The latest metroplitan horror

[rhubroma]

Only the scene changes, the characters and the victims. This time 71 hit, 12 dead, 30 still hospitalized.

It's a story we'll be telling again, because 400 million revolvers, pistols, automatic weapons, assault rifles, machine guns, tear gas bombs are in the hands of private US citizens; which don't threaten, but guarantee, what not even the most anti-American terrorist would hope for in his wildest of dreams. No foreign power, no sect of religious fanatics, has killed as many Americans as Americans themselves have with their own arms.

As insane as James Holmes is, as demented as the other hundreds of gunmen who periodically spray with bullets children, teachers, shopping mall clients, passers-by; the damage that he would have been able to do if he hadn't had a veritable arsenal at his disposition would have been minimal. "Guns don't kill, people do" has always been the response by the NRA, forgetting, however, that pistols and rifles are those things which in the military jargon are called "force multipliers." Means that multiply the lethal effects of one's intentions. The means, therefore, in such cases, are the message.

Perhaps Holmes failure as a neuroscience student caused his folly? Perhaps. Though what American citizens should be asking themselves is: how on earth does a student acquire two assault rifles, two automatic pistols, explosives and tear gas bombs? Answer: at the store.

It is the point of intersection between individual folly, lobbyism, commercial interests and a deep-rooted culture in the chromosomes of a nation that still hasn't given up a by now rather puerile, and barbaric, Revolutionary War/Far West expansionism ethos. From King George of England and independence, to Colt, Winchester, Smith Wesson, Browning to conquer the rest of the nation, has now become the crucible of violence in which the lives of an average 31,347 victims each year are consumed, with another +100,000 more injured.

It's time for America to adjust itself to the other OECD nations, where the legal sale of arms is strictly regulated, or else prohibited. By contrast the number of US States which allow citizens to carry concealed weapons has increased to 41 of 50. On eBay the site "guns" has supplied 368,956 firearms to its requests, an astounding number that stupefies considering how much Americans worry about foreign terrorism. When it's actually America itself that is the worst slaughterer of its own citizens. In the words of the immortal Pogo: "We have seen the enemy, and it is us."

 

[Anonymous]

Only the scene changes, the characters and the victims. This time 71 hit, 12 dead, 30 still hospitalized.

It's a story we'll be telling again, because 400 million revolvers, pistols, automatic weapons, assault rifles, machine guns, tear gas bombs are in the hands of private US citizens; which don't threaten, but guarantee, what not even the most anti-American terrorist would hope for in his wildest of dreams. No foreign power, no sect of religious fanatics, has killed as many Americans as Americans themselves have with their own arms.

As insane as James Holmes is, as demented as the other hundreds of gunmen who periodically spray with bullets children, teachers, shopping mall clients, passers-by; the damage that he would have been able to do if he hadn't had a veritable arsenal at his disposition would have been minimal. "Guns don't kill, people do" has always been the response by the NRA, forgetting, however, that pistols and rifles are those things which in the military jargon are called "force multipliers." Means that multiply the lethal effects of one's intentions. The means, therefore, in such cases, are the message.

Perhaps Holmes failure as a neuroscience student caused his folly? Perhaps. Though what American citizens should be asking themselves is: how on earth does a student acquire two assault rifles, two automatic pistols, explosives and tear gas bombs? Answer: at the store.

It is the point of intersection between individual folly, lobbyism, commercial interests and a deep-rooted culture in the chromosomes of a nation that still hasn't given up a by now rather puerile, and barbaric, Revolutionary War/Far West expansionism ethos. From King George of England and independence, to Colt, Winchester, Smith Wesson, Browning to conquer the rest of the nation, has now become the crucible of violence in which the lives of an average 31,347 victims each year are consumed, with another +100,000 more injured.

It's time for America to adjust itself to the other OECD nations, where the legal sale of arms is strictly regulated, or else prohibited. By contrast the number of US States which allow citizens to carry concealed weapons has increased to 41 of 50. On eBay the site "guns" has supplied 368,956 firearms to its requests, an astounding number that stupefies considering how much Americans worry about foreign terrorism. When it's actually America itself that is the worst slaughterer of its own citizens. In the words of the immortal Pogo: "We have seen the enemy, and it is us."

Horrible tragedy. I listened to the presser given by the Aurora Chief of Police. One could clearly tell he, as well of all the first responders, was devastated and heartbroken. The families of the lost are destroyed. Just senseless.

As for your anti gun rant... According to the chief, all of the weapons and munitions were purchased recently and legally, not that it matters a wit. This guy planned this and would have done it gun laws or not.

There are laws against murder in the first degree and yet, somehow, the murderers continue on. Just as they will when the knee-jerking is over and the gun laws are tightened.

Yes, bann the guns but treat humanely and rehabilitate the animal. After all, the guns did it. I find it an odd way of thinking but you have plenty of company.

 

[krebs303]

The USA should outlaw guns to stop the violence. That's how we do it in Mexico.

 

[Race Radio]

Almost every home in Switzerland has a gun, but these events seldom happen there. Gun crime is low there same with many other countries with high gun ownership.

The issue is more of a societal one. The lack of support services, both state and familial, allows these nuts to roam the streets with their issues un-addressed.

I used to think it was all the guns fault but the fact is we have a society that breeds these freaks

 

[knewcleardaze]

In America, you're allowed to have guns and you're allowed to be crazy.

 

[ElChingon]

If this is going to be about guns or the law of guns then merge it to the politics thread or create a gun thread.

 

[rhubroma]

The comparison with Switzerland is a misguided one. Different history, different people. The Swiss are an Alpine folk, of huntsmen and the country has always remained historically neutral. The gun culture there is thus grounded upon a historical dialectic between nature and the surrounding nation states, though has always remained a native tradition and has nothing to do with the commercial interests and culture of violence that presently exists in the US. One could compare Switzerland with Austria, but not the US. Besides we don't witness the various Columbines in Switzerland.

In the US I'd say there simply exists a culture of violence, combined with an increasing tendency toward destruction and prepotency, for which the commercialization of fire arms is a recipe for disaster, as all the evidence shows.

Instead of mentioning Switzerland, why don't we look at the examples of all the other civilized countries where gun crimes are infinitely lower, simple because one can't go to the store and buy an arsenal? The US is simply doped on guns and has a lot of ill-formed and confused (psychotic) people. How, given the repeated tragedies, can this not be anything but clear.

This seems to me the most rational approach.

 

[rhubroma]

The USA should outlaw guns to stop the violence. That's how we do it in Mexico.

To bad the Mexican cartel buys US guns, form money it has earned from selling drugs to US citizens, to then kill Mexicans.

The so called "War Against Drugs" and the so called right "to bear arms" is a hypocrisy that knows no bounds.

 

[rhubroma]

Horrible tragedy. I listened to the presser given by the Aurora Chief of Police. One could clearly tell he, as well of all the first responders, was devastated and heartbroken. The families of the lost are destroyed. Just senseless.

As for your anti gun rant... According to the chief, all of the weapons and munitions were purchased recently and legally, not that it matters a wit. This guy planned this and would have done it gun laws or not.

There are laws against murder in the first degree and yet, somehow, the murderers continue on. Just as they will when the knee-jerking is over and the gun laws are tightened.

Yes, bann the guns but treat humanely and rehabilitate the animal. After all, the guns did it. I find it an odd way of thinking but you have plenty of company.

Your pretzel logic here is dumbfounding.

 

[Race Radio]

The comparison with Switzerland is a misguided one. Different history, different people. The Swiss are an Alpine folk, of huntsmen and the country has always remained historically neutral. The gun culture there is thus grounded upon a historical dialectic between nature and the surrounding nation states, though has always remained a native tradition and has nothing to do with the commercial interests and culture of violence that presently exists in the US. One could compare Switzerland with Austria, but not the US. Besides we don't witness the various Columbines in Switzerland.

In the US I'd say there simply exists a culture of violence, combined with an increasing tendency toward destruction and prepotency, for which the commercialization of fire arms is a recipe for disaster, as all the evidence shows.

Instead of mentioning Switzerland, why don't we look at the examples of all the other civilized countries where gun crimes are infinitely lower, simple because one can't go to the store and buy an arsenal. The US is simply doped on guns and has a lot of ill-formed and confused (psychotic) people. How, given the repeated tragedies, can this not be anything but clear.

This seems to me the most rational approach.

It appears we agree. The challenge is with our culture and society.

I am not a member of the NRA, do not even own a gun. I believe in some increased gun control. But I know that reducing gun rights does not get to the heart of the issue.

I picked Switzerland because i used to live there. These events do indeed happen there. 14 people were killed in Zug in 2001 by a nut.

 

[Rip:30]

why_arent_there_more_auroras?

I think there are many more disenfranchised and or insane people that would like to do something like this but just don't the have the courage fortunately. Even without access to legal or illegal guns there's always going to be cheap ways to make explosives that can do just as much damage. The fact that the whole country gives these *******s so much personal exposure though massive national media coverage really doesn't help either since attention is clearly part of his MO.

 

[patricknd]

Only the scene changes, the characters and the victims. This time 71 hit, 12 dead, 30 still hospitalized.

It's a story we'll be telling again, because 400 million revolvers, pistols, automatic weapons, assault rifles, machine guns, tear gas bombs are in the hands of private US citizens; which don't threaten, but guarantee, what not even the most anti-American terrorist would hope for in his wildest of dreams. No foreign power, no sect of religious fanatics, has killed as many Americans as Americans themselves have with their own arms.

As insane as James Holmes is, as demented as the other hundreds of gunmen who periodically spray with bullets children, teachers, shopping mall clients, passers-by; the damage that he would have been able to do if he hadn't had a veritable arsenal at his disposition would have been minimal. "Guns don't kill, people do" has always been the response by the NRA, forgetting, however, that pistols and rifles are those things which in the military jargon are called "force multipliers." Means that multiply the lethal effects of one's intentions. The means, therefore, in such cases, are the message.

Perhaps Holmes failure as a neuroscience student caused his folly? Perhaps. Though what American citizens should be asking themselves is: how on earth does a student acquire two assault rifles, two automatic pistols, explosives and tear gas bombs? Answer: at the store.

It is the point of intersection between individual folly, lobbyism, commercial interests and a deep-rooted culture in the chromosomes of a nation that still hasn't given up a by now rather puerile, and barbaric, Revolutionary War/Far West expansionism ethos. From King George of England and independence, to Colt, Winchester, Smith Wesson, Browning to conquer the rest of the nation, has now become the crucible of violence in which the lives of an average 31,347 victims each year are consumed, with another +100,000 more injured.

It's time for America to adjust itself to the other OECD nations, where the legal sale of arms is strictly regulated, or else prohibited. By contrast the number of US States which allow citizens to carry concealed weapons has increased to 41 of 50. On eBay the site "guns" has supplied 368,956 firearms to its requests, an astounding number that stupefies considering how much Americans worry about foreign terrorism. When it's actually America itself that is the worst slaughterer of its own citizens. In the words of the immortal Pogo: "We have seen the enemy, and it is us."

timothy mcveigh used fertilizer to kill. i buy and use fertilizer responsibly every spring. i have a nice green lawn and he killed hundreds. the people who want weapons will find something to use. they always do.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Horrible and senseless.
I thought right away about my own boys who go to the theater often
How those parents must feel.

I dislike guns, but don't think the answer is in laws or government.
Remember the gas attacks by a crazy in Japan...the sad thing is there are just out of control and sick people in our world.

I feel so sorry for those devastated families that lost their loved ones.
Just awful.

Watching Tejay dedicate his jersey today for the victims brought tears to my eyes...so very close to our home...

 

[rhubroma]

It appears we agree. The challenge is with our culture and society.

I am not a member of the NRA, do not even own a gun. I believe in some increased gun control. But I know that reducing gun rights does not get to the heart of the issue.

I picked Switzerland because i used to live there. These events do indeed happen there. 14 people were killed in Zug in 2001 by a nut.

Your last point only reaffirms the urgency to limit firearms accessibility, not liberate them. Then there is the Norwegien Breivik. But these seem to be relatively isolated incidents connected to a psychosis that has destabilized Western society at large, which may in part have to do with the cult of sensationalism and perverse craving for celebritydom our mass media driven culture has promoted.

At any rate, in typical American fashion, the scale and frequency with which such horrific tragedies occurs in the US (you know we've always had a propensity for doing things bigger, more extraordinary and ultimately more ridiculous) is appalling and grotesque.

I don't understand why this being hung up with the "right to bear arms" in this day and age. When the constitution was contemplated, America had just come out of a war of cessation against a much greater power. What has that mentality got to do with the America of today though? It has become a colossal commercial enterprise, no more. Or have we such doubt in our democratic institutions that we fear a military coup - al là Pinochet or something?

The fact is that if arming yourself to the teeth were not possible and having guns were extremely difficult in most situations, then incidents of gun violence and death would go dramatically down. Or do we think that providing easy access to firearms to everyone is a logical means to prevent a 24 year-old immature, frustrated psychopath from going into the local cinema and opening up his weapons on the crowd?

The commercialization of firearms, combined with a population that in many cases is all too ill-equipped to control its most savage and rage full instincts (in the underdeveloped civic sense), has created a situation in which the US has become a series of loaded guns just waiting to cause (inevitably) the next massacre.

Yet for the legislation to change, the culture must. But with the powerful NRA lobbying against change and prevailing, "take justice into your own hands," Rambo mentality, all I think we will see is more and more events like this one.

 

[rhubroma]

timothy mcveigh used fertilizer to kill. i buy and use fertilizer responsibly every spring. i have a nice green lawn and he killed hundreds. the people who want weapons will find something to use. they always do.

What the hell has fertilizer got to do with guns in this regard?

So one McVeigh is an effective argument against the "ineffectiveness" of any legislation to limit access to firearms?

How many deaths are caused by fertilizer each year?

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Aurora is the @ss end of Denver, it's no surprise to me that a neuroscience grad living there went crazy and shot up the place. The police could probably round up a heard of lunatics just like this guy all within Aurora, it's basically a ghetto suburb.

 

[knewcleardaze]

why_arent_there_more_auroras?

I think there are many more disenfranchised and or insane people that would like to do something like this but just don't the have the courage fortunately. Even without access to legal or illegal guns there's always going to be cheap ways to make explosives that can do just as much damage. The fact that the whole country gives these *******s so much personal exposure though massive national media coverage really doesn't help either since attention is clearly part of his MO.

The nonstop coverage of these episodes I'm certain play a part in this madness. It's unfortunate the media can not just report what happened without having to sensationalize a man that has obviously lost touch with reality.

 

[RedheadDane]

Part of me would like to know what the **** is going on inside the heads of the people doing these sorts of things!

Part of me... really don't wanna know!

 

[Altitude]

timothy mcveigh used fertilizer to kill. i buy and use fertilizer responsibly every spring. i have a nice green lawn and he killed hundreds. the people who want weapons will find something to use. they always do.

Yes, the intended use of fertilizer is to take care of your lawn - completely harmless. What could possibly be the use of owning an assault rifle, other than to kill? Why should objects which have no purpose other than to harm and kill be made readily available to a population largely comprised of irresponsible people?

 

[knewcleardaze]

Yes, the intended use of fertilizer is to take care of your lawn - completely harmless. What could possibly be the use of owning an assault rifle, other than to kill? Why should objects which have no purpose other than to harm and kill be made readily available to a population largely comprised of irresponsible people?

Financial gain, perhaps?

 

[patricknd]

What the hell has fertilizer got to do with guns in this regard?

So one McVeigh is an effective argument against the "ineffectiveness" of any legislation to limit access to firearms?

How many deaths are caused by fertilizer each year?

i'm pointing out that force multipliers are readily available to anyone that wants to use them, be they guns, bombs etc. gun laws are bandages, they do nothing to address the culture that produces the violence. mass shootings like this are the tiniest percentage of the murders committed, but they of course get the press and the reactions like this thread. where is this thread every weekend, when the inner cities are shooting, cutting and beating each other to death? we have a "gangsta" culture that glorifies violence and death, but it's easy for us to stay out of "those people's" neighborhoods, so we just don't talk about it. until someone shoots up a theater, school, or mall most people are strangely quiet on the subject. our video games, our movies, our sports for god's sake, glorify violence. i personally think that it is too easy to purchase guns and ammunition, but thinking that tougher laws is going to stop the killing, or even make a noticeable difference, is a mistake. man's inhumanity to man didn't start with the invention of the firearm, and it won't end if we get rid of every single gun.

 

[hfer07]

The US is simply doped on guns and has a lot of ill-formed and confused (psychotic) people. How, given the repeated tragedies, can this not be anything but clear.

+1000
Gun reduction & tougher restrictions will not prevent the wrong people to acquire them to commit such atrocities-but sadly is the very own constitution that empowers the citizens to incline the balance towards their use-let alone all the garbage thrown at them in the form of advertising, movies/tv & the continuing brain-washing of the "war of terror" that this country has adopted since 9/11......

as you wisely mentioned- is the psychological & mental health aspect behind this mass murder what should concern the most to this society, so they can realize afterwards that "guns & weapons" aren't the absolute answer to provide "safety", but rather a tool to create chaos & misery.....

 

[rhubroma]

i'm pointing out that force multipliers are readily available to anyone that wants to use them, be they guns, bombs etc. gun laws are bandages, they do nothing to address the culture that produces the violence. mass shootings like this are the tiniest percentage of the murders committed, but they of course get the press and the reactions like this thread. where is this thread every weekend, when the inner cities are shooting, cutting and beating each other to death? we have a "gangsta" culture that glorifies violence and death, but it's easy for us to stay out of "those people's" neighborhoods, so we just don't talk about it. until someone shoots up a theater, school, or mall most people are strangely quiet on the subject. our video games, our movies, our sports for god's sake, glorify violence. i personally think that it is too easy to purchase guns and ammunition, but thinking that tougher laws is going to stop the killing, or even make a noticeable difference, is a mistake. man's inhumanity to man didn't start with the invention of the firearm, and it won't end if we get rid of every single gun.

Practically everything you said has validated my point. You are aware of that, aren't you? If it is utopian to eliminate every single gun, how about regulating it more severely to bring the appalling statistics down? Statistically, look at the case, where such strict regulations exist, deaths by firearms are relatively low. My God, wonder why!?

Laws now may not make a difference, though the mindset that has led to the current, legal, situation, has obviously proved disastrous. The firearm has never been commercialized to this degree, nor so sensationalized, nor so engrained in the culture.

Well then, we might as well avoid going to the cinema as much as Afghanistan. Too many people are being murdered by firearms, because there are too many firearms in circulation.

 

[patricknd]

Yes, the intended use of fertilizer is to take care of your lawn - completely harmless. What could possibly be the use of owning an assault rifle, other than to kill? Why should objects which have no purpose other than to harm and kill be made readily available to a population largely comprised of irresponsible people?

largely comprised of irresposible people? hell's bells, with 400 millions guns and a poulation largely comprised of irresponsible people it's a wonder there's anyone left. since i've never shot anyone am i one of the few, the proud, the responsible? can you give me a letter of recomendation based on that? i'm sure it will come in handy if i decide to refinance my house, or buy a gun.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Almost every home in Switzerland has a gun, but these events seldom happen there. Gun crime is low there same with many other countries with high gun ownership.

The issue is more of a societal one.

Agree with all you wrote. Canada also has as many guns per-capita as the United States, if not more.