Teams & Riders The Red Bull - Bora - Hansgrohe team thread

[Oldman]

Uh...that's a pretty odd, pretty extremist way of framing it. Your prerogative I guess, but it really makes for an irrational conversation IMO.

You seem to be saying that if they don't bring all their top riders to a race, it's "bare bones". No, all teams have roles for their riders, and all teams are trying to maximize wins and sponsor value. Beating the crap out of guys by using them as domestiques when they could be more effective helping the team win other races is just...how teams are managed. To the team goals. This is why teams have domestiques.

I would imagine with RBH's fantastic roster, they will assign co-leaders to most of the biggest races and likely all of the GT's. Because that's sane. Some really good guys will be in support roles as climbing doms, and they'll have some roleurs to ride their faces off on the flats. Like every team...ever. No team looks at their roster and grabs the 8 or 9 strongest climbers/riders and calls that a team. They use their resources against team goals.

To what seems to be driving the irrational comments, Roglic will have his chances. He'll get better support in the races where he's the leader if the whole team isn't flogged every day at the Tour. Or he'll be a co-leader for the Tour again. They have a roster which can field numerous strong GT teams. No need to freak out.

The whole topic doesn't take into account that Red Bull wants winners in all events. That's how their marketing works on the global scale. The budget they now have provides all of the best available assets to accomplish that and you've told the truth on how it has to operate. Sporting on this level is almost never democratic but also is merit-based light. Meaning an emerging rider's role in a GT can be tweaked to maximize the desired win outcome. That's one of the reasons why Remco's prior GT teams didn't frighten anyone in stage race: they were lacking Plan B talent or chose not to use it when they should have. It's too dynamic an enterprise to solely support just one rider. UAE doesn't....Tadej just settles the order each race.

 

[HashRouge]

Two co-captains are possible, but after that it must be clear who is a helper and who is not.

I agree with this, but I don't know why that should be especially difficult for Red Bull to achieve. Only Roglic, Remco and Lipo have any real right to expect some form of (co-)leadership at the Tour, and even Roglic must be realising that his days as de facto Tour leader are over. The rest of the riders mentioned - Hindley, Vlasov, Martinez and Pellizzari would surely only expect to play a domestique role at the Tour. After all, Simon Yates won the Giro and then rode the Tour as a support rider for Vingegaard! I wouldn't send Roglic, and I don't honestly think they need all four of Hindley, Vlasov, Martinez and Pellizzari, but I certainly think they can send Lipo and Remco as co-leaders, alongside a hit squad of climbing domestiques.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Get cyclistabi in the team car!

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Get cyclistabi in the team car!

Preferably one with plenty of airbags.

 

[Oldman]

I agree with this, but I don't know why that should be especially difficult for Red Bull to achieve. Only Roglic, Remco and Lipo have any real right to expect some form of (co-)leadership at the Tour, and even Roglic must be realising that his days as de facto Tour leader are over. The rest of the riders mentioned - Hindley, Vlasov, Martinez and Pellizzari would surely only expect to play a domestique role at the Tour. After all, Simon Yates won the Giro and then rode the Tour as a support rider for Vingegaard! I wouldn't send Roglic, and I don't honestly think they need all four of Hindley, Vlasov, Martinez and Pellizzari, but I certainly think they can send Lipo and Remco as co-leaders, alongside a hit squad of climbing domestiques.

That seems reasonable but Martinez, for example, may show some serious form to emerge as a co-leader for the Vuelta as could Hindley. One of the three you mentioned will likely have a challenge that changes status. Lining up several co-leaders in waiting was played out by Ayuso and it failed miserably. UAE had no choice but to encourage him to move along. Fortunately, they should've gotten some money for their trouble.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Uh...that's a pretty odd, pretty extremist way of framing it. Your prerogative I guess.

You seem to be saying that if they don't bring all their top riders to a race, it's "bare bones". No, all teams have roles for their riders, and all teams are trying to maximize wins and sponsor value. Beating the crap out of guys by using them as domestiques when they could be more effective helping the team win other races is just...how teams are managed. To the team goals. This is why teams have domestiques.

I would imagine with RBH's fantastic roster, they will assign co-leaders to most of the biggest races and likely all of the GT's. Because that's sane. Some really good guys will be in support roles as climbing doms, and they'll have some roleurs to ride their faces off on the flats. Like every team...ever. No team looks at their roster and grabs the 8 or 9 strongest climbers/riders and calls that a team. They use their resources against team goals.

To what seems to be driving the irrational comments, Roglic will have his chances. He'll get better support in the races where he's the leader if the whole team isn't flogged every day at the Tour. Or he'll be a co-leader for the Tour again. They have a roster which can field numerous strong GT teams. No need to freak out.

I don't agree this is an extreme view. On the contrary i find it hard to grasp on how people are actually advocating for RBH to take weak team(s) to GTs. On top of that saying UAE and Visma are doing it like that, that is just on how it ever was. Then i don't know if we are watching the same sport. Couldn't be further from the truth.

Get cyclistabi in the team car!

I would take all mentioned riders plus somebody like Tratnik or similar. Each of them would need to prove, building up to the Tour, he deserves a spot. All the talk on how leadership would be an issue and on how they should be afraid of flat stages. IMHO none of that is even worth mentioning. They would act as a strong and coherent team and IMHO wouldn't mind some crosswinds. On the terrain on where UAE and Visma plan to butcher them, over there RBH could actually do something. Compared to watching the obvious outcome.

Preferably one with plenty of airbags.

It's crazy isn't it, on just how much DSes are protected in case of a crash and on how riders aren't. Different worlds.

 

[CyclistAbi]

But i get it guys, you want for RBH to split them apart and assign each a co-leader and a relatively weak team. For Rogla and his fifth Vuelta attempt i guess that might do, as for the rest good luck doing it like that.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

It's crazy isn't it, on just how much DSes are protected in case of a crash and on how riders aren't. Different worlds.

I'm not sure about that. Sometimes they seem to have taken more hits to their heads than the riders.

 

[Berniece]

But i get it guys, you want for RBH to split them apart and assign each a co-leader and a relatively weak team. For Rogla and his fifth Vuelta attempt i guess that might do, as for the rest good luck doing it like that.

Having 7 climbers doesn't get you the best team. Does Visma and UAE only select climbers? Affini and Campenaerts aren't part of their top 8 climbers. Why did they bring them do you think? There is more than just bringing 7 climbers. Not to mention, the leadership issues you get when bringing all of them... How did that workout for UAE when they brought Ayuso?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Lipo will be the leader for the Tour, Remco his superdom and a backup option, Rogla and co bidon carriers.

 

[YavorD]

I don't agree this is an extreme view. On the contrary i find it hard to grasp on how people are actually advocating for RBH to take weak team(s) to GTs. On top of that saying UAE and Visma are doing it like that, that is just on how it ever was. Then i don't know if we are watching the same sport. Couldn't be further from the truth.

A team consisting 8 climbers, supposed to be team leaders is a weak team to be honest.
That's simply not a team, that's 8 individuals racing their own race.

P.s. UAE are sending Pollitt and Wellens instead of (say) Majka and Vine and Visma are sending Affini iver Tulett. So I presume they're sending a "weak teams" then?

 

[CyclistAbi]

I'm not sure about that. Sometimes they seem to have taken more hits to their heads than the riders.

Luckily only some bruises, not cracked.

Having 7 climbers doesn't get you the best team. Does Visma and UAE only select climbers? Affini and Campenaerts aren't part of their top 8 climbers. Why did they bring them do you think? There is more than just bringing 7 climbers. Not to mention, the leadership issues you get when bringing all of them... How did that workout for UAE when they brought Ayuso?

Tratnik or somebody similar can easily jump it, but i don't expect for a RBH rider to do any of that most of the time, UAE and Visma can and will do that instead.

Lipo will be the leader for the Tour, Remco his superdom and a backup option, Rogla and co bidon carriers.

If they take all the mentioned riders then Rogla can be designated PR manager, as far as i am concerned, pre race.

A team consisting 8 climbers, supposed to be team leaders is a weak team to be honest.
That's simply not a team, that's 8 individuals racing their own race.

P.s. UAE are sending Pollitt and Wellens instead of (say) Majka and Vine and Visma are sending Affini iver Tulett. So I presume they're sending a "weak teams" then?

Seven plus somebody like Tratnik, and they are not all just climbers, most of them are good enough on any terrain. UAE and Visma having two dedicate riders for flat-ish terrain and RBH just one, that is perfectly OK, due to UAE and Visma playing totally different roles. They actually have to and do plan to control the flats, on where RBH doesn't. Plus why are we only talking about flat stages here, podium positions won't be decided on such terrain, they will be decided climbing. So no matter how strong RBH will be on flat terrain, that won't win them a podium position or more.

If by any chance the plan is to actually win it, then it's basically all about climbing.

 

[Berniece]

Tratnik or somebody similar can easily jump it, but i don't expect for a RBH rider to do any of that most of the time, UAE and Visma can and will do that instead.

Again, who is fetching the waterbottles in this scenario?

 

[red_flanders]

I don't agree this is an extreme view. On the contrary i find it hard to grasp on how people are actually advocating for RBH to take weak team(s) to GTs. On top of that saying UAE and Visma are doing it like that, that is just on how it ever was. Then i don't know if we are watching the same sport. Couldn't be further from the truth.

So fervently advocating that forming a team in a way no team has ever formed a team is not an extreme view? Outlier view? Uninformed view?

Literally no one is "advocating for RBH to take weak team(s) to GTs."

Everyone is saying they're not going to take every top climber on their team to the Tour. For reasons which have been explained repeatedly, which actually shouldn't need to be explained to anyone who follows the sport.

As has been said repeatedly. They'll likely take 2 co-leaders, and some very strong lieutenants to help in the mountains. They'll also take some other guys who will do the bulk of the work on flatter stages and early in every stage. Like every team, ever.

It's hard to believe this isn't just pure trolling.

Lipo will be the leader for the Tour, Remco his superdom and a backup option, Rogla and co bidon carriers.

Never mind. THIS is pure trolling. 🤣

 

[CyclistAbi]

Again, who is fetching the waterbottles in this scenario?

Why are you acting like that would ever be a problem with such team, it wouldn't be. Just like the whole debate of flat-ish terrain is misplaced, such team would have no issues with flat-ish terrain.

@red_flanders

So basically are you saying that UAE and Visma don't take their best (climbers) to the Tour? And that RBH doesn't have issues on climbing terrain? On where the supporting team consistently goes MIA after two thirds of the stage. Splitting them up, best climbers, will hence improve that? They will become more competitive at the end of the stages? To be on pair with UAE and Visma in that regards?

 

[Links2003]

I agree with this, but I don't know why that should be especially difficult for Red Bull to achieve. Only Roglic, Remco and Lipo have any real right to expect some form of (co-)leadership at the Tour, and even Roglic must be realising that his days as de facto Tour leader are over. The rest of the riders mentioned - Hindley, Vlasov, Martinez and Pellizzari would surely only expect to play a domestique role at the Tour. After all, Simon Yates won the Giro and then rode the Tour as a support rider for Vingegaard! I wouldn't send Roglic, and I don't honestly think they need all four of Hindley, Vlasov, Martinez and Pellizzari, but I certainly think they can send Lipo and Remco as co-leaders, alongside a hit squad of climbing domestiques.

Of course, RBH isn't the only team facing this challenge. But at RBH in particular, many riders were brought in as captains. So there needs to be clear communication about who will have which role in the future. If that works, it can be a success.

Furthermore, not every rider is good as a captain and as a helper. Almeida is one of the few riders who is really good at both. But there are few others. Some are less motivated as helpers. Others don't do it consciously, but they are much worse as helpers than when they are captains.

This needs to be figured out within the team, and then a plan needs to be made. Often, a pure helper is more important than a rider who is actually better but can only show his strengths when he is captain.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Guys, if you want to solve problems and not make non exiting ones up, there are exactly two problems involved for RBH in regards to the Tour and both do have a name, Pogi and Jonas, the rest should be fine. Rest assured they will be well fed and the wind won't get them and the for any potential leadership issues to be sorted out by UAE and Visma, especially on the climbs on where all will max out.

 

[red_flanders]

@red_flanders

So basically are you saying [insert long paragraph of things I didn't say...]

If you want to know what someone is saying, just read...what they said. Instead of inventing strawmen.

 

[Berniece]

Why are you acting like that would ever be a problem with such team, it wouldn't be. Just like the whole debate of flat-ish terrain is misplaced, such team would have no issues with flat-ish terrain.

Maybe just answer the question. You've got 7 leaders, who is fetching the water bottles?

 

[YavorD]

Seven plus somebody like Tratnik, and they are not all just climbers, most of them are good enough on any terrain. UAE and Visma having two dedicate riders for flat-ish terrain and RBH just one, that is perfectly OK, due to UAE and Visma playing totally different roles. They actually have to and do plan to control the flats, on where RBH doesn't. Plus why are we only talking about flat stages here, podium positions won't be decided on such terrain, they will be decided climbing. So no matter how strong RBH will be on flat terrain, that won't win them a podium position or more.

It's not about being climbers or not. It's about riders KNOWING they are on full support role.
Roglic crashes (not heavily) on stage 2 and he is a minute and Tratnik is needed to protect Lipo/Remco.
Nobody is there to bring him back, because nobody's job is to bring Roglic back.
Then you'll cry about him being "abounded by the team", but that's the team you thought is the best, so...

While if you have Denz or say Zweihoff, whose primary role is to help a leader in trouble, you will get Roglic back.

 

[AmRacer]

Maybe just answer the question. You've got 7 leaders, who is fetching the water bottles?

Remco

 

[SHAD0W93]

What we need next year is that team with a couple stages decided by echelons to stop Bora from getting on the podium since only the mountains matter.

 

[CyclistAbi]

If you want to know what someone is saying, just read...what they said. Instead of inventing strawmen.

Meh. Lets just leave it at we have different opinions. As i can't possibly understand on how one could claim RBH doesn't have a climbing support issues, compared to UAE and Visma, considering your claims on how RBH must do it and on how others do it. They are nowhere near in support of their leader, on when racing that actually matters starts. And no, this is not on how it should be done.

Maybe just answer the question. You've got 7 leaders, who is fetching the water bottles?

That is your problem, you invented it, so you would need to answer that question. The way i see it this is a non issue as nobody would be hungry or thirsty, maybe hungry for love or hungry for more.

It's not about being climbers or not. It's about riders KNOWING they are on full support role.
Roglic crashes (not heavily) on stage 2 and he is a minute and Tratnik is needed to protect Lipo/Remco.
Nobody is there to bring him back, because nobody's job is to bring Roglic back.
Then you'll cry about him being "abounded by the team", but that's the team you thought is the best, so...

While if you have Denz or say Zweihoff, whose primary role is to help a leader in trouble, you will get Roglic back.

I am OK with that, that is the team can abandon Rogla if he crashes for as long as they bring the mentioned riders to the Tour.

What we need next year is that team with a couple stages decided by echelons to stop Bora from getting on the podium since only the mountains matter.

So which ones in your opinion would that stages be?

 

[pastronef]

the only thing I know is the Roglic mums on twitter will have many meltdowns

 

[CyclistAbi]

the only thing I know is the Roglic mums on twitter will have many meltdowns

In any case Rogla will still be a DILF so i don't see an issue here.