Teams & Riders The "MVP" Mathieu Van der Poel Road Discussion Thread

[EddyMazzoleni]

Remco would ride away and MVP would lose the race.

Or maybe Pogi keeps Remco close to bridge the gap on OK and with the energy you save by not pulling you are able to keep his wheel when he attacks

 

[Red Rick]

Do you think any different course of action would have got him the win today?
If he wasn't going to be able to win, then why is securing himself second not the honourable, professional thing to do?

I think he could increase his chances by making better decisions.

He did not secure 2nd by pulling, the chance of losing to Evenepoel was neglible.

Where is the professionalism in making sabotaging your own chances?

Where is the honor in sabotaging your own chances?

"The strongest won so all is well" is cycling in it's least interesting form.

 

[Gigs_98]

Do you think any different course of action would have got him the win today?
If he wasn't going to be able to win, then why is securing himself second not the honourable, professional thing to do?

I definitely think he could have won. People are always talking about how enormous the difference in level between Pogacar and the field is but the difference in level between Pogacar and MvdP is not that enormous. Probably somewhat similar to the difference between prime Cancellara and his nearest competitors (although of course Cancellara had a few guys who were similarly far off, while Pogacar only has MvdP) yet we still treated the likes of GVA or Vanmarcke winning as realistic scenarios. I'm not convinced at all Pogacar can drop an MvdP on the last Kwaremont who has not put his nose in the air once.

 

[Red Rick]

I definitely think he could have won. People are always talking about how enormous the difference in level between Pogacar and the field is but the difference in level between Pogacar and MvdP is not that enormous. Probably somewhat similar to the difference between prime Cancellara and his nearest competitors (although of course Cancellara had a few guys who were similarly far off, while Pogacar only has MvdP) yet we still treated the likes of GVA or Vanmarcke winning as realistic scenarios. I'm not convinced at all Pogacar can drop an MvdP on the last Kwaremont who has not put his nose in the air once.

Or making a significant positioning error on the 2nd Kwaremont that leads to him having to beat the record to even get back to the wheel.

 

[canina82]

I definitely think he could have won. People are always talking about how enormous the difference in level between Pogacar and the field is but the difference in level between Pogacar and MvdP is not that enormous. Probably somewhat similar to the difference between prime Cancellara and his nearest competitors (although of course Cancellara had a few guys who were similarly far off, while Pogacar only has MvdP) yet we still treated the likes of GVA or Vanmarcke winning as realistic scenarios. I'm not convinced at all Pogacar can drop an MvdP on the last Kwaremont who has not put his nose in the air once.

If he doesn't work at all, he would increase Remco's chances of winning, not his chances.

 

[AmRacer]

If he doesn't work at all, he would increase Remco's chances of winning, not his chances.

Mathieu would win a 3-way sprint against Pogi and Remco 9 times out of 10.

 

[TrekCyclist]

For me a scenario where MVDP does not work with Pogacar, but Evenepoel rides away from both- That seems less likely than Pogacar closing the gap and MVDP wins the sprint. Or Pogacar first rides away from MVDP and then from Evenepoel. But overall better odds for MVDP than with what he was doing yesterday.

 

[canina82]

Mathieu would win a 3-way sprint against Pogi and Remco 9 times out of 10.

But do you think Remco would not try to attack? If MVP wasn't working, do you think Remco would work?

 

[AmRacer]

But do you think Remco would not try to attack? If MVP wasn't working, do you think Remco would work?

If Remco attacks, both Pogi and Mathieu would react

 

[canina82]

If Remco attacks, both Pogi and Mathieu would react

And Pogacar would happily drag MVP all the way to the finish? Unrealistic scenario. MVP didn't do anything wrong. The gap between them wasn't small. Pogacar even let MVP putting a fake tempo in boonenberg.
For me, the team that could race better was Bora, including Remco. The race was over the moment they didn't attack Pogacar between moolenberg and Kwaremont.

 

[AmRacer]

And Pogacar would happily drag MVP all the way to the finish? Unrealistic scenario. MVP didn't do anything wrong. The gap between them wasn't small. Pogacar even let MVP putting a fake tempo in boonenberg.
For me, the team that could race better was Bora, including Remco. The race was over the moment they didn't attack Pogacar between moolenberg and Kwaremont.

Pogi will of course drop both of them at first climb

Mathieu lost a bullet second time up OK, due to bad positioning. Maybe because he was out of teammates.

 

[vappa]

Pogi will of course drop both of them at first climb

Mathieu lost a bullet second time up OK, due to bad positioning. Maybe because he was out of teammates.

He was in solid position but got blocked when there was time to accelerate

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I think he could increase his chances by making better decisions.

He did not secure 2nd by pulling, the chance of losing to Evenepoel was neglible.

Where is the professionalism in making sabotaging your own chances?

Where is the honor in sabotaging your own chances?

"The strongest won so all is well" is cycling in it's least interesting form.

Guys like Van der Poel or Evenepoel: they don't think before races they are inferior to anyone and they behave accordingly. They will cooperate and trade pulls and if they lose they respect the stronger guy. One can call it alpha male mentality, another one can call it stupidity but thats the way it is.

 

[Red Rick]

Guys like Van der Poel or Evenepoel: they don't think before races they are inferior to anyone and they behave accordingly. They will cooperate and trade pulls and if they lose they respect the stronger guy. One can call it alpha male mentality, another one can call it stupidity but thats the way it is.

Van der Poel was literally talking how Pogacar is just better before the race

 

[AmRacer]

Van der Poel was literally talking how Pogacar is just better before the race

And Remco said he was there to win the race.

 

[Red Rick]

And Remco said he was there to win the race.

Remco says a lot of things that are contradicted by his actions

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Van der Poel was literally talking how Pogacar is just better before the race

Sure but deep inside they want to prove themselves to be the strongest cause they have usually been from early years. They are not used to behaviors typical for weaker riders (even if this tactic is the right one).

 

[canina82]

Guys like Van der Poel or Evenepoel: they don't think before races they are inferior to anyone and they behave accordingly. They will cooperate and trade pulls and if they lose they respect the stronger guy. One can call it alpha male mentality, another one can call it stupidity but thats the way it is.

MVP said Pogacar was superior before the race.

 

[Netserk]

Guys like Van der Poel or Evenepoel: they don't think

thats the problem

 

[Red Rick]

Sure but deep inside they want to prove themselves to be the strongest cause they have usually been from early years. They are not used to behaviors typical for weaker riders (even if this tactic is the right one).

So?

Should we celebrate idiocy?

So we celebrate a refusal to learn and make better decisions?

 

[Salvarani]

Van der Poel was literally talking how Pogacar is just better before the race

Yet he was only six seconds off from being able to follow on the Kwaremont.

Sounds to me like he was sandbagging a bit with such a comment to place the favoritism on Pogacar before the race.

But I guess we only take what riders say as 100% truth, when it suits our point.

 

[Salvarani]

And Remco said he was there to win the race.

He did really well and finished 3rd, so that checks out. No doubt in my mind that he would probably be able to podium this race going into it.

I think in hindsight for MVDP, he could have probably benefitted from Remco actually making it back so it was those three working together. MVDP would have had someone to work with after Kwaremont and Paterberg, rather than Remco emptying himself before it.

If there was one moment MVDP should not have helped it was there, imo. Maybe he tried as it was visible they were only going faster when Pog pulled and he had to dig deep just follow him there.

 

[Barkintheeye]

Many have already pointed out that MVDP might benefit from letting Remco back into the mix. Had he refrained from working with Pog it is certain that Remco would catch them. He would spend less energy before climbing Kwaremont for the last time and Pog would have had to contend with more than one adversary which might have changed the overall dynamics. A gutsy but dangerous move would even be to let Remco go on his own and Pog to do the catching up before OK #3.

This however seems to be as far off as you can get in mentality and attitude when it comes to MVDP. It’s not his style and not his way of racing and winning. It just looks inconceivable to him. Still maybe that’s the only possible way to beat Pog at RVV (and all other races too)?

 

[Oldman]

I think he could increase his chances by making better decisions.

He did not secure 2nd by pulling, the chance of losing to Evenepoel was neglible.

Where is the professionalism in making sabotaging your own chances?

Where is the honor in sabotaging your own chances?

"The strongest won so all is well" is cycling in it's least interesting form.

It's easy to analyze that huge effort from our comfy perspective.
One thing is clear: Mathieu is accustomed to and expects to win every race he enters. He wasn't riding for 2nd and Remco is an afterthought until he rides close enough to be of assistance. He would know that Remco has zero chance of catching Tadej unless there was a crash. The problem with collaboration on a course like this; it tortures through pace-variation from both terrain and racing. A rider that catches you has already assumed a faster pace and MvP attempting to accelerate could completely blow up beyond finishing at that stage of the race.

 

[Oldman]

Guys like Van der Poel or Evenepoel: they don't think before races they are inferior to anyone and they behave accordingly. They will cooperate and trade pulls and if they lose they respect the stronger guy. One can call it alpha male mentality, another one can call it stupidity but thats the way it is.

It's reality. Races that long can make you feel like crap, then OK, then great at different points. You keep going in hope the rider in front experiences some failure and try not to hyper-extend resources in the process. I'm sure the pain-fog doesn't help after 4 hours either.