The Bonds verdict, what it could mean for cycling

[pleyser]

The parallels between cycling and baseball's drug issues never have been
so apparent.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commentary/news/story?page=bryant/110413

Both sports have:

-distinctly tainted eras
-athletes who have confessed PED use
-athletes who will deny PED use to their last breath
-records and accomplishments that will have asterisks in the court of public opinion

If Lance is ever indicted, I wonder if he will have a Greg Anderson who holds the truth, but would rather spend time in prison than testify.

 

[Andynonomous]

Parallels everywhere.

Most high level sports have many of the aforementioned aspects.

At least cycling, track and field, and baseball have to some degree admitted that there is a problem.

Not so for Tennis, NBA, NHL, Soccer, Swimming, and many other sports.

 

[shawnrohrbach]

The parallels between cycling and baseball's drug issues never have been
so apparent.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commentary/news/story?page=bryant/110413

Both sports have:

-distinctly tainted eras
-athletes who have confessed PED use
-athletes who will deny PED use to their last breath
-records and accomplishments that will have asterisks in the court of public opinion

If Lance is ever indicted, I wonder if he will have a Greg Anderson who holds the truth, but would rather spend time in prison than testify.

The part of denying to their last breath was the undoing of Richard Milhouse Nixon. He admitted the cover up cost him more than the crime.

 

[Kennf1]

The only potential parallels between the Bonds case and the Armstrong investigation would be if one of the witnesses subpoeaned to testify before the grand jury (teammates, McIlvain, etc.) lied under oath, and that later becomes an issue. Bonds was not the target of the BALCO investigation, he was a fact witness (along with Marion Jones).

While we still don't know the charges contemplated in the Armstrong investigation, I seriously doubt that perjury in the SCA deposition is a focus.

The fact that Bill Strickland thinks we all "learned a lot" from the Bonds trial shows that he has, once again, gone off the deep end.

 

[happychappy]

I wonder what it could mean for.. anything and everything. 80 million because someone took a few roids? I wonder if that money could have been used for something a little more important.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I'm not American, or a baseball fan, so this anaysis really jumped out at me. Switch 'baseball' for 'cycling', and you could've found it in any cycling publication...

From the ESPN article:

Wednesday's verdict in the Bonds trial is confusing and in many ways unsatisfying, but it reinforces baseball's terrible truth: the steroid era is the most discredited period in the history of American professional sports. The apologists will continue to try to laugh the era off as hyperbole, suggesting that players have been looking for an edge since there were eight balls in an at-bat and pitchers threw underhand. Or they will continue to criticize the government for wasting taxpayer's time and money on the Bonds prosecution, or try to use the nonsensical argument that players who used uppers in the 1960s were no different than the players injecting themselves with female fertility drugs.

 

[Polish]

I have not followed basball closely for a while now.
Missed the Bonds Era.

But it sounds like "Barry was transformed by PEDS" is a myth.
Sounds like Barry was a level above the others....

Bonds is so far over the line that no one who even pretends to understand how physics and chemistry work can say that he’s some sort of bogus steroid creation. To quote Bill James’ comment about Rickey Henderson: if you cut him in half, you’d have two Hall of Famers. In Bonds case way may even be able to go thirds.

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/04/11/kettmann-bonds-will-eventually-make-the-hall-of-fame/
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[Benotti69]

I'm not American, or a baseball fan, so this anaysis really jumped out at me. Switch 'baseball' for 'cycling', and you could've found it in any cycling publication...

From the ESPN article:

Wednesday's verdict in the Bonds trial is confusing and in many ways unsatisfying, but it reinforces baseball's terrible truth: the steroid era is the most discredited period in the history of American professional sports. The apologists will continue to try to laugh the era off as hyperbole, suggesting that players have been looking for an edge since there were eight balls in an at-bat and pitchers threw underhand. Or they will continue to criticize the government for wasting taxpayer's time and money on the Bonds prosecution, or try to use the nonsensical argument that players who used uppers in the 1960s were no different than the players injecting themselves with female fertility drugs.

I wonder are the fanboys as bad as the ones we have^^

 

[ergmonkey]

I have not followed basball closely for a while now.
Missed the Bonds Era.

But it sounds like "Barry was transformed by PEDS" is a myth.
Sounds like Barry was a level above the others....



http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/04/11/kettmann-bonds-will-eventually-make-the-hall-of-fame/
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The enormity of Bonds' talent was apparent from his rookie year onwards.

The fact that his power-hitting improved immensely so late in his career is still very compelling circumstantial evidence of abuse.

Without PEDs, Bonds is a Hall of Famer. With PEDs, Bonds is the All-Time Home Run King. If you care about the sport, it still makes a difference.

 

[D-Queued]

I wonder are the fanboys as bad as the ones we have^^

And I wonder how much influence firms like Public Strategies have here, and how much they are trying to manage the spin?

If I had the money, and had a lot of personal wealth riding on the influence of this outcome, I might be spending a lot on PR spin right now. That at least one article used the 'witch hunt' line suggested there may be a lot of this going on.

wrt to the OP and thread title, minimally the Bonds decision provides a glimmer of hope.

It isn't only that these sports have been overwhelmed by the influence of $, but also by the extreme abuse and distortion of PED use. That you are not too big to get away with it, that you are not above the law, and that the law does have a long arm is a valuable reaffirmation.

The justice system may not be perfect, but it is the best one we have.

Dave.

 

[Polish]

The enormity of Bonds' talent was apparent from his rookie year onwards.

The fact that his power-hitting improved immensely so late in his career is still very compelling circumstantial evidence of abuse.

Without PEDs, Bonds is a Hall of Famer. With PEDs, Bonds is the All-Time Home Run King. If you care about the sport, it still makes a difference.

As a little boy, my parents would let me take the train on my own down to the "Friendly Confines". I would sit in the bleachers a few rows behind the Bleacher Bums during their heyday. Great memories! Huge FanBoy.

Anyway, continued to follow baseball until Bonds/LeMond came along.
That is when I became interested in cycling and less interested in Baseball.
I guess for me, cycling killed baseball....

 

[Benotti69]

And I wonder how much influence firms like Public Strategies have here, and how much they are trying to manage the spin?

If I had the money, and had a lot of personal wealth riding on the influence of this outcome, I might be spending a lot on PR spin right now. That at least one article used the 'witch hunt' line suggested there may be a lot of this going on.

wrt to the OP and thread title, minimally the Bonds decision provides a glimmer of hope.

It isn't only that these sports have been overwhelmed by the influence of $, but also by the extreme abuse and distortion of PED use. That you are not too big to get away with it, that you are not above the law, and that the law does have a long arm is a valuable reaffirmation.

The justice system may not be perfect, but it is the best one we have.

Dave.

amen to that

i think what Novitsky is on the trail as of right now in going after Gunderson goes much deeper though. Bonds was not calling the shots on the team like Gunderson. Gunderson had a say on everything and everything had to be run past him so it will be much bigger fall than what Bonds would ever take.

 

[doperhopper]

most doped sports

add weightlifting - they even better changed the weight categories in order to forget about the insane records of the wild past... and cycling is not that far, just check the best times on famous mountains from wild EPO era

 

[skippythepinhead]

I lived in Pittsburgh and watched Bonds play. He was a joy to watch in the early days and I was sad when he and Bobby Bonilla left, especially because of the lack of a World Championship. But you have to accept reality in a small market and move on. Then, as I watched his head and body explode like Violet Beauregard's sans the blueberry tinge, and his legacy implode, the only thing I wondered is What If? What if he didn't make that choice? Those choices? And I wonder whether he wonders or whether he really felt there was no choice.

 

[kurtinsc]

I have not followed basball closely for a while now.
Missed the Bonds Era.

But it sounds like "Barry was transformed by PEDS" is a myth.
Sounds like Barry was a level above the others....



http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/04/11/kettmann-bonds-will-eventually-make-the-hall-of-fame/
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Bonds was an amazing player before he used steroids. A sure hall of famer.

But he was a hall of famer based on being a 5-tool player... and he was ****ed that he was being overshadowed by pure power guys. The home run is king in baseball. In 1996 he became the second player EVER to hit 40 home runs and steal 40 bases. In 1998 he became the only player with 400 home runs and 400 steals in a career... and nobody noticed because of Sammy Sosa and Mark McGuire's chase of the single season home run record.

He was furious. He was the best player in baseball, but was constantly finishing behind pure power hitters in MVP voting. Nobody seemed to care if you weren't hitting 50 home runs.

So he went on the juice. He went from a skinny guy with speed to a hugely muscled guy with a gigantic head who could knock the ball out of the park while breaking his bat. He stopped winning gold gloves (he had 8), instead winning four MVP's in a row.

He was completely transformed. Look at these pictures and tell me there was no transformation.

 

[flicker]

And I wonder how much influence firms like Public Strategies have here, and how much they are trying to manage the spin?

If I had the money, and had a lot of personal wealth riding on the influence of this outcome, I might be spending a lot on PR spin right now. That at least one article used the 'witch hunt' line suggested there may be a lot of this going on.

wrt to the OP and thread title, minimally the Bonds decision provides a glimmer of hope.

It isn't only that these sports have been overwhelmed by the influence of $, but also by the extreme abuse and distortion of PED use. That you are not too big to get away with it, that you are not above the law, and that the law does have a long arm is a valuable reaffirmation.

The justice system may not be perfect, but it is the best one we have.

Dave.

No PR firm such as public strategies would want association with Bonds or his trial. The trial never really proved anything, except to shine light on Bonds' and tarnish baseball. While Bonds' and pro baseball may be deserving of tarnishment, anyone who has association with the Bonds' trial, including Novizky, is automatically going to have suspicion around themselves.

 

[darkcloud]

I have not followed basball closely for a while now.
Missed the Bonds Era.

But it sounds like "Barry was transformed by PEDS" is a myth.
Sounds like Barry was a level above the others....



http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/04/11/kettmann-bonds-will-eventually-make-the-hall-of-fame/
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BARRY BONDS WAS A LATE BLOOMER

Game of Shadows is being released in paperback, and Mark (Jedi name) Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams have written a special afterword that documents, for the 3 billionth time, that Barry Bonds used every performance-enhancing drug on the planet. An excerpt:

For his part, [equipment manager Mike] Murphy could document Bonds' physical changes via the changes in his uniform size. Since joining the Giants, Bonds had gone from a size 42 to a size 52 jersey; from size 10 ½ to size 13 cleats; and from a size 7 1/8 to size 7 ¼ cap, even though he had taken to shaving his head. The changes in his foot and head size were of special interest: medical experts said overuse of Human Growth Hormone could cause an adult's extremities to begin growing.

I dunno. I don't really see how this proves anything. I mean, it's pretty common for a grown man's feet to grow two and a half sizes when he works out in the gym as much as Bonds. Combine that with the growth spurt most men have in their early 30s, and it makes perfect sense.

Besides, I don't think we can trust these numbers. No way dude's head was only a 7¼ in 2003. Normal people can wear a 7¼. He was rocking at least an eight and a half. He didn't have a real head so much as a vaguely head-shaped prize-winning potato.

 

[flicker]

Game of Shadows is weak. Mark Fairinu WADA, just doesn't understand our need for fine baseball excellence. Like I have always said, clean the olympics first, and then do the housekeeping in pro-sports.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Game of Shadows is weak. Mark Fairinu WADA, just doesn't understand our need for fine baseball excellence. Like I have always said, clean the olympics first, and then do the housekeeping in pro-sports.

The pros are in the Olympics - in more sports than just cycling. This needs a bit more than once-every-four-years session of house-keeping. Besides, the Olys more than anyone want *** performances (you can refresh your memory on your own time - start with Samaranch, and work towards Verbruggen).

 

[darkcloud]

I posted that because Bonds body has changed dramatically over the years. No explanation others than drug use. Of course, I am not an M.D. I could be wrong. I frequently am.

 

[Yeahright]

I'm not American, or a baseball fan, so this anaysis really jumped out at me. Switch 'baseball' for 'cycling', and you could've found it in any cycling publication...

From the ESPN article:

Wednesday's verdict in the Bonds trial is confusing and in many ways unsatisfying, but it reinforces baseball's terrible truth: the steroid era is the most discredited period in the history of American professional sports. The apologists will continue to try to laugh the era off as hyperbole, suggesting that players have been looking for an edge since there were eight balls in an at-bat and pitchers threw underhand. Or they will continue to criticize the government for wasting taxpayer's time and money on the Bonds prosecution, or try to use the nonsensical argument that players who used uppers in the 1960s were no different than the players injecting themselves with female fertility drugs.

Oh I dunno, the steroid era gave us a lot more home runs, never a bad thing in a game that is like watching paint dry.

 

[Paco_P]

I wonder are the fanboys as bad as the ones we have^^

I was going to say - they're worse because they're Americans - but then I caught myself.

Probably they aren't, because, as incredible as this may be to believe, Bonds is less likeable than Lance.

 

[the delgados]

"Probably they aren't, because, as incredible as this may be to believe, Bonds is less likeable than Lance."

Very true. And after years of investigation and millions of dollars spent, they managed to get Bonds on one count.

Consider that the vast majority of the American public thinks Armstrong is a hero.

Good luck finding 12 people willing to convict.

 

[kurtinsc]

"Probably they aren't, because, as incredible as this may be to believe, Bonds is less likeable than Lance."

Very true. And after years of investigation and millions of dollars spent, they managed to get Bonds on one count.

Consider that the vast majority of the American public thinks Armstrong is a hero.

Good luck finding 12 people willing to convict.

That count wasn't even for directly lying.

He was convicted of obstruction of justice for being evasive in a rambling answer to a question in front of the grand jury.


While I think there's little doubt he doped (look at the before and after picture I posted earlier), I do scratch my head a bit at the conviction on that particular charge. I thought convicting him of lying under oath was actually more reasonable then obstruction of justice due to a rambling incoherrent answer to a grand jury question. Seemed to me that rather then going to jail for that, someone at the time should have said: "That's nice Barry. Now answer the question."

 

[sagard]

Oh I dunno, the steroid era gave us a lot more home runs, never a bad thing in a game that is like watching paint dry.

Cyclingfans who wait five hours for any interesting action should not call baseball boring.

I like them both.