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Last year on a Danish podcast, Vingegaard said he had been doing stretching exercises to improve in the TT.
So there you go.
So there you go.
I don't know. I feel like Monte Grappa is a perfect example for why the metric does work. A ridiculously hard TT (like Monte Grappa) will always produce huge time gaps. Quintana didn't have to be particularly dominant for that.I think it just means that taking what's essentially jsut a distribution of 2-10 isn't a very good metric in the first place. They could all be very good but very clustered together and it makes the performance look much better by this metric. On the other hand, you just need one strong competitor to make a TT look pretty mid. It makes Monte Grappa look absolutely pedestrian when it wasn't.
Selecting for relative differences instead of absoltue differences inherently makes it quite bad IMO. It's just too easy to find ratios that are higher without them being TTs of this magnitude.I don't know. I feel like Monte Grappa is a perfect example for why it does work. A ridiculously hard TT (like Monte Grappa) will always produce huge time gaps. Quintana didn't have to be particularly dominant for that.
Yeah ok, sorry for not satisfying the scientific standard of the cyclingnews forum. I'll improve on it in my phd thesis.Selecting for relative differences instead of absoltue differences inherently makes it quite bad IMO. It's just too easy to find ratios that are higher without them being TTs of this magnitude.
Maybe you wanna take some weighted average of s/km or s/min lost divided by position or whatever.
Neither a need to apologize nor to be so defensive.Yeah ok, sorry for not satisfying the scientific standard of the cyclingnews forum. I'll improve on it in my phd thesis.
That‘s a 1.5 hour+ TT, yet the gap to 3rd is barely bigger than in today‘s 35 minute demonstration.Pretty similar domination by Hinault in 1979
Stage 15: Friday, July 13, Evian - Morzine Avoriaz Hill Climb
Major Ascent: Avoriaz![]()
- Bernard Hinault: 1hr 33min 35sec
- Joop Zoetemelk @ 2min 37sec
- Joaquin Agostinho @ 3min 15sec
- Gery Verlinden @ 4min 6sec
- Lucien van Impe @ 4min 11sec
- Giovanni Battaglin @ 4min 39sec
- Hennie Kuiper @ 4min 48sec
- Knut Knudsen @ 5min 13sec
- Yves Hézard @ 5min 16sec
- Didi Thurau @ 5min 34sec
And in 1978 he put 4’10” into his eventual second Zoetemelk (who had been wearing yellow). However Zoetemelk was not second in the ITT.
This was also after a rest day, on top of everything else that has been brought up.That was the same for Carapaz in 2020 on LPdBF. Remember, he would have won the KOM jersey had he won the final climb, so he took it easy the whole flat and then went balls out on the climb. But he didn't even finish in the top 6 (it was a Cat 1) and with Pogacar winning all 10 points Pog won the KOM jersey by 8 points over Carapaz.
Thanks for doing this. It's a lot to read, if you have a moment, could you just put column headers in there for the values? Would help me understand the data at a glance.Yeah, we all saw it. Jonas Vingegaard dominated this TT like nobody has dominated a TT since...well...since when exactly? If you want an answer to that you came to the wrong post, but I'll write some other stuff instead.
So what I did is I tried to come up with a metric showing how dominant a TT performance was, which I will call dominance index because why not. I divided the gap between the first two riders by the gap between the first and the 10th rider. So we basically get the portion of the spread of the top 10 that lies between the front two. If we get a dominance index of 0.1 that means the gap between 1st and 2nd is 10% of the gap between 1st and 10th. A higher dominance index means a more dominant win. Btw, I just as well could have divided the gap between the first two and the winning time, that would probably give you similar results. I felt comparing time gaps is more telling but you are free to disagree about that.
Because I don't have infinite time and am generally not overly skilled in working with data I only looked at TdF ITT's in the post Armstrong era, so from 2006 forward. Feel free to look further back, I'd be especially interested in a comparison with how much Indurain dominated TT's. So, what are the results from 2006 to 2022:
TdF 22 2 19 108 0,175926TdF 22 1 5 20 0,25TdF 21 1 19 60 0,316667TdF 21 2 21 81 0,259259TdF 20 81 174 0,465517TdF 19 14 61 0,229508TdF 18 1 83 0,012048TdF 17 1 5 16 0,3125TdF 17 2 1 37 0,027027TdF 16 1 63 144 0,4375TdF 16 2 21 70 0,3TdF 15 5 32 0,15625TdF 14 99 178 0,55618TdF 13 1 12 112 0,107143TdF 13 2 9 111 0,081081TdF 12 1 7 15 0,466667TdF 12 2 35 129 0,271318TdF 12 3 76 185 0,410811TdF 11 7 128 0,054688TdF 10 1 10 35 0,285714TdF 10 2 17 218 0,077982TdF 09 1 18 40 0,45TdF 09 2 3 62 0,048387TdF 08 1 18 47 0,382979TdF 08 2 21 141 0,148936TdF 07 1 13 32 0,40625TdF 07 2 74 159 0,465409TdF 07 3 51 170 0,3TdF 06 1 1 9 0,111111TdF 06 2 60 104 0,576923TdF 06 3 41 241 0,170124
Here you have the results of 31 TTs. In the first column I somewhat clumsily named the stage (if there is a 1 at the end that means we are talking about the 1st TT of that Tour, etc), the 2nd column is the gap between 1st and 2nd, the 2nd column the gap between 1st and 10th and the 3rd column the dominance index. That's the column we care about. As you can see results between 0 and 0.5 are somewhat common, with 2 results reaching the 0.5 barrier, but none surpassing 0.6. Those two wins were by Tony Martin in 2014 and Serhiy Honchar in 2006.
So, how does Vingegaard's performance match up to this?
TdF 23 98 201 0,487562
Pretty good. Vingegaard's TT is in 3rd place, beating out legendary TTs like for example Pogacar's win at LPdBF in 2020. That's probably the obvious comparison to make and indeed the two results look similarly dominant. In fact what motivated me to make this post was someone saying that just like in 2020, one rider dominated while the 2nd favorite had a disappointing performance. Except, was Pogacar actually that disappointing? Let's pretend for a second Vingegaard hadn't ridden today and instead Pogacar won in front of Van Aert. How dominant would that win have been?
TdF 23 (without Vingegaard) 73 118 0,618644
Yes you are seeing this right. The dominance index is 0.62. Without Vingegaard there is a good argument to be made that this would have been the most dominant TdF TT in the post Armstrong era. More dominant than anything Cancellara or Martin ever produced. More dominant than his own infamously dominant LPdBF TT in 2020. Way more dominant in fact. No other result comes close to 0.62.
But that of course makes you wonder. What would Vingegaards dominance index have been without Pogacar. Brace yourself:
TdF 23 (without Pogacar) 171 211 0,810427
0.81! That is so completely off the charts. This means that the gap between Vingegaard and Van Aert was over 5 times larger than the gap between Van Aert and 11th place. And btw, in case you are wondering what happens to Martin's and Honchar's wins if you exclude the 2nd placed rider, the answer is, not much. Honchar's index increases from 0.577 to 0.587 and Martin's index from 0.556 to 0.591, so both of them remain under the 0.6 mark. Vingegaards dominance index increasing to over 0.8 is completely bonkers.
So what's the takeaway? Was this the most dominant TT performance in history? Probably not. The title was clickbait all along. But I still found it interesting to somehow quantify how incredible todays performance was.
It is actually gold.The first graph here is great.![]()
Vingegaard Destroys Tadej Pogačar in Week 3 | Tour de France 2023 Stages 16 & 17 - Lanterne Rouge
Jonas Vingegaard performed exceptionally well at the beginning of this third week of the Tour de France, winning the time-trial on Stage 16 with one of the greatest performances of all time, and on the Queen Stage the next day being the fastest from the GC group. In this article we will take a...lanternerouge.com
It was more dominant than Indurain 1992 Luxembourg - because in 92 it was a 60km TT for similar gaps to the rest. I didn’t follow cycling much before then. If stage 16 wasn’t the most dominant in history then surely it wasn’t far off?Most dominant recently most probably yes, but in history , most probably not , but it's impossible to stay.
Yes, but get your head around the fact he isn’t a typical time trialists build - like Indurain, Cancellara etc. He is 60Kg according to Wiki? Crazy is an understatement.To put so much time per km into Pog, who did a freaking great TT, is just absolutely absurd. Not just the most dominant TT i've seen, but up there with the craziest performances I've seen in cycling
It was more dominant than Indurain 1992 Luxembourg - because in 92 it was a 60km TT for similar gaps to the rest. I didn’t follow cycling much before then. If stage 16 wasn’t the most dominant in history then surely it wasn’t far off?
Jacques Anquetil is before my time but was considered great against the clock. Were any of his TT wins comparable?
different build, but how heavy was hinault?Yes, but get your head around the fact he isn’t a typical time trialists build - like Indurain, Cancellara etc. He is 60Kg according to Wiki? Crazy is an understatement.