The REAL cynics: a shining example

[Granville57]

I can't imagine a more clear example of attempted thread derailment than what happened to my most recent one (all vanity aside).

In this new interivew, Christophe Bassons offers some truly profound and insightful thoughts about doping:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bassons-wont-judge-landis-and-armstrong

One can very clearly see the introduction of antagonistic and unproductive posts. An idiot can see it unfold by viewing the thread. And yet those posts are allowed to remain when they provide nothing whatsoever of value to the thread itself. In fact, it points out something that I consider to be quite interesting and revealing.

What happens here is what often happens in The Clinic. Disruptive posters zero-in with no other objective than to insult Clinic members for their perspective. What is significant about it in this case? The topic is that of Bassons elevated perspective in regards to the very topic that The Clinic exists for. And yet thoughtful and intelligent responses are met with derision and sarcasm.

So who are the real cynics and "haters" in all this? Those of us that don't believe "the myth" and have become somewhat callous towards those who deny the extent of the problems within cycling are often faced with condescension because of it. But now, the tables are quickly turned! Those who normally "appear" to be so offended by this position suddenly attack us for embracing a more enlightened view of things.

To me, this just reinforces my belief that trolling posters are the ones who feed on "hate" the most, as they are clearly disturbed when a thread seems to be moving away from "hate" to a more profound perspective. They completely ignore or deny the possibility that Clinic regulars really do want to see doping in cycling eradicated! The trollers belief that we derive pleasure from the ongoing saga is both misguided and misplaced.

I think the majority of posts in that particular thread are a testament to the fact that many here truly do want to see reform. But that's not good enough for the trolls. They won't stand for that. We must hate. They seem to need our hate. But they are the ones without a compass.

The point of all this? Why are those people allowed to continue to poison the forum? I don't need to mention them by name, it's clear to anyone who looks. They have a history of doing this over and over again. They offend, they are responded to, and the thread is pulled off course. As of this writing, it seems that their attempts will ultimately fail. But why weren't they stopped in the first place? I flagged one of my own posts with links to what was happening. Since the most annoying posters were already on my Ignore List, I was unable to flag them directly. But as usual, their disruptive behavior was being repeatedly quoted so I was unable to avoid what was taking place.

My only final questions to the mods would be, Do you want quality threads or not? I do my best to offer what I can, but it seems pointless if, in the end, I'm spending time and energy to "dance the dance" of admonishing the morons and keeping the thread on course. Ignoring them doesn't seem to work.

 

[Race Radio]

They are unable to actually discuss the topic so then instead choose to bait and insult other members.

It is clear that their goal is to disrupt, not contribute, to the discussion. When they are called on it they claim "Persecution" for their "Beliefs"

 

[BroDeal]

This is why a moderation policy that is based on individual posts is doomed to failure. Someone who wants to disrupt the forum will simply dial his posts down to just below the limit and achieve his goals with multiple posts. Standing in the rain it is not the size of the rain drops that drenches you, it's the total amount of water.

 

[Sanitiser]

This one qualifies for a shark PLUS "The McGinley factor" (certain death to any show or thread):

The shark jump is when the show reaches it's absolute peak (it's all downhill from there). McGinley is the angel of death. When they cast McGinley, everyone's soon out of a job. It's in the contract!

What about my thread? I'm pretty sure if botanybay was flicker his post would of gotten edited.

 

[Altitude]

Take it easy, you just joined in December and suddenly you're the voice of the forum. Don't take this place so seriously.

 

[Cal_Joe]

<snip>
One can very clearly see the introduction of antagonistic and unproductive posts. <snip>

1 - You are on an internet forum.

2 - The forum is the Clinic subforum of the Cycling News forums.

3 - Hardly the end of the world. HTFU.

 

[Sanitiser]

When I create threads like these http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=12087
they get locked because they're not 'serious'. Make up your mind.

 

[Ferminal]

"Yeah his calm approach is in direct contrast to his fans in the clinic. "

"
Clearly his understanding of what doping represents in terms of the health of the athlete is far more pragmatic and less judgmental than most of the posters on this forum who, with no exposure or practical experience, have reduced this issue to something very black and white. "

Surely these posts have no place there, it has been said thousands of time that if you want to discuss other posters or the "forum consensus" do it here, not in threads of genuine content.

lol Joe where you been...

and DB, maybe if you posted seriously your threads and ideas would be shown a bit of a respect.

 

[Granville57]

Take it easy, you just joined in December and suddenly you're the voice of the forum. Don't take this place so seriously.

From the member who joined in...October. LOL!
(Btw, do you suppose I would feel better about this after two years or more? )

1 - You are on an internet forum.

2 - The forum is the Clinic subforum of the Cycling News forums.

3 - Hardly the end of the world. HTFU.

Your own low opinion of The Clinic, and the content contained therein, is of little concern to me.

- removed by mod -

I haven't the slightest idea who that is directed at, or what it even means. But your post has illustrated one of my points more clearly than any of my words ever could.

 

[Martin318is]

My only final questions to the mods would be, Do you want quality threads or not? I do my best to offer what I can, but it seems pointless if, in the end, I'm spending time and energy to "dance the dance" of admonishing the morons and keeping the thread on course. Ignoring them doesn't seem to work.

Well, perhaps if you had reported ANY of these types of posts to the moderators we would have done something about them. It is very clear to all concerned (particularly in the Clinic) that debating with them just helps them kill the thread.

It is an amazingly consistent story that those who complain via posting in the forum about other posters never actually use the "report to moderator" facility that is there for all to use.

 

[Granville57]

Well, perhaps if you had reported ANY of these types of posts to the moderators we would have done something about them. It is very clear to all concerned (particularly in the Clinic) that debating with them just helps them kill the thread.

It is an amazingly consistent story that those who complain via posting in the forum about other posters never actually use the "report to moderator" facility that is there for all to use.

I flagged one of my own posts with links to what was happening. Since the most annoying posters were already on my Ignore List, I was unable to flag them directly. But as usual, their disruptive behavior was being repeatedly quoted so I was unable to avoid what was taking place.

Not sure what else I was supposed to do

 

[Francois the Postman]

Granville, I get your point, but I would like you to calm down a bit. I also think you will like a little experiment that will be coming up soon.

Race Radio. Correct we have them, and they can claim all the want, it's not the sort if stuff I or any of the other mods will get teary eyed over. It does strike us though that when there is a bust-up, it is usually the same people swinging and batting. If people cross lines, we deal with them. Those lines are becoming increasingly sharper, and it depends a bit on the poster what where and how. But I suspect our lines won't match yours, so you will have to get used to some frustration I fear. We have a lot of people to get through the same door, and I guess more people are welcome here than would be welcome in your house. It doesn't mean that we are deaf to your complaints, but it will mean that you will have to ignore some stuff that is going on. I also refer to the above comment, bear with us a couple of weeks, rather than make the same complaint as two or three days ago. We know how you guys feel by now, honest.

BroDeal, we don't have a per post moderation policy, we judge the total of posts. it is blatantly obvious that you want this forum to be something else, it is why you registered here in the first place. What you tolerate from others as valid is a much smaller pool than we accept. You are also one of the people calling folk trolls and starting to bash them when they are not. You only complain when it is trolling by people you disagree with. I would respect your complaints more if you dished the put-downs out in all directions. I asked you a question in a PM a couple of days back. I wish you were as keen to spend some time responding to it constructively as you are keen to complain. There are probably forums that are much more to your liking when it comes to the people that hang out there, or the way they are dealt with. Something appeals to you here too, but that means you will have to get used to some folk that you don't like.

Sanatiser, you must have read my post right beneath that post. I will get back to that thread, if someone or someones have ignored it, they will find out. Not sure why you brought this up, as we did act even before you complained.

Altitude, I agree, some people are taking this forum very serious indeed. For some it is a source for info, for others to campaign, for others just a place to hang out and have fun. I don't mind when people feel involved or are taking it seriously. There are worse things to deal with than earnest people. One comment, putting people in place for join dates or post volume is likely to find little empathy from the mods. If he has a point, we'll deal with it. Even if he had made 1 post, it was a bad one, and joined just to make it. [not saying that is the case here, not saying it ain't either].

Cal_Joe. Not much I can respond to, but you are welcome to make that point.

Sanitiser. We did make up our mind. That's why it got locked. It is part of the drive to get rid of some of the fluff. It is a work in progress.

Ferminal, same as Cal Joe. Not much I can comment on directly.


In general, I get some here get frustrated because you want a better forum. We all do. Even the mods, believe it or not. I get everyone has their own versions of what would probably work best. Sad truth is that there is no one size fits all, let alone a one size pleases all. If you want an on the spot fix, it ain't out there. But some of you aren't just(!) the constructive forum posters that you think either. I lost count how often you guys confront the same people with the same inevitable result. And some people want to see you guys removed of the board, for ganging up on descenders. At times, they have a point too. [this doesn't apply to all of you btw, this is a general comment to everyone who has been accusing others of trolling and that they are "just" here to have a go at others]

Over the last few days, there have been some lengthy and substantial threads with little derailment. And a lot of mod intervention.

There have been far less frivolous threads too. At a point in time when someone threw a stick of dynamite in the mix.

The clinic ain't as bad as some of you portray it. We also get feedback that things are changing for the better. To some, I guess it will never be right, or in the shape that suits them totally. Some posts are annoying as hell, I give you that. Some of them have some of your names on it.

But you have to be pretty hung up on your own colours if reality if you haven't seen that the mods have started to address many simmering irritations and underlying grudges, several expressed here, and in previous threads. Instead of giving us some time and freedom to give it a good shot and see if we keep making progress in that direction, some here keep jumping on us all the time, at the slightest annoyance, even if we just implemented some changes asked for.

We don't do it your way all the time, or quickly enough? Tough. Get used to it. "The mods here don't see that this guy yadayada". You think? We have the capacity to think for ourselves too, and we actually deal with different expectations and poster behaviour 24/7. There are plenty of forums out there, there is a reason why this one is as busy as it is, and is appealing to people from different sides of the various debates. And people who just like to hang out. Some trolls. A few. Given the numbers we attract, they will always be here.

None of you will get the forum you want, nor do we. But we try to give all of you the forum you'd like it be. Mission impossible. On the whole, this place rocks. It is why you are all here, in the end, and not on the smaller forums that you feel is more to your liking. Compare the memberships. It brings the sort of issues and frustrations that are not part of smaller forums, to that extent. It also makes this a place that will never be "solved", when it comes to "people that annoy the hell out of me, or you".

Find a way to deal with it, and help us to make it more the place you want it to be. Some of you are helping out, most of you are great posters. None of yous are saints either.

But we do listen, and make our own minds up. Give us a bit of space to do it in though, Constant heel snapping whilst we are addressing the points we are well aware of will probably make us care a little less of the outcome.

Again, you won't like all of it. Maybe you'll appreciate some of it.

 

[Francois the Postman]

Granville, you know we do treat your reports and feedback seriously. We have acted on several of your reports, for good reasons. We won't always act the way you want us to. The clinic is a bit of give and take for all.

But again, bear with us. A little bit of trust that we genuinely hear people and try to find a workable way forwards that suits them to a large degree (hopefully), and also leaves room for other attitudes to the Clinc, would not go amiss. Some things take time. We are volunteers with jobs and lives, and it only takes one Kimmage interview to suck up a lot of our time. Two in one week? do the maths.

That is usually the time to give us some space and let us do our thing, not a good moment to jump on each and every thing that annoys people.

 

[Granville57]

Granville, I get your point, but I would like you to calm down a bit. I also think you will like a little experiment that will be coming up soon.

Is this what you meant to say?
http://twitter.com/lancearmstrong/status/28823058835

Trust me, contrary to what many of my posts might indicate, I'm acutally more laid-back and easy-going in real life, often to a fault, than many might imagine.

Granville, you know we do treat your reports and feedback seriously. We have acted on several of your reports, for good reasons. We won't always act the way you want us to. The clinic is a bit of give and take for all.

Yes, we both know that to be true. But if I get a bit too emotionally invested in what goes on in here, you've only yourself to blame, Francois.

When I first "introduced" myself to the CN forum, I did so realizing that there was a chance that I might face lifetime banishment right from the start (or at the very least, sent a bill for taking up extra server space ). But instead, you responded in a thoughtful and considered way. And then others supported my stance, and soon after that, very direct action was taken--which impressed me to no end. So I was hooked!

There is a lot of combined brain-power in The Clinic (contrary to some reports) but what really keeps me coming back is the sense of humor. Even while digging into a "serious" thread, I'm still hopscotching around for laughs-o-plenty. They're easy to come by and are the result of some very witty and clever people on here. Again, I'm not as serious as I might seem.

When I consider the vast amount of threads and posts that make up the totality of this forum, I'm amazed that the mods can keep it sane at all. If there was a Moderator Support Fund I would donate. Seriously.

Not to mention, it's January, we've been pummeled with ice & snow, I've had more time on my hands lately than I normally would. But I will remain calm. Now, back to my imaginary yacht in the Caribbean...

 

[Granville57]

Well, perhaps if you had reported ANY of these types of posts to the moderators we would have done something about them.

I flagged one of my own posts with links to what was happening. Since the most annoying posters were already on my Ignore List, I was unable to flag them directly. But as usual, their disruptive behavior was being repeatedly quoted so I was unable to avoid what was taking place.

Not sure what else I was supposed to do

I would like to address this issue specifically. Could one of the mods confirm this one way or the other for me? I have to say, I never, ever, would've raised this point had I not sent a report to the mods in the first place. Now, I'm not so self-deluded to think that my reporting a post sets off alarms across the planet and that everyone stops in their tracks to attend to my immediate needs. (Come to think of it, how much might a system like that cost? )

But I did, in fact, send a report, so being called out by Martin makes me appear to be somewhat ignorant. Or at least whiny. If my report was overlooked, ignored, dismissed...that't fine. Seriously. But if there is no sign of it ever going through then I would like to know that as well.

Maybe there's a glitch in the system when reporting one's own post? (As stated previously, that seemed to be my only option).

Just curious.

Thanks.

 

[Francois the Postman]

But if I get a bit too emotionally invested in what goes on in here, you've only yourself to blame, Francois.

I think this the key sentence Granville. "Calm down" isn't meant in a belittling way, it is simply a request to take a small step back, and not engage us on a micro-management scale. We simply don't have enough hours in the day to deal with site issues, or give feedback, at that level. We already invest a lot of our own time in this site, voluntary, on a daily basis, and are happy to do so.

But if one of your reports doesn't get the exact response you were hoping for, it might not be a real reason to start a thread on it in this space, and analyse it blow by blow.

There are tons of derailment attempts/events on the site, intended and more innocent. It is impossible for us to micro-manage each post, each poster, or each thread, as and when they happen.

Everyone will have to roll with some of the punches, as they happen, rather than expect a level of moderation that is impossible to give by volunteers on a free site.

Some things really aren't worth getting too excited about, in the grand scheme of things. Some things are, and we try to concentrate on those.

None of the mods have any problems with your enthusiasm to be involved, or the constructive feedback. But purely from a workload and expectation level, I am simply suggesting that a realistic response and interaction level is probably down a notch from what you are hoping for. Sometimes we let things fly as we would be heading straight for the asylum if we didn't, and intervened at that level, consistently.

Keep reporting issues that you want us to look at, but don't reach for the alarm bell when the actual response doesn't match your ideal scenario or expectations.

The site is too big to micro-manage, so we rely on all our users to contribute with realistic expectations, and don't rely on mods to jump in every single time, but take a course of action that helps all of us in the long run, and gives the mods some time to just read and post about cycling too.

As you have tasted on more than one occasion, we still happily make time from time to time to address concerns directly, at length, in detail. In the end, all of us are trying to make a more perfect site.

However, we are simply unable to sustain involvement with one poster here at that level, time wise. That was my comment, a flag that we can't keep up with your expectations. If that is self-inflicted, well, there are worse things I guess.

Not a biggie, honestly.

Side comment [in general to all]: if I got a bar of chocolate for every time that someone said "I will probably get banned for saying this, but...." when they couldn't be further from the truth, I's be a fat bloke by now. A tiny tiny amount of people here have been banned for faced a temporarily suspension for saying "not it, but how". The time that we spend arguing about the "bannings" taking place, given the actual level of punitive actions, is disproportionate to the time we spend arguing about it.

 

[Francois the Postman]

But I did, in fact, send a report, so being called out by Martin makes me appear to be somewhat ignorant. Or at least whiny. If my report was overlooked, ignored, dismissed...that't fine. Seriously. But if there is no sign of it ever going through then I would like to know that as well.

It did get through, it was seen and evaluated by me, and I can guarantee, other mods too. Maybe not all of us. Maybe Martin was caught off guard by your creative way to flag a post by poster on your ignore list. I am speculating here.

Just keep doing what you did. Don't be overly sensitive when we ignore some of them (even when they might well be valid to some extent). In the end we have to make the call "is it worth it in the grand scheme of things". What i and isn't might vary from day to day a bit, depending on the overall work load the site is giving us that day, and the time we had to volunteer that day too.

Catch me in the middle of my working day, and facing a deadline, and I will be responding a little less attentive than I'd like to be, in an ideal world, for instance. If all the mods are having a day like that, we might ignore the odd report that isn't a red-button event, and hope that members just deal with it themselves, for a day, by just ignoring it stone-dead.

 

[Granville57]

But if one of your reports doesn't get the exact response you were hoping for, it might not be a real reason to start a thread on it in this space, and analyse it blow by blow.

Ahhh, but you see, what really prompted my thread (hence the title) was the irony and hypocrisy of the supposed "anti-haters." But that has gotten lost in all the is other "stuff." Granted, it's my own fault for mixing issues within the thread.

I just find it amusing that they seemed actually disturbed by a thread that didn't contain frivolous remarks, so they injected their own. That was very revealing to me and will help to shape any strategies I use to deal with them in the future. I found that is pointless to try and convince them (as many others have as well) of the substance that lies behind what they often perceive as blind hatred. But now I realize why: It is that very perception that they rely on for their own motivation. They are invested in that themselves and they have no interest in losing that "motivation." Now I know. Nothing I can do about that.

And when I say "amusing," it really does make me laugh. But that is really why I started this thread, not to add clutter to the noise. I'll stop now. Promise.