Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Logic-is-your-friend]

It’s not true that advantage of more aero rider is automatically bigger on a road bike than on a TT bike. Reasons for that are explained in my post.

A rider who is more comfortable on a TT bike will have less issues assuming an aero position on a road bike, where as a rider who has more problems on a TT bike, will be even worse on a road bike. Take it to the bank.

 

[bNator]

A rider who is more comfortable on a TT bike will have less issues assuming an aero position on a road bike, where as a rider who has more problems on a TT bike, will be even worse on a road bike. Take it to the bank.

There are so many arguments to dispute your claim I wouldn’t even know where to begin with. Not to mention we’ve got software and wind tunnels to predict that kind of stuff as it can’t be simply guessed…

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

There are so many arguments to dispute your claim I wouldn’t even know where to begin with.

Right.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Guys, on stage 2 of the Tour Vlasov, Hindley, Bernal, De Plus etc made up at least 20 seconds to Pogačar and Vingegaard on the flat, thereby proving that Tadej is the next Ivan Sosa.

 

[bNator]

Right.

Ok then, you asked for it... You said:

A rider who is more comfortable on a TT bike will have less issues assuming an aero position on a road bike, where as a rider who has more problems on a TT bike, will be even worse on a road bike. Take it to the bank.

I don't even know how you can come to that conslusion. It's clear as day, that TT position is more difficult to achieve and maintain while still being efficient at pedalling. And while "clear as day" is not a very convincing proof, think about all those riders who make compromise to their TT position to sacrifice less pedalling power. So once we establish TT position is more challenging to maintain effectively than "normal" position, it makes very little sense to assume that road bike aero position is more selective "aero filter" than TT position. Which means in reality, it's the exact opposite to what you said. [[content deleted]]

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I don't even know how you can come to that conslusion. It's clear as day, that TT position is more difficult to achieve and maintain while still being efficient at pedalling. And while "clear as day" is not a very convincing proof, think about all those riders who make compromise to their TT position to sacrifice less pedalling power. So once we establish TT position is more challenging to maintain effectively than "normal" position, it makes very little sense to assume that road bike aero position is more selective "aero filter" than TT position. Which means in reality, it's the exact opposite to what you said. The bank doesn't like it.

[[content deleted]]

The gain for a rider who is not naturally aero, from a road bike, to a TT bike, is a lot larger, than it is for a rider who is already aero to begin with. Even when the aero rider will still have an advantage on a TT bike, the difference will be smaller than it would on a road bike.

 

[bNator]

[[content deleted]]

The gain for a rider who is not naturally aero, from a road bike, to a TT bike, is a lot larger, than it is for a rider who is already aero to begin with. Even when the aero rider will still have an advantage on a TT bike, the difference will be smaller than it would on a road bike.

This is not what we were talking about but never mind… It’s still just a theory, for which you have presented zero proof. I can go from another POV and say TT bike exposes weakness in riders posture and challenges the limits of their dexterity therefore their relative gains are smaller.

Point is, we don’t really know and can’t claim for sure that Pog’s gain from TT bike is bigger than Remcos. It’s a very unfounded claim and if you insist on it, I’m afraid I can’t do anything else to convince you otherwise…

 

[saunaking]

Guys, on stage 2 of the Tour Vlasov, Hindley, Bernal, De Plus etc made up at least 20 seconds to Pogačar and Vingegaard on the flat, thereby proving that Tadej is the next Ivan Sosa.

sorry man, next Ivan Sosa is already taken, Chad Underpants

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

This is not what we were talking about but never mind…

It is exactly what we are talking about. When the potential gain is smaller for an already aerodynamic rider from a road bike to a TT bike, compared to a lesser aerodynamic rider, then this also means that starting from your own statement ("Being better on flat TT doesn’t necessarily translate to being a better rouleur") that it in fact does mean the loss (as opposed to gain) on a road bike (compared to a TT bike) is bigger for the lesser aerodynamic rider, in this case, Pogacar. It's the exact same argument, just looking at it from the opposite end. And we all agree Evenepoel is the more aerodynamic rider.

To make it easier to understand, when you have two cars of the same weight, same size, equal suspension etc, but one has a more powerful engine and the other has better aerodynamics. Now, assuming you let the same people rework the body to make them more aerodynamic, which car do you believe can make the bigger improvements? The one that already is aerodynamic, or the one that is not so aerodynamic but more powerful?

 

[AmRacer]

It is exactly what we are talking about. When the potential gain is smaller for an already aerodynamic rider from a road bike to a TT bike, compared to a lesser aerodynamic rider, then this also means that starting from your own statement ("Being better on flat TT doesn’t necessarily translate to being a better rouleur") that it in fact does mean the loss (as opposed to gain) on a road bike (compared to a TT bike) is bigger for the lesser aerodynamic rider, in this case, Pogacar. It's the exact same argument, just looking at it from the opposite end. And we all agree Evenepoel is the more aerodynamic rider.

To make it easier to understand, when you have two cars of the same weight, same size, equal suspension etc, but one has a more powerful engine and the other has better aerodynamics. Now, assuming you let the same people rework the body to make them more aerodynamic, which car do you believe can make the bigger improvements? The one that already is aerodynamic, or the one that is not so aerodynamic but more powerful?

So, it depends of the relative aerodynamic difference remains after body rework.

 

[bNator]

It is exactly what we are talking about. When the potential gain is smaller for an already aerodynamic rider from a road bike to a TT bike, compared to a lesser aerodynamic rider, then this also means that starting from your own statement ("Being better on flat TT doesn’t necessarily translate to being a better rouleur") that it in fact does mean the loss (as opposed to gain) on a road bike (compared to a TT bike) is bigger for the lesser aerodynamic rider, in this case, Pogacar. It's the exact same argument, just looking at it from the opposite end. And we all agree Evenepoel is the more aerodynamic rider.

To make it easier to understand, when you have two cars of the same weight, same size, equal suspension etc, but one has a more powerful engine and the other has better aerodynamics. Now, assuming you let the same people rework the body to make them more aerodynamic, which car do you believe can make the bigger improvements? The one that already is aerodynamic, or the one that is not so aerodynamic but more powerful?

We weren’t talking about the same thing. You were over-simplifying and that’s why you think it’s the same thing, looked at from opposite direction. In one post you were talking about riders who were not comfortable in TT position and in the other post you were talking about riders, who have bad aero on a road bike. This is not necessarily the same group of riders. There might be some overlap but in general, these are two different issues.

You try to simplify the whole thing into a set of very simple rules (which don’t exist in nature but are made up by you), such as:
1. There are aero riders and non-aero riders
2. Aero riders are more aero than non-aero riders in any position.
3. The better the tech, the less aero gains are made by aero riders.
And I’m telling you it’s just not that simple…

 

[Berniece]

We weren’t talking about the same thing. You were over-simplifying and that’s why you think it’s the same thing, looked at from opposite direction. In one post you were talking about riders who were not comfortable in TT position and in the other post you were talking about riders, who have bad aero on a road bike. This is not necessarily the same group of riders. There might be some overlap but in general, these are two different issues.

You try to simplify the whole thing into a set of very simple rules (which don’t exist in nature but are made up by you), such as:
1. There are aero riders and non-aero riders
2. Aero riders are more aero than non-aero riders in any position.
3. The better the tech, the less aero gains are made by aero riders.
And I’m telling you it’s just not that simple…

It's a bit silly to expect a perfectly sound solution to such a problem. With such a view you can start putting everything in doubt written on this forum. Eventually we are only trying to deduce information based on logic, and make an educated guess.

 

[wheresmybrakes]

We weren’t talking about the same thing. You were over-simplifying and that’s why you think it’s the same thing, looked at from opposite direction. In one post you were talking about riders who were not comfortable in TT position and in the other post you were talking about riders, who have bad aero on a road bike. This is not necessarily the same group of riders. There might be some overlap but in general, these are two different issues.

You try to simplify the whole thing into a set of very simple rules (which don’t exist in nature but are made up by you), such as:
1. There are aero riders and non-aero riders
2. Aero riders are more aero than non-aero riders in any position.
3. The better the tech, the less aero gains are made by aero riders.
And I’m telling you it’s just not that simple…

Dude, you are never ever ever gonna win. Many have tried and failed, and many will try and fail. Just give up man. Folk are getting a bit fed up with the battles.

 

[Berniece]

Here's a picture of Evenepoel in the national jersey

 

[bNator]

It's a bit silly to expect a perfectly sound solution to such a problem. With such a view you can start putting everything in doubt written on this forum. Eventually we are only trying to deduce information based on logic, and make an educated guess.

So what's wrong with saying Remco is likely a better rouleur than Pog but it remains to be confirmed? I think it's a perfectly reasonable position, much more reasonable than Remco is a better rouleur than Pog because better TT-ers are always better rouleurs. Yet somehow it's me who's being silly?

 

[Berniece]

So what's wrong with saying Remco is likely a better rouleur than Pog but it remains to be confirmed? I think it's a perfectly reasonable position, much more reasonable than Remco is a better rouleur than Pog because better TT-ers are always better rouleurs. Yet somehow it's me who's being silly?

Because Remco has shown much more than Pogacar to do big solo finishes on rolling and flat terrain.

 

[AmRacer]

Because Remco has shown much more than Pogacar to do big solo finishes on rolling and flat terrain.

Are you sure about that statistic?

 

[Berniece]

Are you sure about that statistic?

Yes, we even discussed this statistic it in this topic. Maybe a year ago? Not sure how we could find it. That statistic was about # solo finishes, and I also think the average distance of such a solo finish.

 

[AmRacer]

Yes, we even discussed this statistic it in this topic. Maybe a year ago? Not sure how we could find it. That statistic was about # solo finishes, and I also think the average distance of such a solo finish.

The type of race should also be considered as a factor. It also which races each one target. This year, Pog has a few more solo finishes in all kinds of terrain.

 

[Berniece]

The type of race should also be considered as a factor. It also which races each one target. This year, Pog has a few more solo finishes in all kinds of terrain.

Yes, but even then the difference was staggering

 

[AmRacer]

Yes, but even then the difference was staggering

Maybe Pog went solo on MTF's and so on. Just a few km long attacks.

 

[Berniece]

Maybe Pog went solo on MTF's and so on. Just a few km long attacks.

Which isn't really rouleur territory.

 

[AmRacer]

Which isn't really rouleur territory.

Agree to that, so back to statistics again. Pog maybe haven't done so many rouleur territory one day races. When going for GC, you cannot go full gas on those kind of stages.

 

[Berniece]

Agree to that, so back to statistics again. Pog maybe haven't done so many rouleur territory one day races. When going for GC, you cannot go full gas on those kind of stages.

Sure, and that can be said about everything then. Evenepoel only rode 1 TDF in his life, Pogacar 5, so maybe Evenepoel is the better TDF rider, we don't know

 

[bNator]

Sure, and that can be said about everything then. Evenepoel only rode 1 TDF in his life, Pogacar 5, so maybe Evenepoel is the better TDF rider, we don't know

Evenepoel was soundly beaten by Pog in their direct confrontation in TDF which means we do know. When comparing their rouleur performances, you are doing indirect comprasions.