Teams & Riders The Big 6

[Berniece]

For example last year in Kigali, the race was pretty underwhelming for entertainment. Remco finished the race in the first checkpoint.

So exactly like last years TDF where it was over in week 1?

 

[AmRacer]

So exactly like last years TDF where it was over in week 1?

Much can happens in two weeks of racing

 

[Peter von]

Tony Martin not a big name in cycling is one of the more bizarre things to read on this forum.

Apparently there is a very high bar to clear in order to be a big name.

I think it’s because some people are focused on “big 6” discussions so they use the word “big” to mean something like “big 6 worthy”.
Which means the ones reading “big” to mean. “Big” in the normal sense - are left a bit confused when they read that Tony Martin or Virenque were never big names.

 

[vappa]

TTs are in my opinion overrated. They present about 10% of rider's race days in a season and most guys do not care about them at all, it's almost a rest day

 

[canina82]

A big name is someone we talk in the future, someone we loved, someone we want to watch racing. I don't remember a single fan of Tony Martin.
These days people neglect what is a big name. We look to Tony's generation and there is anyone who mention Tony as one of the greats from that generation? Of course not.
We talk about Contador, Froome, Cancellara, Nibali, Sagan, Cavendish, Quintana, Valverde, Purito, even Kittel and Greipel are more remembered than Tony Martin.

 

[Coppi-Bartali]

Tony Martin has been a great time trialist, but he hasn't been considered on par with Cancellara, whose high regard stems from his achievements beyond time trials. Tony Martin hasn't been considered at the same level as Contador or Tom Boonen, each a specialist in a different aspect of cycling.

Tony Martin's talent is undeniable, but it would be a lie to claim that his TT victories gave him the same recognition as Contador's climbing victories or Boonen's classics victories.

I'm not exactly a fan of sprinters, but Cavendish and Kittel have also enjoyed greater status, although not as much as someone who wins a Grand Tour or Paris-Roubaix. However, they are more considered than the great time trialists.

Perhaps what penalizes that discipline is that the cycling world championships didn't exist until 1994. I don't know, but no, Tony Martin has never been held in the same regard as a good climber like Contador or a good classics rider like Boonen, and what gave Cancellara his status were his achievements outside of time trials.
Remco is part of the big-six mainly because of what he has on outside of ITT, otherwise he would be considered a great time trialist like Tony Martin or like Ganna was until Remco appeared. Ganna has never been considered in a BIG. Ganna has always been expected to do more in classics to have that recognition. That's why their San Remo performance last year was so highly regarded.

You may find it unfair, but it´s simply a description of reality.

 

[Netserk]

Tony Martin is definitely a big name. He's up there with the specialists of his era, like Kittel etc.

Mick Rogers doesn't really come close to Martin. The best time triallists of his generation didn't care about the World TT, it wasn't a proper contest. By Martin's time it was (hence him winning several Tour stages too).

Pre-2005ish, the big TTers were also GC guys – Indurain, Anquetil, Ullrich, Rominger, Moser, Armstrong, etc. But we remember them for their TT ability as well as their overall strength.

if ganna couldnt contend classics or stage races , would he rank as highly as merlier ?

 

[Berniece]

Tony Martin catching strays because people want to discredit Evenepoel 😂

 

[AmRacer]

Tony Martin catching strays because people want to discredit Evenepoel 😂

? Remco has a few wins on the road

 

[Brullnux]

if ganna couldnt contend classics or stage races , would he rank as highly as merlier ?

Ganna has never won a Tour stage and isn't the best TTer in the world, so no.

If he was as dominant as Martin, then yes, and probably above Merlier who has been at this level only for a couple of years.

However, even if Ganna couldn't contend classics or stage races I think he'd be ranked higher than Milan (in Italy at least).

 

[canina82]

if ganna couldnt contend classics or stage races , would he rank as highly as merlier ?

I still the stage (cobbles) he won in the Tour 2015 and he thought he could contend in PR. For those who don't know that stage almost didn't have cobbles (nothing close to what we saw the year before).
Then he started to race PR and he was nowhere to be seen.

 

[Netserk]

Ganna has never won a Tour stage and isn't the best TTer in the world, so no.

If he was as dominant as Martin, then yes, and probably above Merlier who has been at this level only for a couple of years.

i think merlier is comparable as a sprint specialist to ganna

milan is more successful as a sprinter than merlier is , and the latter has only 3 wins in the tour which is very little for an elite sprinter

viviani is also not a big name , despite having won in the tour

 

[Brullnux]

i think merlier is comparable as a sprint specialist to ganna

milan is more successful as a sprinter than merlier is , and the latter has only 3 wins in the tour which is very little for an elite sprinter

It's funny you say that, as I think even as a TTer (his worth/fame/interest in 2022), Ganna is a bigger name than Milan is.

 

[Coppi-Bartali]

Tony Martin catching strays because people want to discredit Evenepoel 😂

Have you read the messages?

..................
Remco is part of the big-six mainly because of what he has on outside of ITT, otherwise he would be considered a great time trialist like Tony Martin or like Ganna was until Remco appeared. Ganna has never been considered in a BIG. Ganna has always been expected to do more in classics to have that recognition. That's why their San Remo performance last year was so highly regarded.
.................

Nor have I read anyone undervaluing Remco because of Tony Martin.
What has happened is precisely the opposite. Some of you have overvalued Tony Martin's standing in cycling to give Remco more credit. Which is a mistake because Remco doesn't need that; he's more than just a time trialist.

 

[Netserk]

It's funny you say that, as I think even as a TTer (his worth/fame/interest in 2022), Ganna is a bigger name than Milan is.

without the track and just based on his level now ?

 

[Berniece]

Have you read the messages?




Nor have I read anyone undervaluing Remco because of Tony Martin.
What has happened is precisely the opposite. Some of you have overvalued Tony Martin's standing in cycling to give Remco more credit. Which is a mistake because Remco doesn't need that; he's more than just a time trialist.

Yes, I’ve read the past few posts saying TT isn’t much

 

[AmRacer]

Yes, I’ve read the past few posts saying TT isn’t much

Remco is more than TT, if you haven't noticed it.

 

[SHAD0W93]

A big name is someone we talk in the future, someone we loved, someone we want to watch racing. I don't remember a single fan of Tony Martin.
These days people neglect what is a big name. We look to Tony's generation and there is anyone who mention Tony as one of the greats from that generation? Of course not.
We talk about Contador, Froome, Cancellara, Nibali, Sagan, Cavendish, Quintana, Valverde, Purito, even Kittel and Greipel are more remembered than Tony Martin.

@Bavarianrider

 

[Netserk]

pidcock is a bigger rider than tony martin already

 

[rallybanana]

There’s a Tadej, Van Aert and Evenepoel also. No Seixas as of yet

There's a Sizzling Seixas

 

[QueenStagiaire]

pidcock is a bigger rider than tony martin already

Actually he‘s almost 20 kilos lighter and 15 centimeters shorter, he‘ll never be as big a rider as Tony Martin.

 

[canina82]

I would like to know which criteria is necessary to belong to a Big x (whatever number you think is correct). At this point, there is a Big3, with only Vingegaard, Pogacar and MVP. Let's see if Remco can win a major race this year. If not, it's the second year in a row he doesn't win a single major race.
Roglic and Wout are definitely out.

 

[Brullnux]

without the track and just based on his level now ?

The conversation is all a bit chicken/egg and circular. What makes Ganna a good TTer is also what makes him compete in other races/track, but he's a TT specialist first and foremost.

But yes, Ganna's reputation and fame in 2022 (when be was the best TTer in the world, no classics record to speak of, a few lower end stage races based on his TT) exceeds Milan's now. I think that would have probably also been the case without the track, but it is very hard (impossible?) separate track/TT with Ganna. That said, Milan was also in the TP and has an IP world record so maybe it evens out.

But anyway – Tony Martin was a big name who even people with only a vague knowledge of cycling (tune in for the Tour, Worlds, Olympics, etc) had likely heard of. People are doing him a disservice in this thread. If we narrow 'big name' to just 'ten most famous of his generation' then he's outside that, but he's not that much outside it.

 

[canina82]

The conversation is all a bit chicken/egg and circular. What makes Ganna a good TTer is also what makes him compete in other races/track, but he's a TT specialist first and foremost.

But yes, Ganna's reputation and fame in 2022 (when be was the best TTer in the world, no classics record to speak of, a few lower end stage races based on his TT) exceeds Milan's now. I think that would have probably also been the case without the track, but it is very hard (impossible?) separate track/TT with Ganna. That said, Milan was also in the TP and has an IP world record so maybe it evens out.

But anyway – Tony Martin was a big name who even people with only a vague knowledge of cycling (tune in for the Tour, Worlds, Olympics, etc) had likely heard of. People are doing him a disservice in this thread. If we narrow 'big name' to just 'ten most famous of his generation' then he's outside that, but he's not that much outside it.

I clearly mentioned what is a big name. If a big name is someone who wasn't just a random domestique in his era, fine. There are plenty of riders who are big. Even Demare will end up a "big rider" of his generation.

Big names are riders who will be remembered in 20-30 years. Even these new cycling fans in the forum don't even know who were Peter van Petegem or Leipheimer and these guys were far more popular than Martin.

 

[Netserk]

I would like to know which criteria is necessary to belong to a Big x (whatever number you think is correct). At this point, there is a Big3, with only Vingegaard, Pogacar and MVP. Let's see if Remco can win a major race this year. If not, it's the second year in a row he doesn't win a single major race.
Roglic and Wout are definitely out.

big 20

1. pogi
2. vingegaard
3. van der poel
4. evenepoel
5. phil
6. muaddib
7. pidders
8. rogla
9. milan
10. lipo
11. horsie
12. bota lume
13. macho pedersen
14. van aert
15. bullsitter
16. top ganna
17. carapaz
18. geesus
19. brennan
20. ayuso