Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[peterfin]

Spending 2 days in windtunnels to reap the benefits in every TT next year is definitely time well spend. And who knows, maybe he tries the hour record next autumn?

 

[Berniece]

Spending 2 days in windtunnels to reap the benefits in every TT next year is definitely time well spend. And who knows, maybe he tries the hour record next autumn?

Not to mention it always comes in handy to win a bigger WT stage race, which is long overdue

 

[AlpRaid]

Everyone, specialized is legally not allowed to share tests and results with Bora that were previously accomplished for QS.

This is likely the main reason for the two days of testing, so Bora themselves have the data and can suggest tweaks etc. if they think they have any.

Not sure we should be expecting massive or even important changes in terms of his TT position. Maybe Dan Bingham might have some thoughts, but I think many here are reading too much into tests that literally HAD to be done so Bora had data to work with.

 

[red_flanders]

Everyone, specialized is legally not allowed to share tests and results with Bora that were previously accomplished for QS.

This is likely the main reason for the two days of testing, so Bora themselves have the data and can suggest tweaks etc. if they think they have any.

Not sure we should be expecting massive or even important changes in terms of his TT position. Maybe Dan Bingham might have some thoughts, but I think many here are reading too much into tests that literally HAD to be done so Bora had data to work with.

Really interesting and insightful point. Never would have occurred to me.

Curious if that's coming from inside information you have about the particulars, or just and informed guess? Thanks.

 

[AlpRaid]

Really interesting and insightful point. Never would have occurred to me.

Curious if that's coming from inside information you have about the particulars, or just and informed guess? Thanks.

neither. but thank you for even intimating that I might have "inside info".

it was an article (I am sorry, I forget where) that explained how this type of thing happens -- a little bit ago when it was formally announced he was going to Bora.

 

[Berniece]

Everyone, specialized is legally not allowed to share tests and results with Bora that were previously accomplished for QS.

Seems very weird to me. The rider starts the same, it’s data about him, can’t imagine this being kept a secret. I would also not accept this if I was Evenepoel. Why would he waste his time doing the same thing over again

 

[vappaxbipmv]

Spending 2 days in windtunnels to reap the benefits in every TT next year is definitely time well spend. And who knows, maybe he tries the hour record next autumn?

“Yes, I will do it, but you’ll have to wait a few more years,” Evenepoel told L'Équipe. “I think there’s a way to beat it.”

Domestique article

 

[Berflamand]

Everyone, specialized is legally not allowed to share tests and results with Bora that were previously accomplished for QS.

This is likely the main reason for the two days of testing, so Bora themselves have the data and can suggest tweaks etc. if they think they have any.

Not sure we should be expecting massive or even important changes in terms of his TT position. Maybe Dan Bingham might have some thoughts, but I think many here are reading too much into tests that literally HAD to be done so Bora had data to work with.

Thanks for the info, I didn't know that.

But I do think in this case there would probably have been an agreement between all parties to share the data because it just doesn't make sense to me that one of the parties involved would object to sharing the data considering Remco left QS in good faith and the good relationship between Specialized and both QS and RB-Bora. But yeah, RB-Bora probably wanted to do their own tests as well.

But even if that would be one of the reasons for the trip, I'm sure it's not the only reason. It's Remco's fifth or sixth trip to the Specialized Headquarters which means he has made the trip almost every year. I think it's just something he likes to do as he wants to keep looking for every possible gain. In the article he's described as being as meticulous as an F1 driver regarding the tests.

I do agree that any changes in his TT position will likely be minimal as it doesn't seem there's much more room for improvement but I guess we'll have to wait for the first TT's in the new season to judge that.

 

[KoopaCycling]

On that point, sporza just released an article in which they go a little bit deeper on the subject.

"We delen de data niet met een nieuw team": waarom het bezoek van Remco Evenepoel in de VS deze keer geen routineklus was | sporza

Home sweet home. Remco Evenepoel vertoefde de voorbije dagen in de VS, waar hij met zijn nieuwe staf van Red Bull-Bora-Hansgrohe aan de slag ging in de windtunnel van fietsconstructeur Specialized. Niet alleen om zijn aerodynamische setup nog wat meer te verfijnen, wél omdat het door zijn...

sporza.be

Seems the biggest thing to discover is how his new suit affects stuff, as well as 're-discover data' in different race conditions, how climb percentages affect his aerodynamics, ...

 

[Berniece]

On that point, sporza just released an article in which they go a little bit deeper on the subject.

"We delen de data niet met een nieuw team": waarom het bezoek van Remco Evenepoel in de VS deze keer geen routineklus was | sporza

Home sweet home. Remco Evenepoel vertoefde de voorbije dagen in de VS, waar hij met zijn nieuwe staf van Red Bull-Bora-Hansgrohe aan de slag ging in de windtunnel van fietsconstructeur Specialized. Niet alleen om zijn aerodynamische setup nog wat meer te verfijnen, wél omdat het door zijn...

sporza.be

Seems the biggest thing to discover is how his new suit affects stuff, as well as 're-discover data' in different race conditions, how climb percentages affect his aerodynamics, ...

I find it weird that SOQ wouldn't just share that data with RBH... Data on Evenepoel that is.

 

[KoopaCycling]

I find it weird that SOQ wouldn't just share that data with RBH... Data on Evenepoel that is.

Standard practice i guess. Still they have no GT/GC ambitions in the foreseeable future but for Landa and Van Wilder. Nor any TT riders coming up that will be able to compete with the very best methinks (except maybe Hayter). they are mostly going back to the classics. So they would lose little by sharing them. Honestly i would not be surprised (if Red Bull even bothered to ask for the data), that it would be Jurgen Foré to say no. But that's all just speculation. But from the outside looking in, they (at first glance) do not seem to have any real reason not to share his data with his new team. So Jurgen Foré is what I would land on, if Red Bull asked and Soudal had refused. Could be entirely wrong ofc.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

My guess would have been that Evenepoel would have a right to data that is about him: in UK law there is a thing called a Subject Access Request, which can only be refused in fairly limited circumstances. I'd be surprised if there is not something similar in EU/Belgian law.

 

[KoopaCycling]

My guess would have been that Evenepoel would have a right to data that is about him: in UK law there is a thing called a Subject Access Request, which can only be refused in fairly limited circumstances. I'd be surprised if there is not something similar in EU/Belgian law.

Sports and law don't mix well though. If an employee wants to quit his job and start work somewhere else, by law, that should not be a problem. So long as you don't tell secrets, complete your notice period. If you try that in sports...

And it's understandable what with sponsors, ... .

I was actually surprised at the WVA verdict against his former team. I was expecting a mini cycling version of the Bosman arrest. Well I understand his freedom of movement was not actually restricted, and he needed to pay up cause of breaching a private contract.

It was still a case that was situated at the edge of EU law and Sports law. In any case, what i'm trying to say is, sport law and regular law seem to work slightly different.

 

[AlpRaid]

Seems very weird to me. The rider starts the same, it’s data about him, can’t imagine this being kept a secret. I would also not accept this if I was Evenepoel. Why would he waste his time doing the same thing over again

I know but the way I understand it is:

1. QS owned their testing data that they paid for and got with their experts (Remco doesn’t)

2. It’s basically a way of allowing a bike company to sponsor more than one team while not seeming like they are sharing knowledge or secrets between those teams.

Thats at least how I see the logic.

 

[red_flanders]

Seems very weird to me. The rider starts the same, it’s data about him, can’t imagine this being kept a secret. I would also not accept this if I was Evenepoel. Why would he waste his time doing the same thing over again

I can think of a few reasons. One, if AlpRaid is right (sounds quite accurate to me), there’s a lot of team incentive to do it. Two, there are always improvements to be made, and the shoulder thing may be affecting his position or where he’s comfortable. Three, a free trip to NorCal at the most beautiful time of the year isn’t exactly torture. There’s a lot to see and do. Lots of contacts and influential people. Maybe he brings his wife. Nice weekend in Carmel, Monterey, or Pacific Grove, or meetings and contacts in Silicon Valley…maybe a couple days in Napa (much further north). Not so bad.

 

[acm]

Amazing work ethic. A bit surprised Lipowitz didn’t join them, he might go at a later time.

4 weeks of holiday and the build up for next season will start

Every "new" Bora rider that has potential in GC or TT goes to Specialized headquarters in California. Roglič was there two years ago and Lipowitz was at Catesby tunnel in UK this year.
https://www.redbullborahansgrohe.co...tour-debut-in-iconic-catesby-tunnel-aero-test

 

[Oldman]

I can think of a few reasons. One, if AlpRaid is right (sounds quite accurate to me), there’s a lot of team incentive to do it. Two, there are always improvements to be made, and the shoulder thing may be affecting his position or where he’s comfortable. Three, a free trip to NorCal at the most beautiful time of the year isn’t exactly torture. There’s a lot to see and do. Lots of contacts and influential people. Maybe he brings his wife. Nice weekend in Carmel, Monterey, or Pacific Grove, or meetings and contacts in Silicon Valley…maybe a couple days in Napa (much further north). Not so bad.

Red: you are so right on all counts. The shoulder thing affects all phases of his game and it's evolutionary so new data is relevant. Norcal and San Diego are great from now to February; you see many Euros there that enjoy the laid back/non invasive environment.
Another two cents: Remco must/should have a wealth of position data so he's not at square one to relate to new equipment. The other cent: we're talking Red Bull that sponsors the best downhill skiers and a F1 team that has dominated the sport largely through great engineering association. If they don't know the physical and aero secrets already, they can reinvent them. Remco is definitely in a good place with a contract term and team to support him.

 

[KoopaCycling]

In a way. It could be more interesting to see if something changes on his road bike. Unlikely but more interesting.

 

[rghysens]

Not to mention it always comes in handy to win a bigger WT stage race, which is long overdue

And exactly how many bigger WT stage races have a decent amount of itt?

 

[Berniece]

And exactly how many bigger WT stage races have a decent amount of itt?

We don’t know most parcours yet, but Basque last year. You need 10-20km’s of ITT, and then Evenepoel should be able to defend that leaders jersey against anyone not named Pogacar or Vingegaard

 

[Red Rick]

And exactly how many bigger WT stage races have a decent amount of itt?

Why should that always be the excuse for not beating everyone minus Pogacar and Vingegaard.

 

[Berniece]

Why should that always be the excuse for not beating everyone minus Pogacar and Vingegaard.

It’s true, he shouldn’t need them, it makes it easier though

 

[peterfin]

Why should that always be the excuse for not beating everyone minus Pogacar and Vingegaard.

It's not an excuse but it is definitely easier for him to win with a decent TT, especially when he is not in his top shape yet. To frame it different: he has no excuse beating everyone minus Pogacar and Vingegaard in a one week race with a decent TT.

 

[YavorD]

It's not an excuse but it is definitely easier for him to win with a decent TT, especially when he is not in his top shape yet. To frame it different: he has no excuse beating everyone minus Pogacar and Vingegaard in a one week race with a decent TT.

But how much is a "decent TT" in one week races nowadays?
GT's, except for the Giro has less than 40 kilometres (flat..ish) TT, so 20 should be considered decent for the one week stage races.

 

[Netserk]

But how much is a "decent TT" in one week races nowadays?
GT's, except for the Giro has less than 40 kilometres (flat..ish) TT, so 20 should be considered decent for the one week stage races.

Unfortunately, decent is 10-15 km. 25+ should be the norm though.