The most dominant TT performance in history (and why it was stage 16 of the 2023 TdF)

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there are many reasons not to use that as a comparison. many.

however, it was largely flat. speeds much higher. harder to make big gaps on.

so 3 minutes to De Las Cuevas and 4 to Bugno and Lemond is crazier as far as I am concerned.
No, check the length of the TT. In 1992 Indurain won in 1:19:31. That’s 2.5 times longer. Do the sums.
Vingegaard pulled his gaps in just 32 minutes !
 
No, check the length of the TT. In 1992 Indurain won in 1:19:31. That’s 2.5 times longer. Do the sums.
Vingegaard pulled his gaps in just 32 minutes !

i hear you.

but the speeds matter too. harder to make a difference the higher the speed everyone is going at.

if the average speed is 50+ km/h then it is much harder to make a huge difference than when the average is 35 km/h.

one of the reasons i feel they should control technology or go back to road bikes in TTs (never happen). but if you have Remco doing 57 km/hr he will not make as much time difference on an opponent doing 55 than if he is doing 37 and the opponent is doing 35.
 
Yeh, wasn’t sure about Hinault - did he crush the field worse than stage 16? Interested to see some numbers?

he did some outrageous differences, but they were often over longer distances.

Maertens in 1976 also crushed it on the first completely flat TT.

Stage 3: Sunday, June 27, Le Touquet Paris Plage 37 km individual time trial
  1. Freddy Maertens: 47min 8sec
  2. Michel Pollentier @ 1min 37sec
  3. Ruy Schuiten @ 2min 1sec
  4. Jesus Manzaneque @ 2min 12sec
  5. Ferdi Bracke @ 2min 23sec
  6. Bert Pronk @ 2min 28sec
  7. Jean-Pierre Danguillaume @ 2min 39sec
  8. Ronny De Witte @ 2min 41sec
  9. Hennie Kuiper @ 2mn 57sec
  10. Raymond Poulidor @ 2min 58sec

no doubt about it, Vingo put in an incredible performance. just not sure that others haven't done something at least similar in history.
 
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How hard were the stages raced in 76 and 92 before the TT occurred? Just a quick wiki search said the previous stages were TT, flat, hilly, TTT, and plain (whatever that means) for both years though I don’t know their profiles.
Since Vinge has the benefit of hard previous stages, the stages were all ridden very hard, and it being the third week. Though his performance came after a rest day, Indurian had 4 plain stages and Maertens 2 flat stages before their TTs.
 
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Yes, but get your head around the fact he isn’t a typical time trialists build - like Indurain, Cancellara etc. He is 60Kg according to Wiki? Crazy is an understatement.
The course was a tactical dream for anyone that knew it well enough to stay off the brakes. Jonas' descending, on the bars and not on the brakes was amazingly calm. I haven't seen the whole footage but he seemed to confidently rail every corner and lose almost no rolling momentum. Few timetrials that have this variety of challenges get ridden well by anyone at each transition. I'd be curious to know what JV staff and Jonas could disclose on preparation, visualization exercises, etc. Great GS ski racers are experts at the critical course memory by they don't have to deal with the length of time or the level of energy management. It's like he had a race simulator for this course to prepare....
 
The course was a tactical dream for anyone that knew it well enough to stay off the brakes. Jonas' descending, on the bars and not on the brakes was amazingly calm. I haven't seen the whole footage but he seemed to confidently rail every corner and lose almost no rolling momentum. Few timetrials that have this variety of challenges get ridden well by anyone at each transition. I'd be curious to know what JV staff and Jonas could disclose on preparation, visualization exercises, etc. Great GS ski racers are experts at the critical course memory by they don't have to deal with the length of time or the level of energy management. It's like he had a race simulator for this course to prepare....
For all the talk by some, including myself, about TJV’s poor ITT performances this year, their GC leaders absolutely nailed their crux ITTs in the two GTs so far. Roglic’s ITT is of course overshadowed by this monstrous performance, plus the dropped chain dominated the narrative, but both he and JV were 100% focused and prepared.
 
How hard were the stages raced in 76 and 92 before the TT occurred? Just a quick wiki search said the previous stages were TT, flat, hilly, TTT, and plain (whatever that means) for both years though I don’t know their profiles.
Since Vinge has the benefit of hard previous stages, the stages were all ridden very hard, and it being the third week. Though his performance came after a rest day, Indurian had 4 plain stages and Maertens 2 flat stages before their TTs.

How are you suggesting this would affect performances and time gaps?

Harder stages before would seem to increase chances of big gaps as riders are in different states of tiredness. Pog was definitely starting to be tired. Then again, they were just coming off a rest day. In 1976, it was early in the TDF, so everyone is fresher (?). In 1992, they did the Pyrenees very early, then a whole bunch of flat stages before Luxembourg TT. What sequence increases the chances of big gaps, not just superlative performances? My inkling would be after a bunch of tough stages, the gaps would likely be larger, no?
 
How are you suggesting this would affect performances and time gaps?

Harder stages before would seem to increase chances of big gaps as riders are in different states of tiredness. Pog was definitely starting to be tired. Then again, they were just coming off a rest day. In 1976, it was early in the TDF, so everyone is fresher (?). In 1992, they did the Pyrenees very early, then a whole bunch of flat stages before Luxembourg TT. What sequence increases the chances of big gaps, not just superlative performances? My inkling would be after a bunch of tough stages, the gaps would likely be larger, no?
That Vinge should be more fatigued as well compared to the other two TTs being compared. These three are all crazy TTs and Vinge did his after two very hard weeks of racing when he was expending energy all the way to the minimum 1 KM to go banner at the front on every stage. In theory Vinge should look tired like his competitors but went out and looked like he showed up to the prologue.

Then if he’s able to do this kind of performance in the third week, imagine the watts and time he could have done if it was the first stage.
 
How are you suggesting this would affect performances and time gaps?

Harder stages before would seem to increase chances of big gaps as riders are in different states of tiredness. Pog was definitely starting to be tired. Then again, they were just coming off a rest day. In 1976, it was early in the TDF, so everyone is fresher (?). In 1992, they did the Pyrenees very early, then a whole bunch of flat stages before Luxembourg TT. What sequence increases the chances of big gaps, not just superlative performances? My inkling would be after a bunch of tough stages, the gaps would likely be larger, no?
Where are the effects of fatigue on Vingegaard in the third week though? Assuming that relative gaps between Vinge and the peloton could be justified by fatigue, this still doesn't explain Vinge's performance in absolute values (w/kg) (which of course goes beyond OP's point I admit)
 
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That Vinge should be more fatigued as well compared to the other two TTs being compared. These three are all crazy TTs and Vinge did his after two very hard weeks of racing when he was expending energy all the way to the minimum 1 KM to go banner at the front on every stage. In theory Vinge should look tired like his competitors but went out and looked like he showed up to the prologue.

Then if he’s able to do this kind of performance in the third week, imagine the watts and time he could have done if it was the first stage.
Where are the effects of fatigue on Vingegaard in the third week though? Assuming that relative gaps between Vinge and the peloton could be justified by fatigue, this still doesn't explain Vinge's performance in absolute values (w/kg) (which of course goes beyond OP's point I admit)

but is it not all relative?

vingo's TT in the third week demonstrates that he has better recovery than the others, not that he would have made these differences in a prologue (as everyone would be equally fresh).

i have no doubt that he is not as strong as he was at the start of the TDF. it is just that others are more diminished.

lemond often said that he knew that he could make the difference in the third week, when others dropped off more than he did.

ultimately, i am glad in a way, as the true test of a GT is primarily recovery over three weeks. when route designers try to lessen that effect by shortening the stages, etc... they are altering that test.

kudos to JV for making the racing as hard as possible throughout (as they did in 2022). while Pog was no doubt compromised by an imperfect prep, we literally had a real-time visual of his decline from his stage win when he achieved the greatest separation, then to ever-decreasing margins, then Vingo being dropped but clawing back to his wheel, then not being able to gap Vingo at all, then a strong TT but one where he did not look fully himself, looked tired. and then finally a complete collapse.

separate thought: for those complaining that now the third week is "boring", I say this: what does one remember from most any TDF? The exploits and the dramatic collapses (and the personalities, for sure). That is what is seared into our memories. what does anyone remember of the 1992 TDF? Luxembourg and perhaps Sestiere. in 2022, no doubt it is Granon, both for its epic-ness, but also for Pog's surprising collapse. Same goes for 2023, I would suggest: Vingo's ITT exploit and Pog's dramatic "I'm dead" moment.

I often think that those who claim to want things close until the last day are saying that because they have a personal stake/favorite in the game and they want that favorite to stay in play as long as possible. when that favorite drops off earlier than they wanted, they complain that the "route" was badly planned, that it is "boring" because it is no longer a nail-biter. I have absolutely no favorite in this race (well, Pinot, perhaps, and I don't really like UAE), no ardent favorite anyway. And I even find the personalities a little "meh". However, I will remember the ITT and Pog's "I'm dead".
 
but is it not all relative?

vingo's TT in the third week demonstrates that he has better recovery than the others, not that he would have made these differences in a prologue (as everyone would be equally fresh).
I didn’t mean his time to the others, but his overall time it took to finish the course. If it was a prologue with no fatigue for him could he have done a 30-31 minute time?
 
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