Teams & Riders The Red Bull - Bora - Hansgrohe team thread

[Eddy Evenepoel]

At some point, the younger generation will take over.

A younger generation yes, not always the younger generation. When the riders born in the 80s were winning several GTs (Froome, Contador, Nibali etc) we were expecting the new generation of early 90s kids like Quintana, Aru, Dumoulin, Pinot, Bardet (and Landa even if he technically belongs to the 80s) to “take over”. They won a couple of Giros and Vueltas but got quickly washed away by the late 90s kids and a late bloomer from the 80s without picking up a Tour win.

I think it’s a fully reasonable scenario that Pogacar/Vingegaard (and Remco/MVDP in their specialties) never gets overtaken before retirement and that the generation of riders from 2001 to 2005 never will be the absolute best. And that the generation of Pogi/Vinegaard/Remco/MVDP will never really be overtaken.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Only one worth anything is Del Toro, and he keeps getting mauled by Remco

Classics are not GTs. You should be careful.
Vingegaard is worse than Del Toro in classics for example and he is better than Remco in GTs.

 

[Peyroteo94]

A younger generation yes, not always the younger generation. When the riders born in the 80s were winning several GTs (Froome, Contador, Nibali etc) we were expecting the new generation of early 90s kids like Quintana, Aru, Dumoulin, Pinot, Bardet (and Landa even if he technically belongs to the 80s) to “take over”. They won a couple of Giros and Vueltas but got quickly washed away by the late 90s kids and a late bloomer from the 80s without picking up a Tour win.

I think it’s a fully reasonable scenario that Pogacar/Vingegaard (and Remco/MVDP in their specialties) never gets overtaken before retirement and that the generation of riders from 2001 to 2005 never will be the absolute best. And that the generation of Pogi/Vinegaard/Remco/MVDP will never really be overtaken.

Great post.
But I was talking only about GTs and here Remco is not an outlier (being an outlier is where his level is clearly better than others like TTs or hilly classics).
The way Del Toro and Seixas are improving, shows Remco will probably be surpassed by both of them in 2 years and we still had riders like Almeida or Lipo who weren't close to Remco 3 years ago and now a lot of people already think Remco is not better than them.
IMHO, next year will be very important to Remco, he needs to make a significant leap in performance ( stage races) and this can be possible due to Bora (new team, better training, etc). If he doesn't improve, I will maintain my opinion he will not win a GT ever again.

 

[Põhja Konn]

Great post.
But I was talking only about GTs and here Remco is not an outlier (being an outlier is where his level is clearly better than others like TTs or hilly classics).
The way Del Toro and Seixas are improving, shows Remco will probably be surpassed by both of them in 2 years and we still had riders like Almeida or Lipo who weren't close to Remco 3 years ago and now a lot of people already think Remco is not better than them.
IMHO, next year will be very important to Remco, he needs to make a significant leap in performance ( stage races) and this can be possible due to Bora (new team, better training, etc). If he doesn't improve, I will maintain my opinion he will not win a GT ever again.

The level Remco showed in 2024 Tour is high enough to go in as a favourite for any GT Pog and Vinge isn't riding. Personally I don't expect any significant performance leaps from him as he as been pro too long for something like that to be all too realistic. The key is to reach that level with enough consistency and he should amass more than respectable GT palmares for someone whose greatest strenghts lie elsewhere.

 

[red_flanders]

The level Remco showed in 2024 Tour is high enough to go in as a favourite for any GT Pog and Vinge isn't riding. Personally I don't expect any significant performance leaps from him as he as been pro too long for something like that to be all too realistic. The key is to reach that level with enough consistency and he should amass more than respectable GT palmares for someone whose greatest strenghts lie elsewhere.

Pogi made a leap. Not sure why Remco can’t.

 

[Peyroteo94]

The level Remco showed in 2024 Tour is high enough to go in as a favourite for any GT Pog and Vinge isn't riding. Personally I don't expect any significant performance leaps from him as he as been pro too long for something like that to be all too realistic. The key is to reach that level with enough consistency and he should amass more than respectable GT palmares for someone whose greatest strenghts lie elsewhere.

Almeida is improving so I don't think Remco can just show his 2024 TdF level and he will win a GT against everyone not named Pogacar/Vingegaard.
Almeida took a significant leap this year, nothing suggests he will not make the same next year.
Lipo and Del Toro will improve too, I'm not sure Remco can rely on his 2024 TdF level to win a GT.

 

[Oldman]

Great post.
But I was talking only about GTs and here Remco is not an outlier (being an outlier is where his level is clearly better than others like TTs or hilly classics).
The way Del Toro and Seixas are improving, shows Remco will probably be surpassed by both of them in 2 years and we still had riders like Almeida or Lipo who weren't close to Remco 3 years ago and now a lot of people already think Remco is not better than them.
IMHO, next year will be very important to Remco, he needs to make a significant leap in performance ( stage races) and this can be possible due to Bora (new team, better training, etc). If he doesn't improve, I will maintain my opinion he will not win a GT ever again.

I'd say Del Toro will show the most challenging form improvement. His team can support him as well as any and would be a good GC threat in races where Tadej is either training or absent. There can be some exciting matchups with these young dudes, for sure.

 

[Põhja Konn]

Pogi made a leap. Not sure why Remco can’t.

Not impossible obviously, but not too likely either. Pog is pretty much alone in doing such mid-career leap among his current rivals. and I generally think Remco has by now reached his physical peak years and consequently any improvements are more likely going to be incremental. But yeah, change of teams can sometimes work wonders, so it wouldn't really be a shock if I turn out to be completely wrong.

 

[Oldman]

Not impossible obviously, but not too likely either. Pog is pretty much alone in doing such mid-career leap among his current rivals. and I generally think Remco has by now reached his physical peak years and consequently any improvements are more likely going to be incremental. But yeah, change of teams can sometimes work wonders, so it wouldn't really be a shock if I turn out to be completely wrong.

As most have observed; Remco's upside in events to challenge Pogacar has likely been achieved. If it's the GTs he wants to challenge for the win it's a whole new project. He might do it. He might not want to do it.

 

[Unchained]

A couple of things I have read say that Bora is the second best funded team and Visma looking like 3rd or possibly 4th best bank roll..I see Bora as in a great spot if Roglic is used correctly, with development and improvement of Lipowitz.

 

[Berniece]

Almeida is improving so I don't think Remco can just show his 2024 TdF level and he will win a GT against everyone not named Pogacar/Vingegaard.
Almeida took a significant leap this year, nothing suggests he will not make the same next year.
Lipo and Del Toro will improve too, I'm not sure Remco can rely on his 2024 TdF level to win a GT.

Everyone can improve except Evenepoel.

 

[Põhja Konn]

Almeida is improving so I don't think Remco can just show his 2024 TdF level and he will win a GT against everyone not named Pogacar/Vingegaard.
Almeida took a significant leap this year, nothing suggests he will not make the same next year.
Lipo and Del Toro will improve too, I'm not sure Remco can rely on his 2024 TdF level to win a GT.

Pog didn't make a particular leap between 2024 and 2025 anymore, so it is equally possible no more is coming for Almeida too after this season. But generally I think Remco has to go the furthest out of his comfort zone in order to be competitive in GT-s compared to his rivals. Hence the need work out a way to consistently achieve his best level for targeted GTs., right now his miss rate is rather high.

 

[TrekCyclist]

Pogi made a leap. Not sure why Remco can’t.

Might also be that 2024 TdF was already Remco's leap. In terms of GTs.

 

[Cycling111]

Might also be that 2024 TdF was already Remco's leap. In terms of GTs.

Furthermore, Pogacar had already won two Tours and finished second in two others, winning mountain stages. Remco wasn't even on par with Vingegaard on a stage in 2024. Remco's leap to win would have to be enormous, and as you rightly say, by 2024 his climbing ability had already improved significantly.
This comparison is meaningless. Even in his worst Tour, Pogacar was a much more consistent and winning climber. Remco, even with a significant leap in 2024, couldn't match Vingegaard on any stage.

 

[Berniece]

Might also be that 2024 TdF was already Remco's leap. In terms of GTs.

We’ll know next year if he stays injury free and doesn’t improve anymore

 

[vappaxbipmv]

Pogi made a leap. Not sure why Remco can’t.

Pogacar didn't make a leap, he was consistently improving. Most people just watch the Tour and there was a big difference between 2022 and 2024, but most forget that he rode 2023 after a bad preparation and still managed to drop Jonas a few times

I'm not saying Remco can't improve but it won't be by some huge amount

 

[TrekCyclist]

tbh, RedBull Bora should probaby be more focusing on what possible leap Lipowitz is still able to make

 

[Peyroteo94]

Pog didn't make a particular leap between 2024 and 2025 anymore, so it is equally possible no more is coming for Almeida too after this season. But generally I think Remco has to go the furthest out of his comfort zone in order to be competitive in GT-s compared to his rivals. Hence the need work out a way to consistently achieve his best level for targeted GTs., right now his miss rate is rather high.

He was better in classics and his Tour was hampered by a crash IMO. But if I had to vote, Pogacar was better in classics and worse in GTs.

 

[Berniece]

Pogacar didn't make a leap, he was consistently improving. Most people just watch the Tour and there was a big difference between 2022 and 2024, but most forget that he rode 2023 after a bad preparation and still managed to drop Jonas a few times

I'm not saying Remco can't improve but it won't be by some huge amount

The jump from 2023 to 2024 was huge for Pogacar. Not consistently at all with previous years. Just look at his 1 day race results

 

[vappaxbipmv]

The jump from 2023 to 2024 was huge for Pogacar. Not consistently at all with previous years. Just look at his 1 day race results

In 2023 he won Flanders and Lombardia and was 3rd in Worlds. 2024 he win LBL, Lombardia and Worlds on a more suitable course. I don't see that huge improvement, at least not in the most important results

 

[Cookster15]

Remco wasn't even on par with Vingegaard on a stage in 2024

On a stage in 2024 TdF? In the 2024 TdF I think Remco was even a little stronger than Vingegaard on stages 4 (Galibier) and 19 (Bonette/Isola). Jonas admitted he was on a bad day at Isola but that was still very impressive climbing from Remco late in the 3rd week.

In that Isola finish Vingegaard even thanked Remco for pulling him to the line. Here is a video of that - watch from 4'07".

2024 TdF finish Remco / Vingegaard

Of course Pogacar is on another level but we should not devalue what Remco showed that Tour. It showed what he is capable of.