'The Old Contador is gone' Claim

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airstream

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Eshnar said:
And yet you claim that AC, despite being in the lead from the Etna, did not gain enough in the mountains...
No, I just offer not to project the 2011 Giro results at the 2013 Tour. The only case when one has global mountain edge in the Tour was Armstrong in 2008 for obvious reason (reason of absence of main rivals). And yet 1998 certainly.
 
Netserk said:
Rujano vs Contador:

Stage 8 (Tropea): 23
Stage 9 (Etna): 3
Stage 13 (Grossglockner): 0
Stage 14 (Zoncolan): 1'37 (97)
Stage 15 (Gardeccia): 44
Stage 16 (MTT): 39
Stage 19 (Macugnaga): 2'20 (140)
Stage 20 (Sestriere): -1'15 (-75)

Total time = 271 seconds = 4'31
The elephant in the room that.mclovin clearly seems to be missing is that The Great One did .not.go.into the giro with the aim of - put 7 minutes.into Jose Rujano.
He went in.to.win the giro, did that by stage 13. There were 4 mountain stages (3 if you are an anton fanboy) where contador.did.not go all out because he didn't know the name.of.the game was to see how.much time 1 can put into Rujano.

Some people also seem.to.be underating Rujano, namely because he never showed it in their beloved tdf. Its worth noting that on etna and grossglockner, Rujano and Contador put a minute each into the likes of nibali and scarponi ( who the year before were doing likewise to Evans)
 
Parrulo said:
the vuelta performance was imo well above par, not above the expectations the fans had but if we are realistic what he did with no racing in his legs for nearly a year was absolutely fantastic.

Sean kelly said it himself in an interview a couple months ago, winning a GT without any racing in his legs was an amazing achievement in his opinion, and honestly i will take his word on that.
I read that same quote and I value his expertise. I think many here are jumping to conclusions based on less-than-his-best performances, as Afrank stated, that have reasonable explanations for why he didn't hav the same ability to create and maintain separation on his attacks. The reason have been mentioned many times before but have often been shot down as "excuses" by those that refuse to see beyond their bias and accept the reasons as possible explanations among many for what transpired.
In the end we can only make our amateur analysis and then let the road make the final determination.
 
del1962 said:
I never really understand the argument that because he was not racing he was going to struggle to find his best form in vuelta, it is not as if he was injured and could not train, but much of the new thought is that you do not race to train.
.
That's just a fairtale made so sky fans can sleep well at night. Swimming coach invents idea of training hard. No one else ever thought of it.. If its such an amazing new idea how come none of those guys actually go.into their peak race with no racing?
The other point is that people who had been racing all season would have been feeling the effects at the end of the season
And thats a generalization.that doesn't really offer.much when one is talking about specific riders. Some.riders like.froome will have been feeling the effects of a.long season. Others like.rodriguez anton and maybe valverde whose specific season aim was to.peak.for the race, would not have.
 
Aug 16, 2011
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Miburo said:
Why do you think he won't have the giro 2011 level?
Just a feeling if anything, I can't see him riding away from Froome like he did to Scarponi and Nibali at that Giro. But I don't discount the possibility that he might do this. I could see him getting to a level very close to what he was at in the Giro.
 
May 28, 2012
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Afrank said:
Just a feeling if anything, I can't see him riding away from Froome like he did to Scarponi and Nibali at that Giro. But I don't discount the possibility that he might do this. I could see him getting to a level very close to what he was at in the Giro.
Like I've said before, attacks such as the one he did on the Etna are futile against Froome. Scarponi completely blew after following Contador up to Rujano, but Froome can close the gap much more efficiently. He can't immediately respond, but he's stronger when the climbs aren't very steep or when there's a strong headwind. Froome is an opponent at a level Contador has never experienced before, with his strong flat TT he's even more dangerous than Rasmussen or Schleck. Contador needs to improve his race tactics in the mountains, it's his only choice.
 
Aug 16, 2011
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I agree, I can't see Contador having as easy a time distancing Froome as he did Scarponi. I expect both will be in top form come July, ready to do battle in the mountains.
 
Pentacycle said:
Froome is an opponent at a level Contador has never experienced before, with his strong flat TT he's even more dangerous than Rasmussen or Schleck. Contador needs to improve his race tactics in the mountains, it's his only choice.
You talk as if Froome has been doing this, consistently, for years. Say what, Contador needs to improve his tactics? :rolleyes:

OMG, are you saying Froome is as good as Rasmussen? :D
 
Contador won't have to attack as far out as he did on Etna. He will most likely win the last ITT, limit his losses in the flat one to a minimum and likewise in the TTT. One or two attacks 3-5 km out will be enough to secure the overall, but he will most likely attack more than that.

EDIT: and BTW if anyone needs to improve tactics, it's Froome. He looked like a total amateur on the Vuelta mountains tactics-wise ;)
 

airstream

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Netserk said:
Contador won't have to attack as far out as he did on Etna. He will most likely win the last ITT, limit his losses in the flat one to a minimum and likewise in the TTT. One or two attacks 3-5 km out will be enough to secure the overall, but he will most likely attack more than that.

EDIT: and BTW if anyone needs to improve tactics, it's Froome. He looked like a total amateur on the Vuelta mountains tactics-wise ;)
I don't see any reason to think Froome is weaker in any type of TT. Descent technique? Possible, but very vague. In the Vuelta TT Froome was losing to Contador around 10-15 sec on the 1st checkpoint (flat section). He lost '30 on the finish. Contador trained that distance a lot of times whereas Froome probably did it only time in the morning. So it says to me a lot.

I won't be surprised if Froome will turn out to be the strongest climber, though he will rather be temporizing
 
airstream said:
I don't see any reason to think Froome is weaker in any type of TT. Descent technique? Possible, but very vague. In the Vuelta TT Froome was losing to Contador around 10-15 sec on the 1st checkpoint (flat section). He lost '30 on the finish. Contador trained that distance a lot of times whereas Froome probably did it only time in the morning. So it says to me a lot.
I think Alberto will win it, because it's the perfect ITT for him. Froome or no Froome. Alberto will win it _O_
 
May 28, 2012
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cineteq said:
You talk as if Froome has been doing this, consistently, for years. Say what, Contador needs to improve his tactics? :rolleyes:

OMG, are you saying Froome is as good as Rasmussen? :D
Froome is probably close or equal to Contador in the mountains, but in the TT he has the advantage IMO. Rasmussen could never do that, and as far as I know Froome is the only one who scares Contador. That's exactly the reason why he was attacking him early on in Oman, just experimenting.

He's now found out Froome just doesn't really get dropped, he keeps riding his own tempo, which means on Prati di Tivo Contador will (have to) wait much longer(2-3 kms max from the finish) to take off. Froome can maybe even drop him if he dares going earlier.
 

airstream

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Netserk said:
I think Alberto will win it, because it's the perfect ITT for him. Froome or no Froome. Alberto will win it _O_
Oh, great argument. I didn't expect other one. Reasonings about irreal mental superiority and experience are attached? :)
 
May 28, 2012
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airstream said:
Oh, great argument. I didn't expect other one. Reasonings about irreal mental superiority and experience are attached? :)
That was idd a typical Contador fan reaction. They just won't recognize a still improving Froome as a possible equal or better rider than Contador. For now Contador is still on top, but this year could be a complete turnaround. Froome is still a mystery, who knows what he really is capable of in top form as a team leader?
 
del1962 said:
I never really understand the argument that because he was not racing he was going to struggle to find his best form in vuelta, it is not as if he was injured and could not train, but much of the new thought is that you do not race to train.

The other point is that people who had been racing all season would have been feeling the effects at the end of the season.
just goes to show how much you know about cycling really . . . either that or guys like Sean Kelly and Perico Delgado have been wrong all of this time!!!!
 
Jul 29, 2012
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This is just ridiculous.

Based on what do you think Froome might be equal to Contador in the mountains.

Because he dropped Wiggins, VDB2 and Nibali? Come on, be serious.

Btw wasn't Froome struggling when nibali attacked on the second last mountain stage in the tour? ;)

And you call that kinda guy equal to Contador?

He's the most dangerous for sure and we still don't know his exact limits but wait untill we see a MTF in the tour before you're going to say he's equal to Contador.

A guy who had no equal in the last 5 years.
 

airstream

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Netserk said:
Contador is more explosive than Froome. sub 40k is perfect for Alberto. And Alberto *IS* a better descender than Froome.
If you said 'He will win because I want him to win' it would be more honest. :D Explosiveness is purely visual criterion. The most explosive doesn't always win. Froome is not a teakettle at descending too. Not Basso and not Menchov. I didn't see episodes that characterize Froome badly as a descender. But if you like to consider Contador better simply cos it is Contador, OK.
 

airstream

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Pentacycle said:
That was idd a typical Contador fan reaction. They just won't recognize a still improving Froome as a possible equal or better rider than Contador. For now Contador is still on top, but this year could be a complete turnaround. Froome is still a mystery, who knows what he really is capable of in top form as a team leader?
Absolutely agree. Most of Contador fans look into Contador like a separate universe where the final outcome depends on only Contador himself and nobody else.
 
May 28, 2012
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Miburo said:
This is just ridiculous.

Based on what do you think Froome might be equal to Contador in the mountains.

Because he dropped Wiggins, VDB2 and Nibali? Come on, be serious.

Btw wasn't Froome struggling when nibali attacked on the second last mountain stage in the tour? ;)

And you call that kinda guy equal to Contador?

He's the most dangerous for sure and we still don't know his exact limits but wait untill we see a MTF in the tour before you're going to say he's equal to Contador.

A guy who had no equal in the last 5 years.
If you really want to judge about the Contador vs. Froome debate, forget all about last season. It's 2013 that counts, every season has its own specific factors(illness, injury, family issues, team problems, weight, partying too much, amount of training and much more) for each rider, no season is the same as any other.

You can't realistically count on a rider to win the races he won last year.
 

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