The most dominant TT performance in history (and why it was stage 16 of the 2023 TdF)

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I think it just means that taking what's essentially jsut a distribution of 2-10 isn't a very good metric in the first place. They could all be very good but very clustered together and it makes the performance look much better by this metric. On the other hand, you just need one strong competitor to make a TT look pretty mid. It makes Monte Grappa look absolutely pedestrian when it wasn't.
I don't know. I feel like Monte Grappa is a perfect example for why the metric does work. A ridiculously hard TT (like Monte Grappa) will always produce huge time gaps. Quintana didn't have to be particularly dominant for that.
 
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I don't know. I feel like Monte Grappa is a perfect example for why it does work. A ridiculously hard TT (like Monte Grappa) will always produce huge time gaps. Quintana didn't have to be particularly dominant for that.
Selecting for relative differences instead of absoltue differences inherently makes it quite bad IMO. It's just too easy to find ratios that are higher without them being TTs of this magnitude.

Maybe you wanna take some weighted average of s/km or s/min lost divided by position or whatever.
 
Selecting for relative differences instead of absoltue differences inherently makes it quite bad IMO. It's just too easy to find ratios that are higher without them being TTs of this magnitude.

Maybe you wanna take some weighted average of s/km or s/min lost divided by position or whatever.
Yeah ok, sorry for not satisfying the scientific standard of the cyclingnews forum. I'll improve on it in my phd thesis.
 
Today Vingegaard put 1'38" into second placed Pogacar in 32 minutes of riding.

In the 1992 Luxembourg time trial, Indurain put 3 minutes into second placed Armand de Las Cuevas in about 70 minutes of riding.


I don't think there is any doubt today was the most dominant TT performance in history.
 
Yeah ok, sorry for not satisfying the scientific standard of the cyclingnews forum. I'll improve on it in my phd thesis.
Neither a need to apologize nor to be so defensive.

I don't even disagree with the premise of thie thread. This was the most dominant ITT in history, or at least as far as I remember. I think it's actually quite obvious. But the metric you pick actually makes it seem less impressive than it was.
 
Nice thread, but I don't really understand all of this stuff. Im not a scientist, and I do like the eye-test, and yes, this was the most dominating win I can remember. Not only in terms of s/km, more more so the magnitude, the stage, the rivalry etc. This performance was mindboggling and shocking, the best ITT I have ever seen - plain and simple!

Other time trials that really stands out for me was Cancellara in 2009 and Pogacar in 2020. The first because of the sheer dominance and watts, the ladder because of the pure shock value, although I do believe Roglic underpermed severely on that day.

There probably have been lots of others, Tony Martin have been super dominant a few times I seem to recall, Remco etc., but nothing like this, surely?

If we go back, I like me some Jan Ullrich. Indurain. I didn't witness those, but would have loved to. I cant seem to remember Armstrong doing something similar to Indurain 1992 and Ulle 1997, but he was just consistently great without having one out of the world performance.
 
Only thing missing compared to Ullrich and Indurain was Vingegaard catching Pogacar. Obviously the TT wasn´ long enough but if we are talking about domination it´s probably the most satisfying/humilating moment of the race for involved athlets.
 
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Pretty similar domination by Hinault in 1979

Stage 15: Friday, July 13, Evian - Morzine Avoriaz Hill Climb

1-mountains.gif
Major Ascent: Avoriaz

  1. Bernard Hinault: 1hr 33min 35sec
  2. Joop Zoetemelk @ 2min 37sec
  3. Joaquin Agostinho @ 3min 15sec
  4. Gery Verlinden @ 4min 6sec
  5. Lucien van Impe @ 4min 11sec
  6. Giovanni Battaglin @ 4min 39sec
  7. Hennie Kuiper @ 4min 48sec
  8. Knut Knudsen @ 5min 13sec
  9. Yves Hézard @ 5min 16sec
  10. Didi Thurau @ 5min 34sec

And in 1978 he put 4’10” into his eventual second Zoetemelk (who had been wearing yellow). However Zoetemelk was not second in the ITT.
 
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Pretty similar domination by Hinault in 1979

Stage 15: Friday, July 13, Evian - Morzine Avoriaz Hill Climb

1-mountains.gif
Major Ascent: Avoriaz

  1. Bernard Hinault: 1hr 33min 35sec
  2. Joop Zoetemelk @ 2min 37sec
  3. Joaquin Agostinho @ 3min 15sec
  4. Gery Verlinden @ 4min 6sec
  5. Lucien van Impe @ 4min 11sec
  6. Giovanni Battaglin @ 4min 39sec
  7. Hennie Kuiper @ 4min 48sec
  8. Knut Knudsen @ 5min 13sec
  9. Yves Hézard @ 5min 16sec
  10. Didi Thurau @ 5min 34sec

And in 1978 he put 4’10” into his eventual second Zoetemelk (who had been wearing yellow). However Zoetemelk was not second in the ITT.
That‘s a 1.5 hour+ TT, yet the gap to 3rd is barely bigger than in today‘s 35 minute demonstration.
 
That was the same for Carapaz in 2020 on LPdBF. Remember, he would have won the KOM jersey had he won the final climb, so he took it easy the whole flat and then went balls out on the climb. But he didn't even finish in the top 6 (it was a Cat 1) and with Pogacar winning all 10 points Pog won the KOM jersey by 8 points over Carapaz.
This was also after a rest day, on top of everything else that has been brought up.
 
Yeah, we all saw it. Jonas Vingegaard dominated this TT like nobody has dominated a TT since...well...since when exactly? If you want an answer to that you came to the wrong post, but I'll write some other stuff instead.

So what I did is I tried to come up with a metric showing how dominant a TT performance was, which I will call dominance index because why not. I divided the gap between the first two riders by the gap between the first and the 10th rider. So we basically get the portion of the spread of the top 10 that lies between the front two. If we get a dominance index of 0.1 that means the gap between 1st and 2nd is 10% of the gap between 1st and 10th. A higher dominance index means a more dominant win. Btw, I just as well could have divided the gap between the first two and the winning time, that would probably give you similar results. I felt comparing time gaps is more telling but you are free to disagree about that.

Because I don't have infinite time and am generally not overly skilled in working with data I only looked at TdF ITT's in the post Armstrong era, so from 2006 forward. Feel free to look further back, I'd be especially interested in a comparison with how much Indurain dominated TT's. So, what are the results from 2006 to 2022:

TdF 22 2
19​
108​
0,175926​
TdF 22 1
5​
20​
0,25​
TdF 21 1
19​
60​
0,316667​
TdF 21 2
21​
81​
0,259259​
TdF 20
81​
174​
0,465517​
TdF 19
14​
61​
0,229508​
TdF 18
1​
83​
0,012048​
TdF 17 1
5​
16​
0,3125​
TdF 17 2
1​
37​
0,027027​
TdF 16 1
63​
144​
0,4375​
TdF 16 2
21​
70​
0,3​
TdF 15
5​
32​
0,15625​
TdF 14
99​
178​
0,55618​
TdF 13 1
12​
112​
0,107143​
TdF 13 2
9​
111​
0,081081​
TdF 12 1
7​
15​
0,466667​
TdF 12 2
35​
129​
0,271318​
TdF 12 3
76​
185​
0,410811​
TdF 11
7​
128​
0,054688​
TdF 10 1
10​
35​
0,285714​
TdF 10 2
17​
218​
0,077982​
TdF 09 1
18​
40​
0,45​
TdF 09 2
3​
62​
0,048387​
TdF 08 1
18​
47​
0,382979​
TdF 08 2
21​
141​
0,148936​
TdF 07 1
13​
32​
0,40625​
TdF 07 2
74​
159​
0,465409​
TdF 07 3
51​
170​
0,3​
TdF 06 1
1​
9​
0,111111​
TdF 06 2
60​
104​
0,576923​
TdF 06 3
41​
241​
0,170124​

Here you have the results of 31 TTs. In the first column I somewhat clumsily named the stage (if there is a 1 at the end that means we are talking about the 1st TT of that Tour, etc), the 2nd column is the gap between 1st and 2nd, the 2nd column the gap between 1st and 10th and the 3rd column the dominance index. That's the column we care about. As you can see results between 0 and 0.5 are somewhat common, with 2 results reaching the 0.5 barrier, but none surpassing 0.6. Those two wins were by Tony Martin in 2014 and Serhiy Honchar in 2006.

So, how does Vingegaard's performance match up to this?

TdF 23
98​
201​
0,487562​

Pretty good. Vingegaard's TT is in 3rd place, beating out legendary TTs like for example Pogacar's win at LPdBF in 2020. That's probably the obvious comparison to make and indeed the two results look similarly dominant. In fact what motivated me to make this post was someone saying that just like in 2020, one rider dominated while the 2nd favorite had a disappointing performance. Except, was Pogacar actually that disappointing? Let's pretend for a second Vingegaard hadn't ridden today and instead Pogacar won in front of Van Aert. How dominant would that win have been?

TdF 23 (without Vingegaard)
73​
118​
0,618644​

Yes you are seeing this right. The dominance index is 0.62. Without Vingegaard there is a good argument to be made that this would have been the most dominant TdF TT in the post Armstrong era. More dominant than anything Cancellara or Martin ever produced. More dominant than his own infamously dominant LPdBF TT in 2020. Way more dominant in fact. No other result comes close to 0.62.
But that of course makes you wonder. What would Vingegaards dominance index have been without Pogacar. Brace yourself:

TdF 23 (without Pogacar)
171​
211​
0,810427​

0.81! That is so completely off the charts. This means that the gap between Vingegaard and Van Aert was over 5 times larger than the gap between Van Aert and 11th place. And btw, in case you are wondering what happens to Martin's and Honchar's wins if you exclude the 2nd placed rider, the answer is, not much. Honchar's index increases from 0.577 to 0.587 and Martin's index from 0.556 to 0.591, so both of them remain under the 0.6 mark. Vingegaards dominance index increasing to over 0.8 is completely bonkers.

So what's the takeaway? Was this the most dominant TT performance in history? Probably not. The title was clickbait all along. But I still found it interesting to somehow quantify how incredible todays performance was.
Thanks for doing this. It's a lot to read, if you have a moment, could you just put column headers in there for the values? Would help me understand the data at a glance.
 
The first graph here is great.
It is actually gold.
 
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Most dominant recently most probably yes, but in history , most probably not , but it's impossible to stay.
It was more dominant than Indurain 1992 Luxembourg - because in 92 it was a 60km TT for similar gaps to the rest. I didn’t follow cycling much before then. If stage 16 wasn’t the most dominant in history then surely it wasn’t far off?

Jacques Anquetil is before my time but was considered great against the clock. Were any of his TT wins comparable?
 
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To put so much time per km into Pog, who did a freaking great TT, is just absolutely absurd. Not just the most dominant TT i've seen, but up there with the craziest performances I've seen in cycling
Yes, but get your head around the fact he isn’t a typical time trialists build - like Indurain, Cancellara etc. He is 60Kg according to Wiki? Crazy is an understatement.
 
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It was more dominant than Indurain 1992 Luxembourg - because in 92 it was a 60km TT for similar gaps to the rest. I didn’t follow cycling much before then. If stage 16 wasn’t the most dominant in history then surely it wasn’t far off?

Jacques Anquetil is before my time but was considered great against the clock. Were any of his TT wins comparable?

there are many reasons not to use that as a comparison. many.

however, it was largely flat. speeds much higher. harder to make big gaps on.

so 3 minutes to De Las Cuevas and 4 to Bugno and Lemond is crazier as far as I am concerned.