Vingo
2x Tour de France (23, 22)
1x Vuelta (25)
Add 1x Dauphine, 1x Tirenno, 1x Basque

Would anyone deny that MVdP is a "Legend" of the sport at this point? Or at least that he will be when all said and done? I have him as a legend, whatever that means in my brain. Would I call Vingegaard a legend? I wouldn't. 3 Tours, probably. All 3 GT's, probably, but not unequivocally. So likely both are legends when all is said and done. But for me, MVdP has the more impressive domination of his domain at this point.

I really like MVdP and I really like classics. I don't dislike Vingegaard, but his personality and riding style do little for me. So I have bias. But I also would say that MVdP has an objectively more attacking style, a more committed style, and has wins which made me stand up and shout out loud watching, while Vingo...not so much. MVdP in my view has a better palmares in his discipline, and has a style and panache which make him a legend. Where Vingo is a great rider, but not terribly inspiring.

 

[Netserk]

I think this topic is about strength and dominance relative to the non-big riders.

By palmares, Van Aert should never have been included. So which standard would have Van Aert pass two years ago but not Vingegaard today?

 

[AmRacer]

Because MVDP was ill before De Ronde and crashed during it.

Excuses

 

[Berniece]

Vingegaard was ill in the Vuelta and crashed during it.

Is it supposed to be like-for-likes or stacking the deck?

Are we comparing the impact of such a thing on 1 day race with 3 weeks?

 

[vappaxbipmv]

Just the big wins below. Of course there are other ways of looking at it, but...wins are wins.

MVdP
3x Ronde (24, 22, 20)
3x PR (25, 24, 23)
2x MSR (25, 23)
1x World Champion (23)

Add 2x Saxo, 2x Dwars, Amstel in stunning fashion, Strade...

Vingo
2x Tour de France (23, 22)
1x Vuelta (25)
Add 1x Dauphine, 1x Tirenno, 1x Basque

Would anyone deny that MVdP is a "Legend" of the sport at this point? Or at least that he will be when all said and done? I have him as a legend, whatever that means in my brain. Would I call Vingegaard a legend? I wouldn't. 3 Tours, probably. All 3 GT's, probably, but not unequivocally. So likely both are legends when all is said and done. But for me, MVdP has the more impressive domination of his domain at this point.

I really like MVdP and I really like classics. I don't dislike Vingegaard, but his personality and riding style do little for me. So I have bias. But I also would say that MVdP has an objectively more attacking style, a more committed style, and has wins which made me stand up and shout out loud watching, while Vingo...not so much. MVdP in my view has a better palmares in his discipline, and has a style and panache which make him a legend. Where Vingo is a great rider, but not terribly inspiring.

I'm not a Jonas fan but that doesn't prove that MvdP in classics is better than Jonas in GTs. Jonas was battling against Pogacar who is much better suited for racing GTs than he is for racing the cobbled classics + MSR. Jonas was racing against the highest possible form that Pogacar could ever achieve, at 66kg (or whatever) he can never be a highest possible form on himself on cobbles. Now if he shows up at 70kg and 20 added watts and MvdP still beats him then sure

What I'm saying is that Pogacar in cobbled classics cannot be as good as Pogacar in GTs due to his weight. He wins because he's really really strong, not because he's perfectly suited for it

 

[hayneplane]

Why not compare him to Pedersen in Ronde? Or Wevelgem last year?

A more comparable matchup between Vingegaard and Almeida was the 2024 Tour.

Different dynamics then as 1st place had already disappeared up the road.

 

[red_flanders]

I'm not a Jonas fan but that doesn't prove that MvdP in classics is better than Jonas in GTs. Jonas was battling against Pogacar who is much better suited for racing GTs than he is for racing the cobbled classics + MSR. Jonas was racing against the highest possible form that Pogacar could ever achieve, at 66kg (or whatever) he can never be a highest possible form on himself on cobbles. Now if he shows up at 70kg and 20 added watts and MvdP still beats him then sure

What I'm saying is that Pogacar in cobbled classics cannot be as good as Pogacar in GTs due to his weight. He wins because he's really really strong, not because he's perfectly suited for it

Just my point of view, not trying to prove anything. Pog affects both their palmares and will for the next several years. Jonas probably more, the degree to which maybe dependent on how much one values GTs, vs one-day races.

Anyway, I like MVdP over Vingo but I don't think someone else feeling like it's more equal is unreasonable.